Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[ILOVEIT]

JK has a ton of talent.
The issue is the best things he does don't work with our Curry/ball movement offense.

Imagine if Charles Barkley was on the Warriors next to Curry....Barkley pounding the ball and dominating without passing would drive Kerr nuts! The point is that it's not the player....it's the system.

JK is a "take the game over" player. He's not a fit into the offensive scheme player.

[DevinVassell]

Brooklyn had interest in JK. Indiana is looking for a center after trading Turner away. Warriors need a reliable wing and more size.

Something along the lines of...

Warriors get A.Nesmith, I.Jackson, D.Wolf

Pacers get N.Claxton

Nets get Kuminga, TJD, 26/1st

[Twinkie defense]

JK has a ton of talent.
The issue is the best things he does don't work with our Curry/ball movement offense.

Imagine if Charles Barkley was on the Warriors next to Curry....Barkley pounding the ball and dominating without passing would drive Kerr nuts! The point is that it's not the player....it's the system.

JK is a "take the game over" player. He's not a fit into the offensive scheme player.

Kerr would have loved Barkley. He would be our small ball center.

[EvanZ]

JK has a ton of talent.
The issue is the best things he does don't work with our Curry/ball movement offense.

Imagine if Charles Barkley was on the Warriors next to Curry....Barkley pounding the ball and dominating without passing would drive Kerr nuts! The point is that it's not the player....it's the system.

JK is a "take the game over" player. He's not a fit into the offensive scheme player.

Barkley is not all that different from Jimmy Butler in mentality or honestly play style. The issue is JK is a "take the game over" player that can't actually take a game over. He's simply not talented enough. Not skilled enough. He needs a better handle and a better shot. And not just from 3 but from 2. He's just mid and best suited for cutting to the basket and getting out in transition. Kerr knows it. The staff knows it. His teammates know it. The fans know it. We know it.

The only one who doesn't know it yet is JK. He'll figure it out eventually but not on Steph's timeline.

[vvoland]

JK has a ton of talent.
The issue is the best things he does don't work with our Curry/ball movement offense.

Imagine if Charles Barkley was on the Warriors next to Curry....Barkley pounding the ball and dominating without passing would drive Kerr nuts! The point is that it's not the player....it's the system.

JK is a "take the game over" player. He's not a fit into the offensive scheme player.

That is just, objectively, NOT TRUE. JK works best w/ Curry. look at the lineup data if you don't believe me. He is one of the best players to pair with Steph on this roster (buddy and podz are the other 2).

Where he has struggled, especially this year, is in the non-curry lineups. Just think back to the start of the season. Full roster and JK is playing like none of us thought he could - within the sytem, cutting, rebounding, and not forcing shots. Then Steph is sick and the rotations fluctuate due to health/workload and JK starts to struggle, mostly on offense. Still rebounding and defending on-ball, but his eFG and 3pt% drop, quickly.

The working theory is that was because the first 10 games were not real and he is not able to overcome his offensive instincts (iso, shoot first, never pass). My theory is that he felt like he was the only one that could/would create offense and tried to do too much. Was he told by Kerr to go hunt shots as we couldn't score to save our life? Probably not. Did he feel like it was now "his time" to show 'em that he's "a star"..? Probably. Does that deserve DNP-CDs in favor of TJD or Gui? Clearly, Kerr thinks it does. I do not.

If we had prime Charley Barkley and we couldn't figure out how to use him offensively, Kerr would deserve all the ire he got when Klay was still here. The Steph/Chuck PnR would be deadly. The Chuck/Steph PnR, even more so. Sir Charles running the 2nd unit offense and dominating? Yes, please. JK is not Chuck, that's the problem. Sure. He's also better than anthony lamb, gui santos, and every other player Kerr has given plenty of chances to.

Is JK a great fit here? Probably not. Is he a bad teammate/person and shouldn't get any further opportunities? Not from everything I hear. Does he fit in certain lineups better than anyone else? Yes. Resoundingly so.

This season, JK is a -4.4 per 100, in 896 possessions, per cleaning the glass. Sounds terrible, right? If you take away the ~60 possessions he's played w/ TJD, he's just -2.8. That means in the 64 possessions they've played together, they're a -24.6. But wait, you're saying -2.8 is still pretty terrible, right?

