Should the Warriors make a trade?

[SpreeS]

Bobby Marks said on the KOC podcast that Warriors might get 4 FRPs and 3 pick swaps plus matching salary from a team like Orlando, which is in dire need of shooting and spacing for Curry.

That might turbocharge the Warriors rebuild.

Because Warriors are unlikely to get the star like Giannis or Zion which might make them contenders.

But this would be more of a trade in the offseason.

They also talked about Dallas as a potential trade partner for Green, so that they could play small when they wanted.

We're talking about a potential 3 year rebuild vs a 10 year rebuild if this stupid FO can get off their ass and trade him

3 year rebuild? You expect these geniuses to be able to draft? The same front office that had 3 lottery picks and essentially drafted busts. Moody can barely crack the rotation on a 500 team. Jk is coming off the bench because he can’t out play a broken down Draymond or Wiggins. Wiseman is struggling to stay in the league.

Wagner or Sengun would look very different in same situations w/o development playing time or standing in corners and looking how veterans play right basketball style.

[Onus]

We're talking about a potential 3 year rebuild vs a 10 year rebuild if this stupid FO can get off their ass and trade him

3 year rebuild? You expect these geniuses to be able to draft? The same front office that had 3 lottery picks and essentially drafted busts. Moody can barely crack the rotation on a 500 team. Jk is coming off the bench because he can’t out play a broken down Draymond or Wiggins. Wiseman is struggling to stay in the league.

Wagner or Sengun would look very different in same situations w/o development playing time or standing in corners and looking how veterans play right basketball style.

Wagner and sengun actually know how to play basketball and weren’t raw as hell. They wouldn’t have been buried like Jk and moody. You notice how bp gets a ton of minutes compared to them?

[NW]

Bobby Marks said on the KOC podcast that Warriors might get 4 FRPs and 3 pick swaps plus matching salary from a team like Orlando, which is in dire need of shooting and spacing for Curry.

That might turbocharge the Warriors rebuild.

Because Warriors are unlikely to get the star like Giannis or Zion which might make them contenders.

But this would be more of a trade in the offseason.

They also talked about Dallas as a potential trade partner for Green, so that they could play small when they wanted.

Seriously if they’re unwilling to trade for Zion then they should trade everyone and start over. Pick a lane

That's what it comes down to, they seem paralyzed and unable to commit either way. Look at this Steve Kerr quote:

"What you're really trying to do is see if you can make some moves at the margins that can help your current team," Kerr told ESPN. "We are going to do everything we can to be as competitive as possible, to put the best team around Steph as possible without mortgaging the future, and that is the right decision."

To rephrase what he said in a different way, he's basically saying we're committed to neither excelling nor completely sucking, ensuring we have little chance of either being competitive as a playoff team, or have a high draft pick. Like OK, they're around .500 right now (of course that includes the 12-3 start, which feels like the distant past), it's not the worst, but by definition, the level of competition among playoff teams will be much higher than what they've faced in the regular season. So what are the chances they are > .500 in the playoffs? They aren't going to be facing the Wizards.

Worst case scenario is they wither away slowly, winning just enough games to avoid top 10 picks, but wait until the wheels fall off of Steph, or Steph gets fed up and asks out, when they will get less (or even nothing) in compensation. Right now I think Steph still nets you some juicy first round picks but that $60M+ salary is going to quickly become an untradable albatross if they wait much longer.

Shaky rephrase/translation imo. Pretty clear the plan is to make move around the margins that can be done without giving away key future assets (going after guys like Vuc, Nesmith etc.) for this big star Giannis pipedream (which I’m sure they’re hoping the Beal to Bucks in the Butler trade rumor implodes and pushes Giannis closer to asking out. So the GS offer for him can place 5th).

The goal is make the playoffs with a decent team team and hope Steph and co. Deliver once they get there. Key at this point is getting a team that can just get there.

If they do, great. If it ain’t looking good by deadline, they likely dump Loon or GP2 to get under the Lux tax and tank the rest of the way.

