The Tank 11'12 thread.

[Special-K]

I still hope Utah wins so we can get a better pick out of the Spurs, but my goodness what a bunch of salty little boy Jazz fans. Dont be mad at us for landing the 7 pick. Be mad at Curry getting hurt, TOR losing the coin flip and Lee going down. Why on earth would we call timeouts, draw up plays and try to win 25 games? Get a life and move on.

[turk3d]

As for those two TWolves games we won but shouldn't have: OUTANKED AND OUTFLANKED!

[Jefff]

Just to be more clear: not just GS sucks for tanking, all teams that do so, they suck. I wrote here cuz the jazz were directly concerned, but IMHO losing on purpose it's a shame. Doing so for a 7th pick it's even worse. I was a bit of GS fan, dating from Mullin days, and more recently, for Nellie's game, but keeping a loose mentality with an already young and promising core that you have for a pick (7th, and you still loose it the next year), it's insane. You need a new winning mentality, not one more average young player that arguably won't change bad habs. But if you're comfortable with mediocrity.... you'll have no problems with 7 more years of lottery.

[Quazza]

Just to be more clear: not just GS sucks for tanking, all teams that do so, they suck. I wrote here cuz the jazz were directly concerned, but IMHO losing on purpose it's a shame. Doing so for a 7th pick it's even worse. I was a bit of GS fan, dating from Mullin days, and more recently, for Nellie's game, but keeping a loose mentality with an already young and promising core that you have for a pick (7th, and you still loose it the next year), it's insane. You need a new winning mentality, not one more average young player that arguably won't change bad habs. But if you're comfortable with mediocrity.... you'll have no problems with 7 more years of lottery.

*lose

go away

[EvanZ]

Jeff, come back here when you can spell your name correctly.

[floppymoose]

Trying to be as objective as possible about my Warriors, here's what I saw that could be construed as tanking:

* in the last two games of the season Mark Jackson said he was going to give some meaningful minutes (not garbage time) to some players who had been at the end of the bench, in order to better evaluate whether these guys were going to be asked back next season. For all practical purposes this meant Chris Wright, though I think it also meant expanding the role of Dominic Mcguire some and running him at point forward when Jenkins was out. It also meant going big a lot as Tyler has been get lots of court time to develop and Gladness is, I think, being evaluated for a possible return depending on what the backup C market looks like (I could be wrong about Gladness - not sure). Jackson did exactly that, cutting back on Klay and Rush some to give Wright some time, and playing Tyler until he was either dead or fouled out. You can say that was tanking, I guess, but it served a legitimate purpose (just like Spurs resting their starters for the playoffs served a legitimate purpose) and was only the last two games, not the last 25.

* in the final game, they didn't call a timeout down 6 with 14 secs left. They did the right thing not to foul before that, despite the cries of some Jazz fans. They were down 4 with 15 secs left and the Spurs had to shoot. They challenged the shot well, but Mills made it anyway. He was on fire. I don't think you can foul there when their shot clock is expiring - you try to get the rebound and score, then foul. But had this been a playoff game I think Jackson would have taken a timeout down 6 with 14 ticks left. So you can say he tanked the very end of that game. Did it make a difference? Probably not, but at least I can understand being irritated at that.

That's it. All the guys we sat out really were hurt. There was no DNP - Rest. And the players gave it their best all those games, much to our chagrin when they beat Minny TWICE after being 20 and 21, and when they just crushed the Kings at Arco.

We've seen this happen to the Warriors before. Two years ago they were decimated by injuries and only won 26 games. That team looked a lot like the post-trade, post-Lee injury Warriors this season, but no one accused them of tanking because there was no protected pick situation.

It would be a lot easier to take the complaints from the Jazz fans seriously if you focused on stuff that was actually true. When you imply the Warriors threw 20 games, or made up injuries, you're just going to get ridiculed because we watched the games and know that wasn't true.

[EvanZ]

Jazz won 26 games in 2005, which enabled them to draft Deron Williams.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Any Jazz fan who complains about tanking is a hypocrite. Period.