Well, in the 193 possessions he's played w/ Al Horford, they're a -25.4/100. What if we take out Al and TJD? All of a sudden, in 639 possessions, he's a +4.1 per 100. You're telling me that playing JK next to another C is a problem? Particularly when those centers can't shoot? I never would have gues.... wait... we've ALL been saying this for 3 years now.

We've all also observed that JK and Moody just can't seem to play well, at the same time. What happens when JK doesn't play with MM, TJD, or Al? Well, instead of 896 possessions, we're down to 509. In those 509 possessions, he's a +8.4. If we remove pat spencer (a ball dominant PnR guard), he's at 426 possessions and a +11.2.

In other words, for half of his possessions this season, he's played with Pat, TJD, MM, or Al. In those minutes, he's a minus infinity. In the 426 possessions where he doesn't play with any of Pat, MM, Al, or TJD he's a PLUS 11.2. The solution, to me, seems to be less DNP-CDs and more playing him in the lineups that work:
JK

+

Steph/Podz/Butler/Dray: +19.8 per 100
Steph/Butler/Dray/Post: +14.9
Steph/GP2/Buddy/Dray: 20.5

Podz/Will/Butler/Dray: +83.3 (but only 8 possessions)
Podz/Butler/Dray/Post: +8.3 (only 24 possessions)

Last number. Steph and Jimmy as a lineup combo are +8.7 per 100, in 605 possessions. Steph, Jimmy, + JK? Plus 11.9 but in only 298 possessions - less than half. I really do hope this week of practice can remind Kerr what JK brings, especially to that vet heavy lineup, that we can't find anywhere else.

[AirP.]

JK has a ton of talent.
The issue is the best things he does don't work with our Curry/ball movement offense.

Imagine if Charles Barkley was on the Warriors next to Curry....Barkley pounding the ball and dominating without passing would drive Kerr nuts! The point is that it's not the player....it's the system.

JK is a "take the game over" player. He's not a fit into the offensive scheme player.

That is just, objectively, NOT TRUE. JK works best w/ Curry. look at the lineup data if you don't believe me. He is one of the best players to pair with Steph on this roster (buddy and podz are the other 2).

Where he has struggled, especially this year, is in the non-curry lineups. Just think back to the start of the season. Full roster and JK is playing like none of us thought he could - within the sytem, cutting, rebounding, and not forcing shots. Then Steph is sick and the rotations fluctuate due to health/workload and JK starts to struggle, mostly on offense. Still rebounding and defending on-ball, but his eFG and 3pt% drop, quickly.

The working theory is that was because the first 10 games were not real and he is not able to overcome his offensive instincts (iso, shoot first, never pass). My theory is that he felt like he was the only one that could/would create offense and tried to do too much. Was he told by Kerr to go hunt shots as we couldn't score to save our life? Probably not. Did he feel like it was now "his time" to show 'em that he's "a star"..? Probably. Does that deserve DNP-CDs in favor of TJD or Gui? Clearly, Kerr thinks it does. I do not.

If we had prime Charley Barkley and we couldn't figure out how to use him offensively, Kerr would deserve all the ire he got when Klay was still here. The Steph/Chuck PnR would be deadly. The Chuck/Steph PnR, even more so. Sir Charles running the 2nd unit offense and dominating? Yes, please. JK is not Chuck, that's the problem. Sure. He's also better than anthony lamb, gui santos, and every other player Kerr has given plenty of chances to.

Is JK a great fit here? Probably not. Is he a bad teammate/person and shouldn't get any further opportunities? Not from everything I hear. Does he fit in certain lineups better than anyone else? Yes. Resoundingly so.

This season, JK is a -4.4 per 100, in 896 possessions, per cleaning the glass. Sounds terrible, right? If you take away the ~60 possessions he's played w/ TJD, he's just -2.8. That means in the 64 possessions they've played together, they're a -24.6. But wait, you're saying -2.8 is still pretty terrible, right?

Well, in the 193 possessions he's played w/ Al Horford, they're a -25.4/100. What if we take out Al and TJD? All of a sudden, in 639 possessions, he's a +4.1 per 100. You're telling me that playing JK next to another C is a problem? Particularly when those centers can't shoot? I never would have gues.... wait... we've ALL been saying this for 3 years now.

We've all also observed that JK and Moody just can't seem to play well, at the same time. What happens when JK doesn't play with MM, TJD, or Al? Well, instead of 896 possessions, we're down to 509. In those 509 possessions, he's a +8.4. If we remove pat spencer (a ball dominant PnR guard), he's at 426 possessions and a +11.2.

