Moderators: Chris Porter's Hair, floppymoose, Sleepy51
wco81 wrote:If they win clutch games against the top 10-12 teams in each conference, that's fine. But if they're eking out close wins vs. teams out of the playoffs or play-in or teams clearly tanking like the Nets, that's not a good sign.
floppymoose wrote:Twinkie defense wrote:Jimmy Butler doesn't make 60 million dollars a year.
It's pretty close. (What's a few million between friends?)
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/player/_/id/8081/jimmy-butler
49m
54m
57m
Those are the contract numbers I see online.
AirP. wrote:Onus wrote:wco81 wrote:
And he's not even looking to shoot unless it's a layup or end of clock situation.
Teams are going to test how much he looks to score by trapping Curry more and more.
I get why his scoring goes up in the playoffs. It's because teams scheme for him to score rather than him passing which is what he does all regular season. So in the playoffs team take away the pass and force him to shoot and then he explodes in scoring. So will have to hope he still has it.
You'd have to be a really stupid team (especially in the playoffs) to think the best way to slow down Miami is to allow Butler to score when the rest of the starters were... Bam, G.Vincent, Strus and recently cut K.Love without Herro who broke his hand game 1 of the playoffs. I don't think people quite understand how little of talent Miami had, their best team around Butler was the roster in 19-20.
Butler plays as a facilitator mostly until his back is up against the wall or he has something to prove, then he goes into scoring mode which the closest he's done that in Golden State was the pull up jump on T.Harris since he has a grudge against him.
We're not even 24 months removed from dropping 98 points in back to back games to close out the #1 seed in the playoffs. Then he was slowed up when Josh Hart injured him in game 1 of the 2nd round, he missed the 2nd game of the series which is why he's not been at that level in the playoffs since (he was injured in the play in game by K.Oubre Jr and he stayed in the rest of the game). Butler's #1 objective is to be healthy for the playoffs because he wants to win a championship.Spoiler:
Onus wrote:Dude look at his points and assists in those games. It’s all points with little assists. Look at his highlights it’s almost all single coverage and him walking into mid range jump shots. If a team wants to get the ball out of his hands they would be sending double teams and forcing someone else to shoot the ball. But the game plan was obviously to force him to shoot the ball and he made shots over single coverage. Which is great because he’s going to get a lot of that. Teams beat the warriors by forcing anyone else to beat them other then curry and hopefully butler is going to be that guy like he was in the eastern conference.
AirP. wrote:Onus wrote:Dude look at his points and assists in those games. It’s all points with little assists. Look at his highlights it’s almost all single coverage and him walking into mid range jump shots. If a team wants to get the ball out of his hands they would be sending double teams and forcing someone else to shoot the ball. But the game plan was obviously to force him to shoot the ball and he made shots over single coverage. Which is great because he’s going to get a lot of that. Teams beat the warriors by forcing anyone else to beat them other then curry and hopefully butler is going to be that guy like he was in the eastern conference.
Curry is the greatest shooter of all time, of course you have to double him. Butler doesn't have a special offensive ability, he scores off of bbiq, toughness, some good footwork and a lot of effort. Playing that type of game will get you hurt and he's been hurt many times in the playoffs and also once in the regular season with Minnesota that cost him 6 weeks, which is why he doesn't go into scoring mode very often in the regular season.
Milwaukee didn't double team Butler because that wasn't their defense, they'd use drop coverage with Brooks and use Giannis as a roamer and had Jrue Holdiay and Giannis covering him most of the time. In the 14 playoff games Butler in Miami had against the Bucks since 2020, he's had games of 6 games of 30+ points, 3 of those being 40+ and one of those being 56, I think they knew he could beat them with his scoring.
The 2022 Warriors beat the Celtics that Miami lost in the ECF in 7 game because Butler got hurt early in the series, wonder if you can tell what games he was hurt his scoring numbers in order... 41, 29, 8, 6, 13. 47 and 35. Butler was also hurt in the 2nd round by Josh Hart to the point he missed the game after being hurt but Butler did put up 2 40+ point games the first 2 rounds and an additional 3 30+ point games.