[BROWN]

My thoughts exactly, these guys did the exact same thing to get Deron Williams... and now their crying that the Warriors did it to get into the lottery and secure their pick?

I thought they already have a good young core, and some of them have said that it's better than ours (Curry/Klay/Lee/Bogut). They can wait till next year to get our pick..

[Quazza]

My thoughts exactly, these guys did the exact same thing to get Deron Williams... and now their crying that the Warriors did it to get into the lottery and secure their pick?

I thought they already have a good young core, and some of them have said that it's better than ours (Curry/Klay/Lee/Bogut). They can wait till next year to get our pick..

yup, if we're as bad as they say, and encouraging "a losing culture" they should be happy, as next years pick, will be even better for them!

Won't it?

[Jester_]

Just to be more clear: not just GS sucks for tanking, all teams that do so, they suck. I wrote here cuz the jazz were directly concerned, but IMHO losing on purpose it's a shame. Doing so for a 7th pick it's even worse. I was a bit of GS fan, dating from Mullin days, and more recently, for Nellie's game, but keeping a loose mentality with an already young and promising core that you have for a pick (7th, and you still loose it the next year), it's insane. You need a new winning mentality, not one more average young player that arguably won't change bad habs. But if you're comfortable with mediocrity.... you'll have no problems with 7 more years of lottery.

Utah won 26 games to tank for Deron Williams. In 1983 and 1984 they lucked out and drafted Karl Malone and Stockton at 13 and 16 respectively. Your team was lucky enough to get 2 hall of fame players with late lotto picks in subsequent years. Last year you got lucky with NJN gifting you a ridiculous amount of assets for bald penis.

You and the rest of the Jazz fans need to stop deluding yourself into thinking you have a "winning culture". You've lucked out time after time again and you've been blessed with having a halfway competent front office. The one year when the luck of the draw didn't work, you tanked to get D-Will. Meanwhile, when our new FO decides to do everything in its power to step out of mediocrity (where we have been the last 20 years), by tanking and making high risk trades, you and the rest of your lot have the nerve to come over here and say we're perpetuating mediocrity? I'm sorry that for the first time in Jazz history you didn't luck out again by getting a 7th pick for absolutely nothing, but maybe your spoiled little asses can do with a little humility.

GTFO hypocrite. Winning culture my ass. Pathetic fanbase.

[Jefff]

Jeff, come back here when you can spell your name correctly.

sorry, english is'nt my first language (actually is the fourth); nor is the loooooosing mentality.

P.s. as for the name, that comes from an alliteration, between the Hornaceck's name and the net sound on a a perfect shot

[Jefff]

Just to be more clear: not just GS sucks for tanking, all teams that do so, they suck. I wrote here cuz the jazz were directly concerned, but IMHO losing on purpose it's a shame. Doing so for a 7th pick it's even worse. I was a bit of GS fan, dating from Mullin days, and more recently, for Nellie's game, but keeping a loose mentality with an already young and promising core that you have for a pick (7th, and you still loose it the next year), it's insane. You need a new winning mentality, not one more average young player that arguably won't change bad habs. But if you're comfortable with mediocrity.... you'll have no problems with 7 more years of lottery.

Utah won 26 games to tank for Deron Williams. In 1983 and 1984 they lucked out and drafted Karl Malone and Stockton at 13 and 16 respectively. Your team was lucky enough to get 2 hall of fame players with late lotto picks in subsequent years. Last year you got lucky with NJN gifting you a ridiculous amount of assets for bald penis.

You and the rest of the Jazz fans need to stop deluding yourself into thinking you have a "winning culture". You've lucked out time after time again and you've been blessed with having a halfway competent front office. The one year when the luck of the draw didn't work, you tanked to get D-Will. Meanwhile, when our new FO decides to do everything in its power to step out of mediocrity (where we have been the last 20 years), by tanking and making high risk trades, you and the rest of your lot have the nerve to come over here and say we're perpetuating mediocrity? I'm sorry that for the first time in Jazz history you didn't luck out again by getting a 7th pick for absolutely nothing, but maybe your spoiled little asses can do with a little humility.