They go for big swings again next summer and, if they miss out again, that’s probably going to lead to a change in stance for Steph imo.

Either way, it’s 2-3 more years of Steph max and then all the tank squad folks will get all the sucking (pause) and drafting and pick hoarding that they can stand over the next decade+

[vvoland]

3 year rebuild? You expect these geniuses to be able to draft? The same front office that had 3 lottery picks and essentially drafted busts. Moody can barely crack the rotation on a 500 team. Jk is coming off the bench because he can’t out play a broken down Draymond or Wiggins. Wiseman is struggling to stay in the league.

Wagner or Sengun would look very different in same situations w/o development playing time or standing in corners and looking how veterans play right basketball style.

Wagner and sengun actually know how to play basketball and weren’t raw as hell. They wouldn’t have been buried like Jk and moody. You notice how bp gets a ton of minutes compared to them?

Wagner probably plays from day 1. Sengun, with his defensive issues, probably doesn't see much of the floor on this team and certainly not enough to develop like he has in Houston.

[Onus]

Wagner or Sengun would look very different in same situations w/o development playing time or standing in corners and looking how veterans play right basketball style.

Wagner and sengun actually know how to play basketball and weren’t raw as hell. They wouldn’t have been buried like Jk and moody. You notice how bp gets a ton of minutes compared to them?

Wagner probably plays from day 1. Sengun, with his defensive issues, probably doesn't see much of the floor on this team and certainly not enough to develop like he has in Houston.

We start TJD

[wco81]

Wagner or Sengun would look very different in same situations w/o development playing time or standing in corners and looking how veterans play right basketball style.

Wagner and sengun actually know how to play basketball and weren’t raw as hell. They wouldn’t have been buried like Jk and moody. You notice how bp gets a ton of minutes compared to them?

Wagner probably plays from day 1. Sengun, with his defensive issues, probably doesn't see much of the floor on this team and certainly not enough to develop like he has in Houston.

He might have gotten playing time with the Warriors but he certainly wouldn't get the usage and touches that he's gotten in Orlando.

Warriors still had aspirations and in 2022 they won the chip. How many minutes would he have gotten on that team?

Would they have given him the same number to shots?

In his rookie year, he played 31 minutes, took 12.3 FGA per game. Shot okay, 46.8/35.4/86.3.

Kuminga played 17 minutes in his rookie year, took 6.6 FGA per game. In the playoffs, he actually started 3 games that year but only averaged 8.6 MPG and took 3.8 FGA.

Orlando won 22 games in 2021-22 so there was no issue giving Wagner all those minutes and touches.

Warriors won 53 games and of course we know what happened in the playoffs.

Whose minutes would Wagner have taken from a championship team that year?

[Onus]

Wagner and sengun actually know how to play basketball and weren’t raw as hell. They wouldn’t have been buried like Jk and moody. You notice how bp gets a ton of minutes compared to them?

Wagner probably plays from day 1. Sengun, with his defensive issues, probably doesn't see much of the floor on this team and certainly not enough to develop like he has in Houston.

He might have gotten playing time with the Warriors but he certainly wouldn't get the usage and touches that he's gotten in Orlando.

Warriors still had aspirations and in 2022 they won the chip. How many minutes would he have gotten on that team?

Would they have given him the same number to shots?

In his rookie year, he played 31 minutes, took 12.3 FGA per game. Shot okay, 46.8/35.4/86.3.

Kuminga played 17 minutes in his rookie year, took 6.6 FGA per game. In the playoffs, he actually started 3 games that year but only averaged 8.6 MPG and took 3.8 FGA.

Orlando won 22 games in 2021-22 so there was no issue giving Wagner all those minutes and touches.

Warriors won 53 games and of course we know what happened in the playoffs.

Whose minutes would Wagner have taken from a championship team that year?

