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whatisacenter · Post #361 » by **whatisacenter** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:55 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
Old_Blue wrote:What a polite way of saying Wiseman's defense is horrible.

Defense is horrible, and his offense is a mismatch for what the Warriors do.

the team's defense has been sooo much better without him this season, huh?

Twinkie defense · Post #362 » by **Twinkie defense** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 10:58 pm

WarriorGM wrote:If this is true then I'm disappointed in the whole organization. Wiseman was clearly not ready early on but to give up on him completely when he actually got some reps? My opinion on Wiseman has always been that if he ever became good enough to be able to stay on the floor he'd become a factor. The entire approach of the team when it has come to rookies has been weird.

Well he's not a rookie! But I think it has less to do with what the team does with young players and more with whether those young players can play or not - look at Kuminga, who is even younger than Wiseman, and who has established himself as a regular part of the rotation, even in important moments.

Definitely young players are lacking the years of development in the college game they used to get, which makes them more of a crapshoot.

Personally I look at every seven-footer as a big red flag in the draft. They are so bust- and injury-prone. I got tantalized by some early glimpses of Wiseman despite not wanting the Warriors to draft him. Should have gone with my first instinct!

WarriorGM · Post #363 » by **WarriorGM** » Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:16 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:If this is true then I'm disappointed in the whole organization. Wiseman was clearly not ready early on but to give up on him completely when he actually got some reps? My opinion on Wiseman has always been that if he ever became good enough to be able to stay on the floor he'd become a factor. The entire approach of the team when it has come to rookies has been weird.

Well he's not a rookie! But I think it has less to do with what the team does with young players and more with whether those young players can play or not - look at Kuminga, who is even younger than Wiseman, and who has established himself as a regular part of the rotation, even in important moments.

Definitely young players are lacking the years of development in the college game they used to get, which makes them more of a crapshoot.

Personally I look at every seven-footer as a big red flag in the draft. They are so bust- and injury-prone. I got tantalized by some early glimpses of Wiseman despite not wanting the Warriors to draft him. Should have gone with my first instinct!

The thing with Wiseman is that it was pretty obvious what he lacked and it seems to me the indicated remedy was fairly straightforward: more reps in a tougher than high school environment. Despite being younger Kuminga for example already had a year of playing in the G-league under his belt before being drafted.

I'm probably being tantalized and misled as well but Wiseman was coming off of 4 out of 5 games with a positive plus-minus which is the most positive run he's had in that metric with the team and I was just starting to wonder if he was perhaps turning the corner.

Big J · Post #364 » by **Big J** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:07 am

WarriorGM wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:If this is true then I'm disappointed in the whole organization. Wiseman was clearly not ready early on but to give up on him completely when he actually got some reps? My opinion on Wiseman has always been that if he ever became good enough to be able to stay on the floor he'd become a factor. The entire approach of the team when it has come to rookies has been weird.

Well he's not a rookie! But I think it has less to do with what the team does with young players and more with whether those young players can play or not - look at Kuminga, who is even younger than Wiseman, and who has established himself as a regular part of the rotation, even in important moments.

Definitely young players are lacking the years of development in the college game they used to get, which makes them more of a crapshoot.

Personally I look at every seven-footer as a big red flag in the draft. They are so bust- and injury-prone. I got tantalized by some early glimpses of Wiseman despite not wanting the Warriors to draft him. Should have gone with my first instinct!

The thing with Wiseman is that it was pretty obvious what he lacked and it seems to me the indicated remedy was fairly straightforward: more reps in a tougher than high school environment. Despite being younger Kuminga for example already had a year of playing in the G-league under his belt before being drafted.

I'm probably being tantalized and misled as well but Wiseman was coming off of 4 out of 5 games with a positive plus-minus which is the most positive run he's had in that metric with the team and I was just starting to wonder if he was perhaps turning the corner.