GTFO hypocrite. Winning culture my ass. Pathetic fanbase.

one or two sub-par years in 25 years ain't so bad... as for the D-Will pick, we had to trade three picks to move up in the draft; call it luck, call it pathetic, call it hypocrite...

avoid a looooooosing mentality, i call it a good job.

[Jefff]

My thoughts exactly, these guys did the exact same thing to get Deron Williams... and now their crying that the Warriors did it to get into the lottery and secure their pick?

I thought they already have a good young core, and some of them have said that it's better than ours (Curry/Klay/Lee/Bogut). They can wait till next year to get our pick..

yup, if we're as bad as they say, and encouraging "a losing culture" they should be happy, as next years pick, will be even better for them!

Won't it?

won't it, still top 7 protected.

[TaylorMonkey]

Just to be more clear: not just GS sucks for tanking, all teams that do so, they suck. I wrote here cuz the jazz were directly concerned, but IMHO losing on purpose it's a shame. Doing so for a 7th pick it's even worse. I was a bit of GS fan, dating from Mullin days, and more recently, for Nellie's game, but keeping a loose mentality with an already young and promising core that you have for a pick (7th, and you still loose it the next year), it's insane. You need a new winning mentality, not one more average young player that arguably won't change bad habs. But if you're comfortable with mediocrity.... you'll have no problems with 7 more years of lottery.

Utah won 26 games to tank for Deron Williams. In 1983 and 1984 they lucked out and drafted Karl Malone and Stockton at 13 and 16 respectively. Your team was lucky enough to get 2 hall of fame players with late lotto picks in subsequent years. Last year you got lucky with NJN gifting you a ridiculous amount of assets for bald penis.

You and the rest of the Jazz fans need to stop deluding yourself into thinking you have a "winning culture". You've lucked out time after time again and you've been blessed with having a halfway competent front office. The one year when the luck of the draw didn't work, you tanked to get D-Will. Meanwhile, when our new FO decides to do everything in its power to step out of mediocrity (where we have been the last 20 years), by tanking and making high risk trades, you and the rest of your lot have the nerve to come over here and say we're perpetuating mediocrity? I'm sorry that for the first time in Jazz history you didn't luck out again by getting a 7th pick for absolutely nothing, but maybe your spoiled little asses can do with a little humility.

GTFO hypocrite. Winning culture my ass. Pathetic fanbase.

one or two sub-par years in 25 years ain't so bad... as for the D-Will pick, we had to trade three picks to move up in the draft; call it luck, call it pathetic, call it hypocrite...

avoid a looooooosing mentality, i call it a good job.

You had to "trade up" only because tanking and ending up at 4th worst wasn't good enough. Of course it's only a good job when the Jazz do it and it happens to work and a crime when other teams do. So profitting from tanking is okay only when a team has a good history and not when they're legitimately bad and keep ending above 4th because they've actually been trying for the last 20 years? And a team has a losing culture the one year they actually follow your precident and *don't* just do what they've been doing to lose and gift you with a pick? Nice double standard.

We couldn't even hope for 4th in a shortened season this year because we spent too much time actually trying to win games. Maybe we just don't have as much of a "winning culture" as the Jazz did.

[Jefff]

are you really comparing the last 25 years Jazz-Warriors? Do i have to write the records?

When you write "we spent too much time actually trying to win games" you're saying that losing mentality is in you.

You NEVER spend too much time trying to win.


But if you're ok with that, i'll not disturb anymore. Enjoy.

[Jester_]

are you really comparing the last 25 years Jazz-Warriors? Do i have to write the records?

When you write "we spent too much time actually trying to win games" you're saying that losing mentality is in you.

You NEVER spend too much time trying to win.


But if you're ok with that, i'll not disturb anymore. Enjoy.