Taking all of JK's minutes and would've done much better in those minutes, probably takes some of OPJ's or BJeli's minutes as well. Franz was ready made to play in our system. He moves the ball, knows how to play in a motion offense, is really good help defender and good on ball defender. He would have slid right in immediately and helped. Realistically he's not having a huge role in 22. In 23 though he's taking over for OPJ and taking all of JGreen's minutes probably part of the closing 5 in Curry/Klay or JP/Wiggins/Franz/Dray lineup. Hell if we want to go even further into this hypothetical maybe Dray doesn't punch JP since Franz would be gunning for his spot in the starting line up and Klay sees the writing on the wall and let's JP take his spot and Dray gives up his spot. So we then start with a Curry/JP/Wiggins/Franz/Looney lineup and we're sitting pretty for the future.

[wco81]

Clearly, Orlando allowed him to create his own shots off the dribble from the start.

With the Warriors, he'd have been expected to play in the motion offense, setting screens for Curry and Klay, kick the ball out to them.

[Onus]

Clearly, Orlando allowed him to create his own shots off the dribble from the start.

With the Warriors, he'd have been expected to play in the motion offense, setting screens for Curry and Klay, kick the ball out to them.

Which is exactly what he can do. Franz was perfect for a motion type offense coming out of college. You do realize Kerr has put in options in the motion offense for KD, Wiseman, JK who love to iso. So if Franz was showing that he could beat people off the dribble consistently he'd be put in those positions as well, but he could also play motion and understand how to play that. He'd probably be even better than he is now since he would be playing with Curry and he'd understand if I get Curry open I'll be wide open. Then he'd make plays out of that. Franz was literally the perfect fit for us. But the dumbass front office choose the wrong option. And people really think these geniuses are going to be able to draft us out of the cellar. LMFAO They literally whiffed on 3 lottery picks already.

[vvoland]

Clearly, Orlando allowed him to create his own shots off the dribble from the start.

With the Warriors, he'd have been expected to play in the motion offense, setting screens for Curry and Klay, kick the ball out to them.

Which is exactly what he can do. Franz was perfect for a motion type offense coming out of college. You do realize Kerr has put in options in the motion offense for KD, Wiseman, JK who love to iso. So if Franz was showing that he could beat people off the dribble consistently he'd be put in those positions as well, but he could also play motion and understand how to play that. He'd probably be even better than he is now since he would be playing with Curry and he'd understand if I get Curry open I'll be wide open. Then he'd make plays out of that. Franz was literally the perfect fit for us. But the dumbass front office choose the wrong option. And people really think these geniuses are going to be able to draft us out of the cellar. LMFAO They literally whiffed on 3 lottery picks already.

What makes you say that? I don't remember Michigan running a motion offense but, to be fair, I don't watch a ton of college ball. While Franz has the tools to play in a motion offense, plenty of players with tools fail. Especially, young players. Kerr ran a more traditional offense for KD but he's a top 3 scorer of all time. He had looser reins for Wiseman but that team was "done," or so they thought. It took 3+ years to finally let JK operate with some freedom on offense and only after getting him to eliminate large chunks of his offensive game - not that he shouldn't have.

It's clear that the pick should have been Wagner over JK. I doubt Franz would be a seamless fit with a roster/team philosophy as unique as the warriors. Plus, they won the title that season, are we sure giving Franz real minutes/shots still allows us to win? Everything had to break right for us to get #4, do we still do so if we picked Franz and actually gave him some runway?

[Onus]

Clearly, Orlando allowed him to create his own shots off the dribble from the start.

With the Warriors, he'd have been expected to play in the motion offense, setting screens for Curry and Klay, kick the ball out to them.

Which is exactly what he can do. Franz was perfect for a motion type offense coming out of college. You do realize Kerr has put in options in the motion offense for KD, Wiseman, JK who love to iso. So if Franz was showing that he could beat people off the dribble consistently he'd be put in those positions as well, but he could also play motion and understand how to play that. He'd probably be even better than he is now since he would be playing with Curry and he'd understand if I get Curry open I'll be wide open. Then he'd make plays out of that. Franz was literally the perfect fit for us. But the dumbass front office choose the wrong option. And people really think these geniuses are going to be able to draft us out of the cellar. LMFAO They literally whiffed on 3 lottery picks already.