In other words, for half of his possessions this season, he's played with Pat, TJD, MM, or Al. In those minutes, he's a minus infinity. In the 426 possessions where he doesn't play with any of Pat, MM, Al, or TJD he's a PLUS 11.2. The solution, to me, seems to be less DNP-CDs and more playing him in the lineups that work:
JK

+

Steph/Podz/Butler/Dray: +19.8 per 100
Steph/Butler/Dray/Post: +14.9
Steph/GP2/Buddy/Dray: 20.5

Podz/Will/Butler/Dray: +83.3 (but only 8 possessions)
Podz/Butler/Dray/Post: +8.3 (only 24 possessions)

Last number. Steph and Jimmy as a lineup combo are +8.7 per 100, in 605 possessions. Steph, Jimmy, + JK? Plus 11.9 but in only 298 possessions - less than half. I really do hope this week of practice can remind Kerr what JK brings, especially to that vet heavy lineup, that we can't find anywhere else.

I'm sure a lot of those stats came from the early success GS had when Kuminga was playing within the system, I wonder what those numbers look like compared to him reverting back to iso ball.

If Kuminga plays the right way he's a great help but he just doesn't want to play that way.

Kuminga... calculated ORTG 100

The only players lower than him on GS are the guys who have been terrible offensively so far... Green(96), Santos(97) and Horford(95).

Another interesting fact... Kuminga is tied for last on GS for calculated DRTG at 114.

[vvoland]

This season, JK is a -4.4 per 100, in 896 possessions, per cleaning the glass. Sounds terrible, right? If you take away the ~60 possessions he's played w/ TJD, he's just -2.8. That means in the 64 possessions they've played together, they're a -24.6. But wait, you're saying -2.8 is still pretty terrible, right?

Well, in the 193 possessions he's played w/ Al Horford, they're a -25.4/100. What if we take out Al and TJD? All of a sudden, in 639 possessions, he's a +4.1 per 100. You're telling me that playing JK next to another C is a problem? Particularly when those centers can't shoot? I never would have gues.... wait... we've ALL been saying this for 3 years now.

We've all also observed that JK and Moody just can't seem to play well, at the same time. What happens when JK doesn't play with MM, TJD, or Al? Well, instead of 896 possessions, we're down to 509. In those 509 possessions, he's a +8.4. If we remove pat spencer (a ball dominant PnR guard), he's at 426 possessions and a +11.2.

In other words, for half of his possessions this season, he's played with Pat, TJD, MM, or Al. In those minutes, he's a minus infinity. In the 426 possessions where he doesn't play with any of Pat, MM, Al, or TJD he's a PLUS 11.2. The solution, to me, seems to be less DNP-CDs and more playing him in the lineups that work:
JK

+

Steph/Podz/Butler/Dray: +19.8 per 100
Steph/Butler/Dray/Post: +14.9
Steph/GP2/Buddy/Dray: 20.5

Podz/Will/Butler/Dray: +83.3 (but only 8 possessions)
Podz/Butler/Dray/Post: +8.3 (only 24 possessions)

Last number. Steph and Jimmy as a lineup combo are +8.7 per 100, in 605 possessions. Steph, Jimmy, + JK? Plus 11.9 but in only 298 possessions - less than half. I really do hope this week of practice can remind Kerr what JK brings, especially to that vet heavy lineup, that we can't find anywhere else.

I'm sure a lot of those stats came from the early success GS had when Kuminga was playing within the system, I wonder what those numbers look like compared to him reverting back to iso ball.

If Kuminga plays the right way he's a great help but he just doesn't want to play that way.

Kuminga... calculated ORTG 100

The only players lower than him on GS are the guys who have been terrible offensively so far... Green(96), Santos(97) and Horford(95).

Another interesting fact... Kuminga is tied for last on GS for calculated DRTG at 114.

That's kind of my exact point.

Early in the season, with Steph healthy and Kerr actually playing JK w/ Steph, Dray, and JB - he wasn't hunting shots, 'wanted to play the right way,' and 'within the system.'

Right before and after his injury, when curry was sick/hurt and the rest of the lineup was in flux, he was no longer playing with Steph/Dray/JB and, instead, found himself playing with TJD, Pat, MM, and Al. His play dropped like a rock. Is that because he "wants to hunt shots" or because he's playing in a lineup that, literally, could not score? That "the system" doesn't work when Steph isn't there. Doubly so when Jimmy is also absent?