It's usually not a good idea to talk about things you don't know anything about. Just advice for the future.

[EvanZ]

are you really comparing the last 25 years Jazz-Warriors? Do i have to write the records?

When you write "we spent too much time actually trying to win games" you're saying that losing mentality is in you.

You NEVER spend too much time trying to win.


But if you're ok with that, i'll not disturb anymore. Enjoy.

First of all, it's not US. WE don't own the Warriors. Chris Cohan owned them for a long time, and screwed the franchise over good. You might have heard we got a new owner a couple years ago. So to compare this ownership to the old one is just plain old stupid.

Not that I would expect more from Jefff with 3 "F's". In America, one F is bad enough. But 3 of them? That's awffful. Have fun getting swept by San Antonio.

[floppymoose]

I don't get what the Warriors record over the years, and the Jazz record over the years, has to do with anything. If comparing the two teams is somehow needed to argue that the Ws did something unsportsmanlike this season, then it seems the argument is already on a poor footing.

[TaylorMonkey]

are you really comparing the last 25 years Jazz-Warriors? Do i have to write the records?

When you write "we spent too much time actually trying to win games" you're saying that losing mentality is in you.

You NEVER spend too much time trying to win.

But if you're ok with that, i'll not disturb anymore. Enjoy.

You still didn't respond to the fact that your claim that we tanked the whole season was wrong, and our season doesn't compare to your pre-Deron season. 25 year records have nothing to do with it, unless you believe the rules change for lucky/winning franchises, or you believe poor teams are obligated to sabotague themselves just to entitle you to picks.

I'm not okay with tanking whole seasons. I didn't want us to tank for most of the year, and I think tanking is ridiculous but unavoidable because of how the rules work.

I *am* okay with "tanking" late season/developing young talent once it's a foregone conclusion that you can't make playoffs, you're severely undermanned, and you have something to gain from it. All of these were true for us. Playing your youngs and pressing them to be competitive instead of trying to win meaningless games with hurt players is part of building a winning culture. They now know they can hang with other teams in the league without their core.

When it comes down to winning one or two meaningless games just to hand the Jazz a pick, or just scouting/playing your unknowns at the end of the bench-- we had two second rounders I wanted us to play all year-- I'm all for the latter. We don't owe you any favors, and the more ire we draw from Jazz fans, the more convinced I am we made the right decision. Winning two extra games isn't going to help us "build a winning culture", no matter what one irate Jazz fan says.

But seriously, what would you have us do that makes basketball sense to improve our record with what we have? And don't say play Lee or Curry. Play Nate more (who's also injured)? I'd rather we ran Jenkins since he's more of what we need fundamentally and will likely be with the team longer. Play Dorell (who's again injured)? He's not much of a difference maker. Except for a few games, we fielded the best of what we had, and you don't have a problem with tanking a couple games.

In the end, Jazz tanked (intentionally or not) more successfully and consistently for big gains one season-- which is one more season than I know we've ever intentionally tanked. Intentional or not, our results don't even begin to compare.

So again, it's okay for your franchise because you're good and it worked, but not for ours, because we're terrible and never really tried up to now. Got it.

[510TWSS]

are you really comparing the last 25 years Jazz-Warriors? Do i have to write the records?

When you write "we spent too much time actually trying to win games" you're saying that losing mentality is in you.

You NEVER spend too much time trying to win.


But if you're ok with that, i'll not disturb anymore. Enjoy.

I'm sorry but you're just a joke right now. You've clearly selectively ignored the facts and you're arguing a contrarian take to a bunch of people who watched every single Warriors game. Warriors did the same thing the Jazz did in 04' and the same thing countless other franchises have done. Don't know why there's a big stink about the Warriors, who haven't tanked in our lifetime. First time the FO actually starts playing the game of lottery seeding the right way, they get a whole mob ready to tar and feather. I guess no one wants to see the Warriors actually become a decent franchise. Ha.

COME ON, MAN! Get your facts straight before you come all crazy like.