Draymond Green discussion...and "californiadude" blackmail.

[californiadude]

I'm with onus.

There is literally no stretch 4 that's is available to us that can replace what what Dray can do on D. Allow us to switch every screen.

On offense he knows his role is high post passer. Screen and 3 and crash the boards. The chemistry right now is insane on both sides of the ball.

With that being said the only person, if for some stupid reason we make a trade, would be lee. Who we don't know how he will affect chemistry.

Even iggy (who may be unhappy yadada) is extremely important for our defense. At the end of the day he is still our best perimeter defender and for me it's by a landslide.

Now HB, who I admitt has been playing great but im still not sold on, has many players that we can upgrade/ replace with. But unless it's an absolute upgrade. No way I would package him to go either.

The reason I think Iggy is the guy to trade is because he's owed quite a bit of money long term and Livingston offers pretty much the same production at a much cheaper price. Barnes and Green can fill the minutes at SF with Lee taking up some of Draymonds minutes at the 4. Harrison has actually been a suprisingly capable defender, while he's not iggy level but he's done well enough that the dropoff won't be that big in the grand scheme of things. In a perfect world we could turn iggy and a first into a major contributer. Understand that Spieghts has played out of his mind but we need to slow that train down....It's a pseudo contract year for him and I think that does effect your play style like it or not. I'm frankly not willing to give lee away for peanuts just because speights has had 1 good year. Lee is a nightly double double threat and frankly I don't want to be counting on Speights come playoff time. If we can trade lee for value than yeah I'd deal him but most people on this forum seem to think that it's a nutty idea for lee to be worth something.

Edit: Just wanted to add...There's no way I make any trade unless we're getting a legit asset back. That's my point with Green while I most likely wouldn't want to mess woth the chemistry right now...his value is higher than it might every be. And at the very least that's food for thought.

[DynastySS]

No?

[whocurrz]

No, the only way you trade Green is for a top 3 option who's an upgrade on Lee. Dray will get paid and this offseason we'll see if Lacob and co can put their money where their mouth is. He's a very good defender who can guard 2-4 and some PGs and Cs. On offense and defense he does things that don't show up on the stat sheet like his double teams and switches on the pick and roll on defense, solid ball handling and passing on offense as well as shooting well from three. He may not shoot 40% all year but 35% or above he is still a great asset and pretty much an ideal 4 in today's NBA.

I think if they can get cap space though the Piston's will try to do whatever to get him. He's a fan favorite, a stretch 4 like SVG likes, and since with the man love JVG has for Draymond I'm sure his brother Stan will also be interested.

If we were to lose him a guy who looks intriguing in a similar type role is KJ McDaniels. Shooting good percentage from three, rebounds blocks and steals well and a great athlete. Don't think he plays a lot of PF but his skills look like he could be a Shawn Marion-esque player with the right coaching and development

[Onus]

Edit: Just wanted to add...There's no way I make any trade unless we're getting a legit asset back. That's my point with Green while I most likely wouldn't want to mess woth the chemistry right now...his value is higher than it might every be. And at the very least that's food for thought.

The value of a stretch 4 who actually plays good to elite defense is immense. There's literally no other 4 like him, unless you want to include Lebron or Durant, though they would never want to take on the challenge of being a 4 day in and day out throughout the NBA season.

[turk3d]

Here's a team which might be willing to deal:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/charl ... ht-fix-it/

Wonder if there's anything that might be of interest. Supposedly they're in areas where we have the most depth. The only two guys I'd consider trading at this point are Lee and possibly Iggy. Not trading Dray and probably not Barnes either.

[whocurrz]

Edit: Just wanted to add...There's no way I make any trade unless we're getting a legit asset back. That's my point with Green while I most likely wouldn't want to mess woth the chemistry right now...his value is higher than it might every be. And at the very least that's food for thought.

The value of a stretch 4 who actually plays good to elite defense is immense. There's literally no other 4 like him, unless you want to include Lebron or Durant, though they would never want to take on the challenge of being a 4 day in and day out throughout the NBA season.

The most similar player I can think of is probably a prime Shawn Marion but not as good at offense. But currently in the league there is no other player like that and for teams that want to spread it out, push the pace and maintain defensive integrity that's a very valuable player. Especially with how the rules are encouraging teams to play right now

[californiadude]

Edit: Just wanted to add...There's no way I make any trade unless we're getting a legit asset back. That's my point with Green while I most likely wouldn't want to mess woth the chemistry right now...his value is higher than it might every be. And at the very least that's food for thought.

