Draymond Green discussion...and "californiadude" blackmail.

UnderratedAF · Post #241 » by **UnderratedAF** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:04 pm

I see the Spurs going hard after Draymond or Jimmy Butler if some team offers Kawhi the max, but I guess they'll match anyway.

2015 NBA free agents

Lebron James(player option)
Marc Gasol
LaMarcus Aldridge
Kevin Love(player option)
Kawhi Leonard (restricted)
Tim Duncan
Goran Dragic
Rajon Rondo
DeAndre Jordan
Greg Monroe
Jimmy Butler (restricted)
Reggie Jackson (restricted)
Big Al (player option)
Paul Millsap
Wes Matthews
Draymond Green (restricted)
Tobias Harris (restricted)
Tyson Chandler

Holy sh*t

whocurrz · Post #242 » by **whocurrz** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:05 pm

old rem wrote:
whocurrz wrote:
Onus wrote:
I would contend that Drummond + Jeffrey Taylor/Jae Crowder is better than Barnes + Ezeli 24/7/365

We'd be getting Draymond in the 2nd regardless

Don't know if that's necessarily true. If Crowder was off the board it's possible the Mavs would have picked Draymond as Crowder's strengths were also his defense. Crowder was a much better shooter so maybe Nelson and RC don't value Draymond as much but it's very possible they pick Draymond before the pick we got him at. Still getting Drummond, Draymond and whoever would have been probably the best draft that year (NO got Davis but that was a no brainer and then they picked Austin Rivers )

I LIKED Crowder a lot. I'd seen less of Dray and yet thought Dray goes late #1..Crowder is in our slot. Dray got opportunity..THRIVED....but in the draft they were similar. Crowder had been a tough guy, good D, a chemistry guy. It worked out for us. Switch Crowder and Green.. and maybe Crowder is ahead now?

Whatever......Dray has been our secret weapon in this remarkable season.

Crowder was one of my favorite guys in the draft. The advanced stats that projected Davis as far and away te best player in the country had crowder as #2 and I saw him as a guy who could guard the 2, 3 and possibly some 4s with nice range, rebounding and a tough attitude. I remember wanting Drummond and Crowder with our two 1st rounders. When we drafted Barnes I thought Ezeli was the right pick and was thrilled when it looked like we might get Crowder with the 2nd rounder until the Mavs swooped right before. However when we drafted Dray I knew we were getting a similar player (as he had nice accolades that year and made headlines with his triple doubles and a playmaking SF was a major need) but didn't know if he had as high a ceiling.

Twinkie defense · Post #243 » by **Twinkie defense** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:39 pm

Onus wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:But we drafted Barnes instead of Drummond, not Ezeli instead of Drummond, so you are sorta making an apples to oranges comparison, don't you think?

If you want to compare Ezeli, compare him to someone drafted late in the first round or later.

And BTW do you think Drummond is more valuable to the team than Barnes + Ezeli?

Drummond is a nice asset, decent player. Center height is always at a premium. I just never understood how the Warriors made some fundamental error in not drafting him? We aren't talking about Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry here.

Plus that was an excellent draft by the Warriors, just don't undertand what there is to quible about.

I would contend that Drummond + Jeffrey Taylor/Jae Crowder is better than Barnes + Ezeli 24/7/365

We'd be getting Draymond in the 2nd regardless

I don't know where I'd come down on that alternative, but that is a reasonable proposal - much better than arguing for Drummond over Ezeli, which is beside the point.

Twinkie defense · Post #244 » by **Twinkie defense** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:42 pm

Too many teams are lining up for Marc Gasol but Spurs are one of them - they expect Duncan to retire before long, Gasol would be his replacement, and the San Antonio machine keeps on humming.

No matter what I don't see them letting Kawhi go, they are a little thin on young talent already. Losing Kawhi would be the death knell - it would even make it harder for them to add someone like Gasol.

turk3d · Post #245 » by **turk3d** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:49 pm

turk3d wrote:I think your strawman argument is even weaker and I love how you speak for the rest of the board (same way you try and claim the meaning of what I've said). Of course, you can thini that MJ would play a raw 19 year old rookie who couldn't shoot free throws all you want. Even if you interpreted what I said to mean something different from what I actually meant, I explained it to you enough times. But go on spew nonsense all you want and if you think that everyone agrees with you around here, you're pretty delusional. Just look at the games that Bogut DID play and see who he was utilized by MJ.

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:"Festus was better suited for that role when Bogut went down"
"He would have taken longer to deveop while we were looking to be making a strong playoff run."
"I just don't think he would have helped us that much"
"I still maintain that Ezeli was at least as effective (if not more so) than Drummond would have been"

I said all the above and still believe it to be true. We don't know for sure either way because it didn't happen.