What's interesting to me is that Butler never had a really good roster in Miami, his top teammate was Bam who is basically a defensive specialist, the only other really good players were Dragic and past his prime K.Lowry, nearly every year they were expected to get bounced in the first round which only happened once in 2021 (the year after the short offseason after the finals run in the bubble). This current Warriors roster is the 2nd best roster Butler's been on, I consider that 2019 76ers roster to be the best roster Butler's been on with Embiid, Redick, Simmons and T.Harris, where they got beat by Kawhi's Raptors on that crazy bouncing on the rim last shot.
The only time I think I've seen Butler go into scorer mode in Golden State was one play against T.Harris, he even pointed and talked **** to him after making the shot. Outside of that he's not really have went into scorer mode.Spoiler:
Onus wrote:Yes butler increases his scoring in the playoffs. Like you said against the bucks they played drop coverage and didn’t send any doubles. They stayed home on shooters which means they wanted butler to score and he exploded his scoring. It’s ok that the bucks schemed him to score. He was able to increase his scoring output unlike cp3. This is exactly the same thing teams do to cp3 and yet cp3 was never able to increase his scoring like butler did. Cp3 numbers go up in the playoffs as well and it’s because teams scheme to make him a scorer and take away his passing. And all the analytical people like to claim cp3 raises his game in the playoffs and his teammates fail him and don’t realize teams scheme him to score and take away his passing.
AirP. wrote:Onus wrote:Yes butler increases his scoring in the playoffs. Like you said against the bucks they played drop coverage and didn’t send any doubles. They stayed home on shooters which means they wanted butler to score and he exploded his scoring. It’s ok that the bucks schemed him to score. He was able to increase his scoring output unlike cp3. This is exactly the same thing teams do to cp3 and yet cp3 was never able to increase his scoring like butler did. Cp3 numbers go up in the playoffs as well and it’s because teams scheme to make him a scorer and take away his passing. And all the analytical people like to claim cp3 raises his game in the playoffs and his teammates fail him and don’t realize teams scheme him to score and take away his passing.
Here, Draymond Green had Jeff Teague on his podcast and Teague mentions how Butler changed how he played early in the season, he was going to lay back do the little things, average ~18 points (basically what he's doing now in Golden State) and be a top 5 team in the West but after a few games he went to Teague and said no, they don't have it, I'm taking over and Butler carried the team that to being 3rd in the West a little bit before he was injured and out 6 weeks which they fell like a rock in the standings and had to play for the 8th spot on the last game in the year vs Denver/Jokic who were also fighting for that same 8th spot, Denver lost, got in the lottery and they picked up M.Porter Jr because of it.
Here's Butler's scoring per month that season, he tore his meniscus in Feb and was out 6 weeks. You can kinda see he decided to be a scorer 2 months in on a regular basis.
I'm telling you, much like I told the Miami fans 6 years ago, he has 2 very distinct modes a laid-back do everything player and a being a scorer 1st mode.
Onus wrote:AirP. wrote:Onus wrote:Spoiler:Spoiler:
I'm telling you, much like I told the Miami fans 6 years ago, he has 2 very distinct modes a laid-back do everything player and a being a scorer 1st mode.
This has nothing to do with what I'm discussing.
Sandy333 wrote:A word of caution for people going overboard on Jimmy hype, Pods and moody have upgraded thier game since the injury. Also Post is a big upgrade is whatever we had earlier.
Unless Jimmy is doing the coaching ( seen couple of clips of Jimmy drawing the play though ) it is not all down to Jimmy.
Unless Jimmy gets his scoring back , warriors will only flatter to decieve in the playoffs
HiRez wrote:Sandy333 wrote:A word of caution for people going overboard on Jimmy hype, Pods and moody have upgraded thier game since the injury. Also Post is a big upgrade is whatever we had earlier.
Unless Jimmy is doing the coaching ( seen couple of clips of Jimmy drawing the play though ) it is not all down to Jimmy.
