Around the NBA IV

[The-Power]

The Kobe v. LeBron debate is dead.

True, it's been dead for a long, long time although it's still not completely buried for whatever reason.

[BdeRegt]

Any debate with LeBron that doesn't involve MJ is ridiculous to me. I have them as clear top 2. I take LBJ if drafting a player and you get him for whole career (MJ's baseball hiatus/suspension?) is a big hit against him for me and I take MJ at his peak if need to win one game. With that stated, I have MJ as GOAT but LeBron putting up best career but I think MJ was better player.

[Impuniti]

Any debate with LeBron that doesn't involve MJ is ridiculous to me. I have them as clear top 2. I take LBJ if drafting a player and you get him for whole career (MJ's baseball hiatus/suspension?) is a big hit against him for me and I take MJ at his peak if need to win one game. With that stated, I have MJ as GOAT but LeBron putting up best career but I think MJ was better player.

He's created two superteams to win rings because he couldn't do it beforehand on top of playing at a historically terrible eastern conference. I have a few players clearly ahead of him. Lebron is probably the most consistent best player ever though, but that's not enough to put him at the top. He needs 2 more rings to pass the two ahead of him and 1 more to possibly pass Mike. The idea that he is as good as Mike is insulting when the GOAT has literally twice as many championships.

Kobe is not the same level as LeBron, I just don't see him as top 2 or anywhere near Mike.

[Quazza]

D Wade signs with the Cavs

a few years ago I may have been concerned. Now ? Meh

[wco81]

If he starts, bad spacing on the starters.

OTOH, JR could come in and light it up against subs.

Kind of suspect Lebron prefers to play with shooters to space out the court and let him create. But could he tell his friend not to come?

[The-Power]

Any debate with LeBron that doesn't involve MJ is ridiculous to me. I have them as clear top 2. I take LBJ if drafting a player and you get him for whole career (MJ's baseball hiatus/suspension?) is a big hit against him for me and I take MJ at his peak if need to win one game. With that stated, I have MJ as GOAT but LeBron putting up best career but I think MJ was better player.

He's created two superteams to win rings because he couldn't do it beforehand on top of playing at a historically terrible eastern conference. I have a few players clearly ahead of him. Lebron is probably the most consistent best player ever though, but that's not enough to put him at the top. He needs 2 more rings to pass the two ahead of him and 1 more to possibly pass Mike. The idea that he is as good as Mike is insulting when the GOAT has literally twice as many championships.

Insulting? Yeah, no. If rings count as much as they appear to do for you then Russell should be your GOAT. By the way, Jordan didn't win anything on his own either. Those Bulls' teams he led to championships were way better than what LeBron had during his first stint in Cleveland.

I'm of the opinion that what matters is what you do on the court and how you allow your franchise to build around you. Whether that leads to rings or not is dependent on a lot of circumstances you can't do much or anything about. It's also hard to not see the irony of counting rings but implicitly – unless I'm reading this wrong but I know a lot of people who have that stance regardless – criticizing LeBron for leaving Cleveland for superior teams.

Good arguments can be made for Jordan > LeBron and even guys like Russell, Kareem or Duncan have cases depending on what you value (as long as you're consistent with it throughout your entire ranking process) but counting rings just doesn't do anything for me; it always looks like a very lazy and blatantly flawed approach of an individual player's greatness.

[Impuniti]

Any debate with LeBron that doesn't involve MJ is ridiculous to me. I have them as clear top 2. I take LBJ if drafting a player and you get him for whole career (MJ's baseball hiatus/suspension?) is a big hit against him for me and I take MJ at his peak if need to win one game. With that stated, I have MJ as GOAT but LeBron putting up best career but I think MJ was better player.

He's created two superteams to win rings because he couldn't do it beforehand on top of playing at a historically terrible eastern conference. I have a few players clearly ahead of him. Lebron is probably the most consistent best player ever though, but that's not enough to put him at the top. He needs 2 more rings to pass the two ahead of him and 1 more to possibly pass Mike. The idea that he is as good as Mike is insulting when the GOAT has literally twice as many championships.