The value of a stretch 4 who actually plays good to elite defense is immense. There's literally no other 4 like him, unless you want to include Lebron or Durant, though they would never want to take on the challenge of being a 4 day in and day out throughout the NBA season.

That's a good point and really you're right that sort of player is very valuable. But I don't know if Green is their yet.
What makes a stretch 4 so valuable is that he literally forces the defense to bend toward hiss side of the floor...Opening up wide open driving lanes and corner 3's. Green doesn't inspire that kind of fear. He's a serviceable three point shooter not Ryan Anderson. Can he hit the open three consistently? Yes but I don't think you can call him a true "stretch 4". You guys have convinced me that it's probably not a good Idea to entertain offers for Draymond mainly because losing his defensive ability would be pretty hard. But the concerns about his knees nor his contract aren't going away.

[californiadude]

Here's a team which might be willing to deal:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/charl ... ht-fix-it/

Wonder if there's anything that might be of interest. Supposedly their in areas where we have the most depth. The only two guys I'd consider trading at this point are Lee and possibly Iggy. Not trading Dray and probably not Barnes either.

Other than Byumbo their isn't anyone that I'd want on their roster. Lance is intriguing but he's too toxic to take a chance on with the way we're playing. Am I forgetting someone? I like Hairston but I don't really see charlotte giving up the one shooter they have.

[turk3d]

Knees seem fine to me. Don't believe he's missed a game yet due to injury since he's been here. And although he may not be the "best" stretch 4 around, he might be the best defensive so combined he's not too far behind any imo. And I will say this to you dude, it looks like you were right about Butler, he's a very good player which I didn't realize. Probably too late for him now, I'm sure Bulls realize what they have. So props to you for calling that one, this one, not so good imo. It would be crazy to move Dray at this point.

[Onus]

Edit: Just wanted to add...There's no way I make any trade unless we're getting a legit asset back. That's my point with Green while I most likely wouldn't want to mess woth the chemistry right now...his value is higher than it might every be. And at the very least that's food for thought.

The value of a stretch 4 who actually plays good to elite defense is immense. There's literally no other 4 like him, unless you want to include Lebron or Durant, though they would never want to take on the challenge of being a 4 day in and day out throughout the NBA season.

That's a good point and really you're right that sort of player is very valuable. But I don't know if Green is their yet.
What makes a stretch 4 so valuable is that he literally forces the defense to bend toward hiss side of the floor...Opening up wide open driving lanes and corner 3's. Green doesn't inspire that kind of fear. He's a serviceable three point shooter not Ryan Anderson. Can he hit the open three consistently? Yes but I don't think you can call him a true "stretch 4". You guys have convinced me that it's probably not a good Idea to entertain offers for Draymond mainly because losing his defensive ability would be pretty hard. But the concerns about his knees nor his contract aren't going away.

You're limiting stretch 4 to mean elite stretch 4 who's a legit offensive option, such as Ryno, Dirk, Love, those are probably the only legit "stretch 4s" under your definition. Draymond maybe a notch below their "strechiness" but he takes 4.5 3s a game at 37.5%, which is 5.1 attempts per 36. That's pretty darn stretchy. For comparison Ryan Anderson takes 6.9 attempts at 35% or 8.9 attempts per 36, he's most likely the highest volume guy for "stretch 4s".

[oaktownwarriors87]

You're limiting stretch 4 to mean elite stretch 4 who's a legit offensive option, such as Ryno, Dirk, Love, those are probably the only legit "stretch 4s" under your definition. Draymond maybe a notch below their "strechiness" but he takes 4.5 3s a game at 37.5%, which is 5.1 attempts per 36. That's pretty darn stretchy. For comparison Ryan Anderson takes 6.9 attempts at 35% or 8.9 attempts per 36, he's most likely the highest volume guy for "stretch 4s".

Over the last 5 seasons Anderson takes 8.0 3's and shoots 39% per 36 minutes. It's pretty unfair to compare the two when one is hot and the other is not.

Also, don't look at the box score, look at the heat map.

Green


Anderson

[Onus]

Ryan anderson is probably at the top of the elite stretch 4 category.

[Powe-Fessional]

Celtics fan here who just watched Sunday's game against Detroit. Please do not trade Green or anyone on your roster, unless a major injury happens. You guys are so much fun to watch. It's a real treat.

I posted this on our "Around the NBA" thread. Wanted to see what you guys think. Am I off-base at all here?

"The Warriors are going to be a problem for a lot of people. Everyone's been talking about how impressive they are, so I FINALLY got my first look at them against Detroit on Sunday. Wow. Have them play the Spurs right now for the West title. It would be incredible to watch.