I don't think so. He has bad natural instincts. He never would have been able to guard perimeter guys like Loon does, and that is more important for bigs than ever. He can be useful in spurts in certain situations though. I don't know why we didn't try playing zone more when he was in there.

michaelm · Post #365 » by **michaelm** » Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:34 am

Twinkie defense wrote:
michaelm wrote:Posting on the other thread I was going to suggest someone should ask you as you would be familiar with the use of the drug in a sporting context which you obviously are.

What you say was pretty much my less informed surmise, that they may have given the drug to him in an injectable form short term when he first returned. I presume the complications of the drug are worse in the more concentrated injectable form which is why it is only given for a few days.

As someone else, iirc Chris Porter's Hair, said it is irrelevant if he had the problem at GSW, and the same would apply to whether he was given Toradol at GSW, he wasn't traded to Portland, they signed him as a Free agent and may even have outbid GSW, so the onus was on them now they were trading him.

In case it got lost in the thread, GPII was taking Toradol ORALLY, which is probably where the agent's comments about injections come in - I think the original reporting mentioned injections specifically.

My girlfriend is a USF and UCSF-trained nurse and says they would use Toradol to treat chest pain (like when a patient is recovering from heart surgery). It works well, however she was concerned that GPII was getting it as it should only be used for short-term purposes and has some nasty side effects including potentially messing up your kidneys.

Sure, that is the issue, but this is not something concerning which there is full information as far as I am aware. It is an NSAID like ibuprofen, but from what I read quite powerful with use recommended for only a few days as you say, with the apparently untrue reports of administration by injection perhaps implying an even higher dose.

Giving him the drug for a few days to aid his return to playing wouldn't seem all that unreasonable to me. If he was on it for weeks and had an ongoing requirement for it to be able to play that would be a different matter, both from the point of view of requiring the drug to play and being on the drug for a prolonged period, but given there is no information as far as I know about the timescale over which the drug was administered or the dose, and there has already been misinformation as you also say, there should be no rush to judgement/conviction by the court of the internet imo.

whatisacenter · Post #366 » by **whatisacenter** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 3:59 pm

Hopefully he can return before the end of the regular season and get up to basketball speed.

Gary Payton II is set to increase his on-court workload and will be re-evaluated in 10 days, the Golden State Warriors announced on Monday.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270801/Gary-Payton-II-To-Be-Re-Evaluated-In-10-Days

parsnips33 · Post #367 » by **parsnips33** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 4:40 pm

whatisacenter wrote:Hopefully he can return before the end of the regular season and get up to basketball speed.

Gary Payton II is set to increase his on-court workload and will be re-evaluated in 10 days, the Golden State Warriors announced on Monday.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270801/Gary-Payton-II-To-Be-Re-Evaluated-In-10-Days

We play Philly March 24 to start a 4 game home stand. Would give him an 8 game ramp up to the playoffs

HiRez · Post #368 » by **HiRez** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 6:55 pm

parsnips33 wrote:
whatisacenter wrote:Hopefully he can return before the end of the regular season and get up to basketball speed.

Gary Payton II is set to increase his on-court workload and will be re-evaluated in 10 days, the Golden State Warriors announced on Monday.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270801/Gary-Payton-II-To-Be-Re-Evaluated-In-10-Days

We play Philly March 24 to start a 4 game home stand. Would give him an 8 game ramp up to the playoffs

Re-evaluated probably does not mean "will be ready to go by" though. It could be days or even weeks later, after the regular season is over. I'm cautiously optimistic that he's at least being evaluated, but as this appears to be a recurring, nagging injury there's a lot that can go wrong. Unfortunately the 5-game road trip they start tomorrow is where they really need GP2 to shore up their awful road defense and he won't play in any of those. Kuminga seems closer but he still hasn't played yet either.

parsnips33 · Post #369 » by **parsnips33** » Tue Mar 14, 2023 7:25 pm

HiRez wrote:
parsnips33 wrote:
whatisacenter wrote:Hopefully he can return before the end of the regular season and get up to basketball speed.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/270801/Gary-Payton-II-To-Be-Re-Evaluated-In-10-Days

We play Philly March 24 to start a 4 game home stand. Would give him an 8 game ramp up to the playoffs

Re-evaluated probably does not mean "will be ready to go by" though. It could be days or even weeks later, after the regular season is over. I'm cautiously optimistic that he's at least being evaluated, but as this appears to be a recurring, nagging injury there's a lot that can go wrong. Unfortunately the 5-game road trip they start tomorrow is where they really need GP2 to shore up their awful road defense and he won't play in any of those. Kuminga seems closer but he still hasn't played yet either.