What makes you say that? I don't remember Michigan running a motion offense but, to be fair, I don't watch a ton of college ball. While Franz has the tools to play in a motion offense, plenty of players with tools fail. Especially, young players. Kerr ran a more traditional offense for KD but he's a top 3 scorer of all time. He had looser reins for Wiseman but that team was "done," or so they thought. It took 3+ years to finally let JK operate with some freedom on offense and only after getting him to eliminate large chunks of his offensive game - not that he shouldn't have.

It's clear that the pick should have been Wagner over JK. I doubt Franz would be a seamless fit with a roster/team philosophy as unique as the warriors. Plus, they won the title that season, are we sure giving Franz real minutes/shots still allows us to win? Everything had to break right for us to get #4, do we still do so if we picked Franz and actually gave him some runway?

Because every single scouting report remarked how Franz was a high iq player, who was able to make quick reads. He had international experience (where they play team basketball).

[wco81]

Clearly, Orlando allowed him to create his own shots off the dribble from the start.

With the Warriors, he'd have been expected to play in the motion offense, setting screens for Curry and Klay, kick the ball out to them.

Which is exactly what he can do. Franz was perfect for a motion type offense coming out of college. You do realize Kerr has put in options in the motion offense for KD, Wiseman, JK who love to iso. So if Franz was showing that he could beat people off the dribble consistently he'd be put in those positions as well, but he could also play motion and understand how to play that. He'd probably be even better than he is now since he would be playing with Curry and he'd understand if I get Curry open I'll be wide open. Then he'd make plays out of that. Franz was literally the perfect fit for us. But the dumbass front office choose the wrong option. And people really think these geniuses are going to be able to draft us out of the cellar. LMFAO They literally whiffed on 3 lottery picks already.

What makes you say that? I don't remember Michigan running a motion offense but, to be fair, I don't watch a ton of college ball. While Franz has the tools to play in a motion offense, plenty of players with tools fail. Especially, young players. Kerr ran a more traditional offense for KD but he's a top 3 scorer of all time. He had looser reins for Wiseman but that team was "done," or so they thought. It took 3+ years to finally let JK operate with some freedom on offense and only after getting him to eliminate large chunks of his offensive game - not that he shouldn't have.

It's clear that the pick should have been Wagner over JK. I doubt Franz would be a seamless fit with a roster/team philosophy as unique as the warriors. Plus, they won the title that season, are we sure giving Franz real minutes/shots still allows us to win? Everything had to break right for us to get #4, do we still do so if we picked Franz and actually gave him some runway?

That's the million dollar question.

IIRC, they got off to a very hot start that season, with OPJ and Bjelica having big impact. GP2 as well.

Obviously they weren't going to give rookies a lot of playing time when the rotation of these vets started out so well.

So if Franz could have made significant contributions in 17 minutes or so, he'd have gotten those minutes.

But the title alone was enough to not risk that chemistry.

People assumed that Franz had a higher floor and lower ceiling than JK. That may turn out to be the case still.

Orlando has collected so many high lotto picks and they've been pretty good players. Maybe only Banchero will be an all-NBA level star or the best team on a very good playoffs team.

Remember, the Magic hasn't won anything yet. They went 7 games in their first playoffs series last year.

We will see if they made strides this year but it's going to come down to Pablo and Franz making their shots. Before his injury, Franz was making some big shots, winning games.

He still has to show out in the playoffs.

Orlando's biggest weakness is 3-point shooting. They're at the bottom of the league in attempts and 3P%.

That may ultimately hold them back, make them one and done in the playoffs again.

[SpreeS]

Wagner has spent around 20% more time with ball in hands than Curry in this season. He is 3rd non guard player with spending time with ball on the floor after Lebron and Giannis….what motion offence is here? Pipe dream

[Onus]

Bkn and sac arguing about a single first for cam j and whether it should be protected or unprotected. I’d do that even though it’s damn near impossible to do money wise.