Unless Jimmy gets his scoring back , warriors will only flatter to decieve in the playoffs
It's not all due to him, but I think he has a lot to do with it. Just look at the Philly game when Jimmy sat (yes, I know, very small sample).
Moody: 38m, 10 pts on 3-8, 2 reb, 0 ast.
Podz: 25m, 5 pts on 2-8, 6 reb, 2 ast.
He has definitely helped make their job easier and get better shots.
The formula for calculating Offensive Rating is: (Points Scored / Possessions) * 100. This formula provides the number of points a team would score per 100 possessions.
Code: Select all
+------------------+-----+----+----+----+----+---------+
|Player |Games|Team|USG%|ORTG|DRTG|NetRating|
+------------------+-----+----+----+----+----+---------+
|Jimmy Butler |14 |GSW |20.8|132 |114 |18 |
|Stephen Curry |57 |GSW |29.4|119 |114 |5 |
|Moses Moody |58 |GSW |17.7|119 |115 |4 |
|Andrew Wiggins |43 |GSW |23.4|116 |114 |2 |
|Brandin Podziemski|50 |GSW |17.6|114 |112 |2 |
|Draymond Green |52 |GSW |15.8|109 |109 |0 |
|Jonathan Kuminga |33 |GSW |27.6|109 |112 |-3 |
|DeAnthony Melton |6 |GSW |23.4|106 |111 |-5 |
|Buddy Hield |66 |GSW |20.9|107 |113 |-6 |
|Dennis Schröder |24 |GSW |21.1|99 |115 |-16 |
+------------------+-----+----+----+----+----+---------+
Sandy333 wrote:It was heartening to see the resilience from the today when kings made the runs
Sandy333 wrote:Iam worried about lack of scoring from Jimmy. He acknowledged he was out of shape at trade. If he is atleast 80% of playoff Jimmy, we will do well. If teams figure out and start the Looney treatment, we will be in trouble shortly.
Apart from the stats, It was heartening to see the resilience from the today when kings made the runs with the ref also also trying to even up the fouls for the kings.
Team from earlier would have collapsed.
HiRez wrote:Sandy333 wrote:A word of caution for people going overboard on Jimmy hype, Pods and moody have upgraded thier game since the injury. Also Post is a big upgrade is whatever we had earlier.
Unless Jimmy is doing the coaching ( seen couple of clips of Jimmy drawing the play though ) it is not all down to Jimmy.
Unless Jimmy gets his scoring back , warriors will only flatter to decieve in the playoffs
It's not all due to him, but I think he has a lot to do with it. Just look at the Philly game when Jimmy sat (yes, I know, very small sample).
Moody: 38m, 10 pts on 3-8, 2 reb, 0 ast.
Podz: 25m, 5 pts on 2-8, 6 reb, 2 ast.
He has definitely helped make their job easier and get better shots.
DaHef wrote:HiRez wrote:Sandy333 wrote:A word of caution for people going overboard on Jimmy hype, Pods and moody have upgraded thier game since the injury. Also Post is a big upgrade is whatever we had earlier.
Unless Jimmy is doing the coaching ( seen couple of clips of Jimmy drawing the play though ) it is not all down to Jimmy.
Unless Jimmy gets his scoring back , warriors will only flatter to decieve in the playoffs
It's not all due to him, but I think he has a lot to do with it. Just look at the Philly game when Jimmy sat (yes, I know, very small sample).
Moody: 38m, 10 pts on 3-8, 2 reb, 0 ast.
Podz: 25m, 5 pts on 2-8, 6 reb, 2 ast.
He has definitely helped make their job easier and get better shots.
When you think about all the players and draft choices GS offered up for what turned out to be :
A Gimpy Paul George
An Under performing Lauri Markkanen
A Pissed off Kevin Durant (he's valuable but at what price?)
And then compare that to trading for an All Star level team oriented unselfish player like Jimmy B. for only a mid to late first rounder, Wiggins, and filler. (getting out of the KA contract was a plus) and keeping all those other assets including 2 of the expiring contracts.
You would have to think the Dubs and MDJ are living a little bit blessed to have dodged those bullets.
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