Yeah far from guaranteed, but he has been making good progress. Even if it's just a few games ramp up into the playoffs that would be great

parsnips33 · Post #370 » by **parsnips33** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:24 pm

Woj saying he might be back for Sunday against Minnesota. It's starting to come together

Old_Blue · Post #371 » by **Old_Blue** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 8:55 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Woj saying he might be back for Sunday against Minnesota. It's starting to come together

Hopefully, he's 100%. The stories regarding the Toradol injections were troubling. Presuming he is at 100%, the team's defense will get a giant boost. One of my favorite Warriors ever.

KevinMcreynolds · Post #372 » by **KevinMcreynolds** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:39 pm

I’ll see your 3 guard lineup and raise it to 4

DonaldSanders · Post #373 » by **DonaldSanders** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 10:59 pm

Can't wait for all the trash takes on the GPII trade to get proven wrong. "Wow, our defense looks so much better when GPII is out there"

Get ready to enjoy the defender we've been missing! Back in his rightful jersey, hopefully a Warrior for life

Twinkie defense · Post #374 » by **Twinkie defense** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:04 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Woj saying he might be back for Sunday against Minnesota. It's starting to come together

Twinkie defense · Post #375 » by **Twinkie defense** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:06 pm

Channeling Bill Walton, GPII was rocking a Grateful Dead tie-dye shirt in Dallas :lol:

xdrta+ · Post #376 » by **xdrta+** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:25 pm

parsnips33 wrote:Woj saying he might be back for Sunday against Minnesota. It's starting to come together

Woj must be reading the Warriors Twitter:

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

whatisacenter · Post #377 » by **whatisacenter** » Thu Mar 23, 2023 11:31 pm

DonaldSanders wrote:Can't wait for all the [b]trash takes on the GPII trade to get proven wrong.[/b] "Wow, our defense looks so much better when GPII is out there"

Get ready to enjoy the defender we've been missing! Back in his rightful jersey, hopefully a Warrior for life

what trash takes?

DonaldSanders · Post #378 » by **DonaldSanders** » Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:09 am

whatisacenter wrote:
DonaldSanders wrote:Can't wait for all the [b]trash takes on the GPII trade to get proven wrong.[/b] "Wow, our defense looks so much better when GPII is out there"

Get ready to enjoy the defender we've been missing! Back in his rightful jersey, hopefully a Warrior for life

what trash takes?

The trash takes where Wiseman is considered more valuable to the Warriors than GPII. The same James Wiseman who is still bad on the Pistons and has one of the worst net ratings of any player to ever play with Curry, vs. GPII being one of the best net ratings to ever play with Curry. GPII is one of the most perfect players for our system, vs. Wiseman being a terrible fit. Hope the kid figures it out with the Pistons eventually, but it won't be this year or next.

I don't mean this to sound as personal as it might to the pro-Wiseman crowd. I just thought GPII is our guy and was disrespected a bit around here.

Get ready for lockdown defense!

KevinMcreynolds · Post #379 » by **KevinMcreynolds** » Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:15 am

I think everyone agrees he’s more valuable to the Warriors. I think the argument is more that we could have gotten more for Wiseman. We completely tanked his value by never playing him and then traded him for a role player who turned out to be damaged goods.

DonaldSanders · Post #380 » by **DonaldSanders** » Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:17 am

KevinMcreynolds wrote:I think everyone agrees he’s more valuable to the Warriors. I think the argument is more that we could have gotten more for Wiseman. We completely tanked his value by never playing him and then traded him for a role player who turned out to be damaged goods.

I don't disagree that overall we handled Wiseman's value poorly. I just felt Gary got dis-respected and his prior contributions downplayed.