Please, for the love of god, look up the definition of a straw man argument before you use that term again.

oaktownwarriors87 wrote:I also love that you are saying he wouldn't have gotten playing time because of his FT shooting, yet last time you had this discussion with Onus you said Andris Biedrins would have played over Drummond because he's more experienced.

Yes, he would have played and experienced Biedrins over a 19 year old Rookie who only played one year in college. And yes, his bad ft shooting wouldn't have helped his cause. And Bogut did start the season before getting hurt you know? But keep speaking for everyone else, that's one thing you're good at. lol

oaktownwarriors87 · Post #246 » by **oaktownwarriors87** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:12 pm

turk3d wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:I also love that you are saying he wouldn't have gotten playing time because of his FT shooting, yet last time you had this discussion with Onus you said Andris Biedrins would have played over Drummond because he's more experienced.

Yes, he would have played and experienced Biedrins over a 19 year old Rookie who only played one year in college. And yes, his bad ft shooting wouldn't have helped his cause.

I'm glad you can admit that you think he would have played Andris Biedrins over Andre Drummond. That brings a smile to my face.

Mark Jackson started rookie Festus Ezeli. He started rookie Harrison Barnes. He started rookie Klay Thompson. He started rookie Jeremy Tyler.

But rookie Andre Drummond? No, we need the experience of Andris Biedrins on the floor.

Mylie10 · Post #247 » by **Mylie10** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:43 pm

turk3d wrote:
oaktownwarriors87 wrote:
turk3d wrote:Putting aside all your BS for the moment, what makes you think that if we had drafted Drummond that Jackson would have played him even as much as he played in Detroit considering he shot just 37% fts his first year? Do you realize that Bogut's first year with us (same as when Drummond got drafted) Jackson only played him an average of 24.6 mpg and yet Bogut averaged 50% on his fts, significantly better than what Drummond did for Detroit?

And you do remember how Jackson much of the time didn't want to play Bogut during the 4th qtr and during crunch time towards the end of the game. I guess you forgot how much so many posters were complaining about that and how one of the biggest differences that Kerr has made which has contributed greatly to Bogut's great start this season.

I've never said (or meant) that Drummond isn't a greater talent than Ezeli, what I have said and been saying (for the umpteeth time) that I don't believe that Drummond would have gotten much playing time under Jackson. This is the last time I respond to this. From now on you can argue with yourself about it if you want. I gave you my opinion, and I gave you my reasons for it. You may not like it, don't want to agree with it, don't know what else you want.

Andrew Bogut missed 50 games that season and Biedrins/Tyler/Ezeli played a combined 26.9 MPG.

Your argument is weak and I don't think anyone agrees with you. I always quoted you directly and I never misrepresented your opinion (actually, you misquoted yourself to support your own argument), so you can stop playing that card.

I think your strawman argument is even weaker and I love how you speak for the rest of the board (same way you try and claim the meaning of what I've said). Of course, you can thini that MJ would play a raw 19 year old rookie who couldn't shoot free throws all you want. Even if you interpreted what I said to mean something different from what I actually meant, I explained it to you enough times. But go on spew nonsense all you want and if you think that everyone agrees with you around here, you're pretty delusional. Just look at the games that Bogut DID play and see who he was utilized by MJ.

Jackson played all the young rookies and Barnes is younger than Drummond....so yes Jackson would have played him because he mirrored the type of athletic defender that would work with a bunch of shooters.

He's not spewing nonsense and he quoted you directly.

Mylie10 · Post #248 » by **Mylie10** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:48 pm

floppymoose wrote:I love that we took Udoh over Monroe. I'm not sure we ever trade for Bogut if we had taken Monroe, and that means no playoff series victory.

You're probably right....but if you go bpa and take Monroe, then you still go after Bogut using Monroe and Monta. At least a smart basketball person would. Udoh was a bad pick even though he had some defensive skills. Not worthy of that high a selection.

As much as many might not care for Monroe...he is an excellent passer and has been averaging over ten boards a game and around 15 points. I'd take that. I wouldn't pay him the max, but that's a different story.

When Monroe ends up on the Spurs people will change their minds on him.....much like what happened with Boris Diaw.

Twinkie defense · Post #249 » by **Twinkie defense** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:19 pm

Eh, I always liked Boris Diaw.

And no way the Spurs are going to sign him - it will probably be some lottery team that needs to make a free agent splash - "we got a 15 and 10 guy!"

Just curious though, why do you think Stan Van Gundy doesn't see him as part of a rebuild? They're pretty lacking in talent. Is it just that they have to choose between Drummond and Monroe? He wants too much money to come off the bench? Not that long ago people were talking about Monroe being a core piece, a potential All Star - they were even complaining that the Warriors were getting beat out in their rebuild by Detroit. And now the Pistons haven't even been able to trade the guy - maybe Udoh would even be a better asset for them to have now?