Insulting? Yeah, no. If rings count as much as they appear to do for you then Russell should be your GOAT. By the way, Jordan didn't win anything on his own either. Those Bulls' teams he led to championships were way better than what LeBron had during his first stint in Cleveland.

I'm of the opinion that what matters is what you do on the court and how you allow your franchise to build around you. Whether that leads to rings or not is dependent on a lot of circumstances you can't do much or anything about. It's also hard to not see the irony of counting rings but implicitly – unless I'm reading this wrong but I know a lot of people who have that stance regardless – criticizing LeBron for leaving Cleveland for superior teams.

Good arguments can be made for Jordan > LeBron and even guys like Russell, Kareem or Duncan have cases depending on what you value (as long as you're consistent with it throughout your entire ranking process) but counting rings just doesn't do anything for me; it always looks like a very lazy and blatantly flawed approach of an individual player's greatness.

I don't have Russell on there because of how diabolically bad basketball was then, on top of him going vs plumbers and electricians in the league, as well as the low amount of teams which meant less competition. KAJ to me is the only disputable player that can be up to MJ's level, but I still think MJ deserves the crown. Duncan just wasn't dominating enough to be in the conversation, but he is in the conversation with Lebron, who I'd rank 4-6.

I never said any player did it alone, but no top tier player stacked the deck twice (and will very likely do it again next year). He can do what he wants, but I find it appalling after he did this, people consider what he's achieved since his Miami days some historic, legendary feat (it isn't). He's been playing in the worst a conference has been in 2 decades. I don't think Lebron has done enough on court. In terms of complete player, he's probably the most complete and one of the best scorers ever. But I do think he should have done more than he has, ie. have more series like the PIston, Boston and 2016 Warrior one. He also seems to make the system about him entirely which is a good.. and bad thing. Warriors for ex run the system through Steph but he allows the system to flow naturally as a team unlike Lebron-ball. Even KD came to the Warriors and changed his style not to hamper this successful system and well. it shows.

[FrigginFalcon]

He's created two superteams to win rings because he couldn't do it beforehand on top of playing at a historically terrible eastern conference. I have a few players clearly ahead of him. Lebron is probably the most consistent best player ever though, but that's not enough to put him at the top. He needs 2 more rings to pass the two ahead of him and 1 more to possibly pass Mike. The idea that he is as good as Mike is insulting when the GOAT has literally twice as many championships.

Insulting? Yeah, no. If rings count as much as they appear to do for you then Russell should be your GOAT. By the way, Jordan didn't win anything on his own either. Those Bulls' teams he led to championships were way better than what LeBron had during his first stint in Cleveland.

I'm of the opinion that what matters is what you do on the court and how you allow your franchise to build around you. Whether that leads to rings or not is dependent on a lot of circumstances you can't do much or anything about. It's also hard to not see the irony of counting rings but implicitly – unless I'm reading this wrong but I know a lot of people who have that stance regardless – criticizing LeBron for leaving Cleveland for superior teams.

Good arguments can be made for Jordan > LeBron and even guys like Russell, Kareem or Duncan have cases depending on what you value (as long as you're consistent with it throughout your entire ranking process) but counting rings just doesn't do anything for me; it always looks like a very lazy and blatantly flawed approach of an individual player's greatness.

I don't have Russell on there because of how diabolically bad basketball was then, on top of him going vs plumbers and electricians in the league, as well as the low amount of teams which meant less competition. KAJ to me is the only disputable player that can be up to MJ's level, but I still think MJ deserves the crown. Duncan just wasn't dominating enough to be in the conversation, but he is in the conversation with Lebron, who I'd rank 4-6.

I never said any player did it alone, but no top tier player stacked the deck twice (and will very likely do it again next year). He can do what he wants, but I find it appalling after he did this, people consider what he's achieved since his Miami days some historic, legendary feat (it isn't). He's been playing in the worst a conference has been in 2 decades. I don't think Lebron has done enough on court. In terms of complete player, he's probably the most complete and one of the best scorers ever. But I do think he should have done more than he has, ie. have more series like the PIston, Boston and 2016 Warrior one. He also seems to make the system about him entirely which is a good.. and bad thing. Warriors for ex run the system through Steph but he allows the system to flow naturally as a team unlike Lebron-ball. Even KD came to the Warriors and changed his style not to hamper this successful system and well. it shows.