I don't know. I really don't. But I don't think the answer is to bench JK and play Gui. The answer, to me, is to continue playing JK in the lineups that work and/or trade him for someone Kerr WILL play. We're just not good enough to punt on JK and his 23M salary slot.

[Twinkie defense]

JK has a ton of talent.
The issue is the best things he does don't work with our Curry/ball movement offense.

Imagine if Charles Barkley was on the Warriors next to Curry....Barkley pounding the ball and dominating without passing would drive Kerr nuts! The point is that it's not the player....it's the system.

JK is a "take the game over" player. He's not a fit into the offensive scheme player.

Barkley is not all that different from Jimmy Butler in mentality or honestly play style. The issue is JK is a "take the game over" player that can't actually take a game over. He's simply not talented enough. Not skilled enough. He needs a better handle and a better shot. And not just from 3 but from 2. He's just mid and best suited for cutting to the basket and getting out in transition. Kerr knows it. The staff knows it. His teammates know it. The fans know it. We know it.

The only one who doesn't know it yet is JK. He'll figure it out eventually but not on Steph's timeline.

His ego won't let him but he would be an excellent version of GPII.

[Kuya]

What is Kumingas trade value as of today honestly

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[Twinkie defense]

Everyone should be better playing alongside Steph, he carries JK on his back.

[vvoland]

Everyone should be better playing alongside Steph, he carries JK on his back.

In certain lineups, yes, JK is a burden on Steph. In others, he's a complement. It's been clear for years that jk needs to play with shooters and creators if he's to play like Marion.

[Twinkie defense]

What is Kumingas trade value as of today honestly

Not that much by himself - there are probably bad/rebuilding teams with usable vets they would trade to take a flier on Kuminga. But Warriors can also attach all kinds of assets to that $22.5 mil expiring contract to entice a team to send them something good.

[marthafokker]

JK would have benefited from CP3 if he was 30 YO instead of the one Dubs got.

Unfortunately, there is no one close to peak CP3 on this roster.

I want JK traded to a team with a real passing point guard. Luka or Joker might be the closest to one in current NBA.

Wonder if Nuggets willing to trade Cam for JK. That would be a fun experiment.

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

This season, JK is a -4.4 per 100, in 896 possessions, per cleaning the glass. Sounds terrible, right? If you take away the ~60 possessions he's played w/ TJD, he's just -2.8. That means in the 64 possessions they've played together, they're a -24.6. But wait, you're saying -2.8 is still pretty terrible, right?

Well, in the 193 possessions he's played w/ Al Horford, they're a -25.4/100. What if we take out Al and TJD? All of a sudden, in 639 possessions, he's a +4.1 per 100. You're telling me that playing JK next to another C is a problem? Particularly when those centers can't shoot? I never would have gues.... wait... we've ALL been saying this for 3 years now.

We've all also observed that JK and Moody just can't seem to play well, at the same time. What happens when JK doesn't play with MM, TJD, or Al? Well, instead of 896 possessions, we're down to 509. In those 509 possessions, he's a +8.4. If we remove pat spencer (a ball dominant PnR guard), he's at 426 possessions and a +11.2.

In other words, for half of his possessions this season, he's played with Pat, TJD, MM, or Al. In those minutes, he's a minus infinity. In the 426 possessions where he doesn't play with any of Pat, MM, Al, or TJD he's a PLUS 11.2. The solution, to me, seems to be less DNP-CDs and more playing him in the lineups that work:
JK

+

Steph/Podz/Butler/Dray: +19.8 per 100
Steph/Butler/Dray/Post: +14.9
Steph/GP2/Buddy/Dray: 20.5

Podz/Will/Butler/Dray: +83.3 (but only 8 possessions)
Podz/Butler/Dray/Post: +8.3 (only 24 possessions)

Last number. Steph and Jimmy as a lineup combo are +8.7 per 100, in 605 possessions. Steph, Jimmy, + JK? Plus 11.9 but in only 298 possessions - less than half. I really do hope this week of practice can remind Kerr what JK brings, especially to that vet heavy lineup, that we can't find anywhere else.

I'm sure a lot of those stats came from the early success GS had when Kuminga was playing within the system, I wonder what those numbers look like compared to him reverting back to iso ball.

If Kuminga plays the right way he's a great help but he just doesn't want to play that way.