Mylie10 · Post #250 » by **Mylie10** » Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:26 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:Eh, I always liked Boris Diaw.

And no way the Spurs are going to sign him - it will probably be some lottery team that needs to make a free agent splash - "we got a 15 and 10 guy!"

Just curious though, why do you think Stan Van Gundy doesn't see him as part of a rebuild? They're pretty lacking in talent. Is it just that they have to choose between Drummond and Monroe? He wants too much money to come off the bench? Not that long ago people were talking about Monroe being a core piece, a potential All Star - they were even complaining that the Warriors were getting beat out in their rebuild by Detroit. And now the Pistons haven't even been able to trade the guy - maybe Udoh would even be a better asset for them to have now?

Detroit's biggest problem is guard play and everything other than Monroe and Drummond. But I personally see Monroe as a center...I don't see him as a power forward like others do....so you're right..they need to make a choice and Drummond is vastly superior on defense....He's a lot younger...and still scores without having to run any plays for him.

If Stan puts together a team like he had in Orlando, then you will see that team transform with Drummond as the Dwight...and then four shooters around him. Right now they don't have that personnel....so Monroe goes.

You might also be right that Monroe goes to a crap team trying to sign something....anything....but if he goes to a team that values skilled players he will change people's minds for the better.

You and me liked Diaw, but he was overweight and not thought that highly of when the Spurs got him...another skilled player.

Twinkie defense · Post #251 » by **Twinkie defense** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:22 am

I liked Stan's Dwight and four perimeter players approach, but I thought that was driven by personnel rather than by philosophy. If he is trying to reinvent that, without Dwight, god help him. He might be better served to look at how Memphis is utilizing their big men and make Josh Smith the odd man out. But apparently he can't make that frontcourt work - I have to think part of it is how he views Monroe as an asset.

turk3d · Post #252 » by **turk3d** » Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:31 am

Twinkie defense wrote:Eh, I always liked Boris Diaw.

And no way the Spurs are going to sign him - it will probably be some lottery team that needs to make a free agent splash - "we got a 15 and 10 guy!"

Just curious though, why do you think Stan Van Gundy doesn't see him as part of a rebuild? They're pretty lacking in talent. Is it just that they have to choose between Drummond and Monroe? He wants too much money to come off the bench? Not that long ago people were talking about Monroe being a core piece, a potential All Star - they were even complaining that the Warriors were getting beat out in their rebuild by Detroit. And now the Pistons haven't even been able to trade the guy - maybe Udoh would even be a better asset for them to have now?

I think one of the big problems is Smith's trade va;ie which is at an all time low with his toxic contract (maybe today's David Lee contract wise). No one will take him off their hands. They took a risk when they got him thinking he could co-exist with Drummond and Monroe.

He makes too much to come off the bench and he's been a failure @ the SF position (where they moved him) because of his horrible outside shooting. When it appeared that Monroe was going to try and rape them with his new contract, they apparently decided he wasn't worth it considering they were already stuck with Smith's deal and he's practically untradeable at this point.

Post #253 » by **floppymoose** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:38 am

I wouldn't mind a Chandler/Bogut center
tandem. Not sure if Chandler would sign on as a backup but I see them both playing the same minutes regardless of who starts.

The-Power · Post #254 » by **The-Power** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:55 pm

floppymoose wrote:I wouldn't mind a Chandler/Bogut center
tandem. Not sure if Chandler would sign on as a backup but I see them both playing the same minutes regardless of who starts.

Due to injuries? Because I'd prefer some small-ball and not 48 minutes of Bogut and Chandler each game, however good they are.

Post #255 » by **floppymoose** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:10 pm

There would be plenty of small ball against a lot of teams. The point is having a better chance of having a rim protector when we need one.

The-Power · Post #256 » by **The-Power** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:21 pm

floppymoose wrote:[...] The point is having a better chance of having a rim protector when we need one.

Sure, no denial for my part. But you can't allure Chandler with enough minutes if you want to play small for extended periods unless you factor in injuries in advance.

Post #257 » by **floppymoose** » Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:50 pm

It's a pipe dream on my part anyway. I think Mavs have Bird rights and I bet Cuban will spend what it takes to keep him if he is healthy.

Twinkie defense · Post #258 » by **Twinkie defense** » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:52 pm

Yeah Warriors tried to get Chandler once, now that ship has sailed.

californiadude · Post #259 » by **californiadude** » Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:41 pm

Great article on Draymond over at Grantland....

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/spart ... g-started/

GoldenState- · Post #260 » by **GoldenState-** » Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:23 am

TNT just mentioned Green will be a un restricted free agent at the end of the season how the hell is that possible again? Wasn't there a rule created that protects teams from good 2nd rounders leaving after Arenas left us as an unrestricted free agent? We might need to pay Draymond $14+million /yr now.