I agree. This includes your comments about Steph, but for the same reason, I think that you should give more credit to Duncan, who also could have achieved much better numbers had he not been willing to be such an effective "system" player. And as successful as Duncan was with the Spurs, imagine if he had moved twice, or even three times as it now appears LeFlop will do, in order to form or join "super teams."

I don't object to players joining good teams, but IMO there does need to be a trade off where obtaining rings in this fashion detracts from individual legacies. I DO object to private agreements like the one that brought Bosh AND James to the Heat -- that is a form of collusion that goes beyond individual decisions and explicitly undermines the idea of fair competition to build the best teams.

[Mylie10]

You can disagree with players talking and wanting to play with each other all you want, but we have this thing called FREE agency. It was created in order for players to have a say in the destiny of their careers. I am fully behind each and every player being able to make their own decisions in regards to where they want to play, and to how much they're willing to take pay cuts in order to do it.

Its American capitalism at its best.

[Coxy]

You can disagree with players talking and wanting to play with each other all you want, but we have this thing called FREE agency. It was created in order for players to have a say in the destiny of their careers. I am fully behind each and every player being able to make their own decisions in regards to where they want to play, and to how much they're willing to take pay cuts in order to do it.

Its American capitalism at its best.

Agreed. The players are the product, they are the ones that put the show on to make gazillions of profit for everyone involved with the sport, so they should be the ones that can dictate their careers as they see fit under the rules of the league. Without the players, there is no league.

[turk3d]

Good article on our old whipping boy, Harrison Barnes:
https://basketball.realgm.com/analysis/247525/Harrison-Barnes-Isnt-Reliably-Boring-Hes-Boringly-Reliable

[watch1958]

Ben Simmons looks nice for the Sixers. Maybe they'll decide they don't need Richaun Holmes.....

[cpower]

Wiggins just signed for 150 mill. wow great news for us.. now where will be Butler headed next?

[FrigginFalcon]

Wiggins just signed for 150 mill. wow great news for us.. now where will be Butler headed next?

Yeah, they're over the Cap already, and that's with Wiggins AND Towns both cheap. So they'll be repeat offenders next year, and WELL over the cap even with Towns earning ~$8 million. That's going to be a painful tax payment, but maybe something they can swallow.

But the year AFTER that, when Towns' big payday comes due, every dollar they pay Towns above $8 million will cost them ~$6.00. You've got to believe Towns will have to get the maximum extension to stay, and that'll be about $25 million in its first year, and that will be an incremental cost of (25 -8) x 6 = $102 million. And both Towns' and Wiggins' salaries will keep creeping up year by year.

[cpower]

Wiggins just signed for 150 mill. wow great news for us.. now where will be Butler headed next?

Yeah, they're over the Cap already, and that's with Wiggins AND Towns both cheap. So they'll be repeat offenders next year, and WELL over the cap even with Towns earning ~$8 million. That's going to be a painful tax payment, but maybe something they can swallow.

But the year AFTER that, when Towns' big payday comes due, every dollar they pay Towns above $8 million will cost them ~$6.00. You've got to believe Towns will have to get the maximum extension to stay, and that'll be about $25 million in its first year, and that will be an incremental cost of (25 -8) x 6 = $102 million. And both Towns' and Wiggins' salaries will keep creeping up year by year.

And If I am Butler , why the hell would I spend time training this Wiggins kid who makes a lot more than me and a lot worse than me? After 2018 the wolves will have to make a big decision resigning KAT and Butler. I feel like the wolves messed up big time again while they could have traded Wiggins for more defense and three point shooting.

[couchie]

Butler would do it because he is a team player that wants to make the playoffs and perhaps get better. It would also up his value for his future? Why not do it?

[WESCO]

Between preseason and today D Rose looks like he got his legs back

[cpower]

Hayward broke his leg. looks like we will have another rematch with the cavs this year

[BW32]

Hayward broke his leg. looks like we will have another rematch with the cavs this year

There is only one player status that changes who comes out of the East and that's Lebron.

[Coxy]

Bobby Portis thumping Mirotic and rearranging his jaw is just too funny. The Bulls are in shambles.