[vvoland]

Which is exactly what he can do. Franz was perfect for a motion type offense coming out of college. You do realize Kerr has put in options in the motion offense for KD, Wiseman, JK who love to iso. So if Franz was showing that he could beat people off the dribble consistently he'd be put in those positions as well, but he could also play motion and understand how to play that. He'd probably be even better than he is now since he would be playing with Curry and he'd understand if I get Curry open I'll be wide open. Then he'd make plays out of that. Franz was literally the perfect fit for us. But the dumbass front office choose the wrong option. And people really think these geniuses are going to be able to draft us out of the cellar. LMFAO They literally whiffed on 3 lottery picks already.

What makes you say that? I don't remember Michigan running a motion offense but, to be fair, I don't watch a ton of college ball. While Franz has the tools to play in a motion offense, plenty of players with tools fail. Especially, young players. Kerr ran a more traditional offense for KD but he's a top 3 scorer of all time. He had looser reins for Wiseman but that team was "done," or so they thought. It took 3+ years to finally let JK operate with some freedom on offense and only after getting him to eliminate large chunks of his offensive game - not that he shouldn't have.

It's clear that the pick should have been Wagner over JK. I doubt Franz would be a seamless fit with a roster/team philosophy as unique as the warriors. Plus, they won the title that season, are we sure giving Franz real minutes/shots still allows us to win? Everything had to break right for us to get #4, do we still do so if we picked Franz and actually gave him some runway?

Because every single scouting report remarked how Franz was a high iq player, who was able to make quick reads. He had international experience (where they play team basketball).

All of this is true and can also apply to schroeder, saric, and caspi, for example. Of the high iq euros we had roll through the team, only belli played well. Again, I'm not even saying Franz wouldn't succeed, I'm just saying he probably wouldn't do as well as he has after 3 years of running high PnR/Iso offense as a 2nd option hunting mismatches. He's a smart player who would fit better than JK or Moody have but would he be a max extension, all-nba level rookie by start of year 4 on this squad? I would have to guess it's unlikely.

[vvoland]

Which is exactly what he can do. Franz was perfect for a motion type offense coming out of college. You do realize Kerr has put in options in the motion offense for KD, Wiseman, JK who love to iso. So if Franz was showing that he could beat people off the dribble consistently he'd be put in those positions as well, but he could also play motion and understand how to play that. He'd probably be even better than he is now since he would be playing with Curry and he'd understand if I get Curry open I'll be wide open. Then he'd make plays out of that. Franz was literally the perfect fit for us. But the dumbass front office choose the wrong option. And people really think these geniuses are going to be able to draft us out of the cellar. LMFAO They literally whiffed on 3 lottery picks already.

What makes you say that? I don't remember Michigan running a motion offense but, to be fair, I don't watch a ton of college ball. While Franz has the tools to play in a motion offense, plenty of players with tools fail. Especially, young players. Kerr ran a more traditional offense for KD but he's a top 3 scorer of all time. He had looser reins for Wiseman but that team was "done," or so they thought. It took 3+ years to finally let JK operate with some freedom on offense and only after getting him to eliminate large chunks of his offensive game - not that he shouldn't have.

It's clear that the pick should have been Wagner over JK. I doubt Franz would be a seamless fit with a roster/team philosophy as unique as the warriors. Plus, they won the title that season, are we sure giving Franz real minutes/shots still allows us to win? Everything had to break right for us to get #4, do we still do so if we picked Franz and actually gave him some runway?

That's the million dollar question.

IIRC, they got off to a very hot start that season, with OPJ and Bjelica having big impact. GP2 as well.

Obviously they weren't going to give rookies a lot of playing time when the rotation of these vets started out so well.

So if Franz could have made significant contributions in 17 minutes or so, he'd have gotten those minutes.

But the title alone was enough to not risk that chemistry.