Kuminga... calculated ORTG 100

The only players lower than him on GS are the guys who have been terrible offensively so far... Green(96), Santos(97) and Horford(95).

Another interesting fact... Kuminga is tied for last on GS for calculated DRTG at 114.

That's kind of my exact point.

Early in the season, with Steph healthy and Kerr actually playing JK w/ Steph, Dray, and JB - he wasn't hunting shots, 'wanted to play the right way,' and 'within the system.'

Right before and after his injury, when curry was sick/hurt and the rest of the lineup was in flux, he was no longer playing with Steph/Dray/JB and, instead, found himself playing with TJD, Pat, MM, and Al. His play dropped like a rock. Is that because he "wants to hunt shots" or because he's playing in a lineup that, literally, could not score? That "the system" doesn't work when Steph isn't there. Doubly so when Jimmy is also absent?

I don't know. I really don't. But I don't think the answer is to bench JK and play Gui. The answer, to me, is to continue playing JK in the lineups that work and/or trade him for someone Kerr WILL play. We're just not good enough to punt on JK and his 23M salary slot.

Kuminga started playing outside the system before Curry was hurt which was something I figured was going to happen although I hoped wasn't going to happen, having the focus early on to try to play differently but then go back to the way that feels right to him.

A very dangerous thing for Kerr is to keep playing Kuminga with Kuminga not playing within the system, that's just asking for everyone else to get frustrated not knowing what is going to happen on the court and possibly pulling everyone down.

It's really simple at this time and Kerr has been saying this his interviews, you have to play how the coach wants you to play or you're not going to have a team wanting you to play for them. Right now, there's still desperate teams out there willing to roll the dice on Kuminga, but I think it's quite possible Kuminga is out of the NBA by age 29. Luckily Kuminga has made enough money to live comfortably for the rest of his life.

Let's put this out there right now, Kuminga is not good enough to basically tell the coach I'll play how I want to play (which he's currently doing with his actions on the court). To me, it's quite disrespectful to do that to a coach who has many championships now as a player and as a coach.

[watch1958]

Everyone should be better playing alongside Steph, he carries JK on his back.

It is troubling that JK isn’t playing well with Spencer. Out of Pat’s ten highest minute 2 man combos, JK is the worst.

You’d hope that a simpler offense would be easier for Kuminga, but I guess not.

[northoakland510]

Everyone should be better playing alongside Steph, he carries JK on his back.

It is troubling that JK isn’t playing well with Spencer. Out of Pat’s ten highest minute 2 man combos, JK is the worst.

You’d hope that a simpler offense would be easier for Kuminga, but I guess not.

It's crazy that the dude is refusing to play within the offense. He will get a ride awakening on another team when there is no spacing and he can't iso.

Sent from my motorola razr 2025 using Tapatalk

[Crazy-Canuck]

Everyone should be better playing alongside Steph, he carries JK on his back.

It is troubling that JK isn’t playing well with Spencer. Out of Pat’s ten highest minute 2 man combos, JK is the worst.

You’d hope that a simpler offense would be easier for Kuminga, but I guess not.

It's crazy that the dude is refusing to play within the offense. He will get a ride awakening on another team when there is no spacing and he can't iso.

Sent from my motorola razr 2025 using Tapatalk

I actually think he'll play well after a trade. He'll have a chip on his shoulders to prove kerr wrong. Then he'll sign a big extension, then revert back to the jk we all know too well.

[northoakland510]

It is troubling that JK isn’t playing well with Spencer. Out of Pat’s ten highest minute 2 man combos, JK is the worst.

You’d hope that a simpler offense would be easier for Kuminga, but I guess not.

It's crazy that the dude is refusing to play within the offense. He will get a ride awakening on another team when there is no spacing and he can't iso.

Sent from my motorola razr 2025 using Tapatalk

I actually think he'll play well after a trade. He'll have a chip on his shoulders to prove kerr wrong. Then he'll sign a big extension, then revert back to the jk we all know too well.

Yea I don't know. Look at Poole he is better offensively and Washington is happy they traded him and now New Orleans got young guys they would rather play.

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[Twinkie defense]

What's the relative value of Kevin Huerter? Could the Warriors get Huerter and a future, protected first round pick for Kuminga?

[DAWill1128]

If this team had run with the 2nd timeline of Poole, Kuminga, and Wiseman it would've been eerily reminiscent of the Ellis, Maggette, Randolph years before Jerry West arrived.