People assumed that Franz had a higher floor and lower ceiling than JK. That may turn out to be the case still.

Orlando has collected so many high lotto picks and they've been pretty good players. Maybe only Banchero will be an all-NBA level star or the best team on a very good playoffs team.

Remember, the Magic hasn't won anything yet. They went 7 games in their first playoffs series last year.

We will see if they made strides this year but it's going to come down to Pablo and Franz making their shots. Before his injury, Franz was making some big shots, winning games.

He still has to show out in the playoffs.

Orlando's biggest weakness is 3-point shooting. They're at the bottom of the league in attempts and 3P%.

That may ultimately hold them back, make them one and done in the playoffs again.

It's why I'm not that upset about the missed picks or trades. Would it have been great to draft lamelo or ant over wiseman? sure. Do i think we still win at least 1 title between 2020 and when steph retires if we do so? I'm not really sure. Lamelo or Ant would have def gotten time in their 2nd year and I am not sure we win a title with one of them getting 25 mins a game and taking Poole or Klay's place without friction. It was 100% a vibes title run. We absolutely needed wigs and poole to show out during that playoff run and I don't know how a lamelo/ant or franz lurking in the wings trying to take their spot (and dray's or klay's) would have rocked the boat. We've seen how Klay and Dray have been... let's say "reluctant" ... to accept that the 2nd timeline became the present sooner than they thought. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, as they say. When it comes to NBA titles, I'd rather have the 1 than have all the prospects in the world but still trying to win AT LEAST 1.

Now had we traded the #2 pick+ stuff for Jrue, I do like our chances of winning at least one because it makes us better while making milwaukee and later, boston, worse but still, I don't feel great about it.

[wco81]

Ant wasn't an option. Minnesota drafted him #1.

He got a lot of shots in his rookie year and towards the end he was putting up some big scoring games but I don't know if the efficiency was there.

He'd be great to have on the team, since Wiseman was a bust.

But in 2021-22, the players who shot the most were Curry, Klay, Poole, Wiggins. They drove the 53-win team that won the title.

Remember in Wiseman's first game, he scored like 20 and shot a couple of 3s. Fortunately he wasn't taking shots from other players by the time they made that title run.

[HiRez]

Let's be honest, if LaMelo was here instead of Poole, he was definitely going to be punched by Draymond anyway.

[wco81]

Curry would have punched him too.

[Onus]

What makes you say that? I don't remember Michigan running a motion offense but, to be fair, I don't watch a ton of college ball. While Franz has the tools to play in a motion offense, plenty of players with tools fail. Especially, young players. Kerr ran a more traditional offense for KD but he's a top 3 scorer of all time. He had looser reins for Wiseman but that team was "done," or so they thought. It took 3+ years to finally let JK operate with some freedom on offense and only after getting him to eliminate large chunks of his offensive game - not that he shouldn't have.

It's clear that the pick should have been Wagner over JK. I doubt Franz would be a seamless fit with a roster/team philosophy as unique as the warriors. Plus, they won the title that season, are we sure giving Franz real minutes/shots still allows us to win? Everything had to break right for us to get #4, do we still do so if we picked Franz and actually gave him some runway?

Because every single scouting report remarked how Franz was a high iq player, who was able to make quick reads. He had international experience (where they play team basketball).

All of this is true and can also apply to schroeder, saric, and caspi, for example. Of the high iq euros we had roll through the team, only belli played well. Again, I'm not even saying Franz wouldn't succeed, I'm just saying he probably wouldn't do as well as he has after 3 years of running high PnR/Iso offense as a 2nd option hunting mismatches. He's a smart player who would fit better than JK or Moody have but would he be a max extension, all-nba level rookie by start of year 4 on this squad? I would have to guess it's unlikely.

Schroeder doesn’t make quick reads. Saric and Caspi fit they just forgot how to shoot and couldn’t guard a chair. Franz being a superior defender in all facets guarantees that he’d be a better fit than both jk and moody.