I think the most important part of the Warriors is personnel. They can play almost any style, any line-up, and be successful doing it. They can go three guards with Steph-Blur-Klay-Livingston, they can go wing-heavy with Klay-Iggy-Green-Barnes, they can go big with Bogut-Lee-Speights - what a luxury. The only problem they really face is when Barnes plays the 4. Easily overpowered by 4's in the NBA, but he gives them the speed, the ball movement, and floor-spacing on offense that Kerr wants so it's a wash. Warriors want to play up-tempo. Barnes allows them to do that.

And their offense is a thing of beauty. Players don't stop moving, the ball never stops moving, everyone knows where to cut, when to cut, how to cut, and they get a lot of open shots because of it. Defenses know you can't give guys like Klay and Steph any space, so the end result is a lot of good looks for Barnes (50% FG/40% 3FG), Green (46% F/38% 3FG), and even Mo Speights (57% FG).

I love this team (forgot to mention they're 8th in points allowed). They play basketball the way it's supposed to be played. As long as Bogut is healthy they're on the short list of teams that can win it all and stay on top for a while. You really have to 'muddy' the game up to really beat them. I think the only team that could do that for a 7-game series is Memphis, which would also be amazing to watch."

[turk3d]

If Dray can stay close to what he's doing when adding in defense (which none of the "top" guys mentioned play with the exception of Dirk maybe) I'd say that it's a wash. I'll take the D along with the less proficient 3s over a somewhat better 3 pt % shooting minimal D guy. And I don't care where the 3s get shot from (I don't care if they're all 40 footers) 3 pts is 3 pts.

3pt %s F/C
https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bypo ... ualified=1

Although Dray's not listed, he's @ 37.5% currently which fares pretty well. He also rebounds pretty well, averaging over 7 a game. much better than Anderson.

[turk3d]

Celtics fan here who just watched Sunday's game against Detroit. Please do not trade Green or anyone on your roster, unless a major injury happens. You guys are so much fun to watch. It's a real treat.

I posted this on our "Around the NBA" thread. Wanted to see what you guys think. Am I off-base at all here?

"The Warriors are going to be a problem for a lot of people. Everyone's been talking about how impressive they are, so I FINALLY got my first look at them against Detroit on Sunday. Wow. Have them play the Spurs right now for the West title. It would be incredible to watch.

I think the most important part of the Warriors is personnel. They can play almost any style, any line-up, and be successful doing it. They can go three guards with Steph-Blur-Klay-Livingston, they can go wing-heavy with Klay-Iggy-Green-Barnes, they can go big with Bogut-Lee-Speights - what a luxury. The only problem they really face is when Barnes plays the 4. Easily overpowered by 4's in the NBA, but he gives them the speed, the ball movement, and floor-spacing on offense that Kerr wants so it's a wash. Warriors want to play up-tempo. Barnes allows them to do that.

And their offense is a thing of beauty. Players don't stop moving, the ball never stops moving, everyone knows where to cut, when to cut, how to cut, and they get a lot of open shots because of it. Defenses know you can't give guys like Klay and Steph any space, so the end result is a lot of good looks for Barnes (50% FG/40% 3FG), Green (46% F/38% 3FG), and even Mo Speights (57% FG).

I love this team (forgot to mention they're 8th in points allowed). They play basketball the way it's supposed to be played. As long as Bogut is healthy they're on the short list of teams that can win it all and stay on top for a while. You really have to 'muddy' the game up to really beat them. I think the only team that could do that for a 7-game series is Memphis, which would also be amazing to watch."

Very good assessment. Appreciate the positive feedback. I think that health is the key for us (probably for everyone else too). Seems to be the biggest factor these days when it comes to realization of your full potential.

[azwfan]

We don't need elite anything. The only need i can see is a 3&D backup SG (since Rush hasn't filled the bill yet). Maybe a 3rd PG so we can rest Livingston in blowouts? A 4th center so we don't have to watch Kuzmic play in garbage time? We really don't need a lot.

[Onus]

Celtics fan here who just watched Sunday's game against Detroit. Please do not trade Green or anyone on your roster, unless a major injury happens. You guys are so much fun to watch. It's a real treat.

I posted this on our "Around the NBA" thread. Wanted to see what you guys think. Am I off-base at all here?

"The Warriors are going to be a problem for a lot of people. Everyone's been talking about how impressive they are, so I FINALLY got my first look at them against Detroit on Sunday. Wow. Have them play the Spurs right now for the West title. It would be incredible to watch.

I think the most important part of the Warriors is personnel. They can play almost any style, any line-up, and be successful doing it. They can go three guards with Steph-Blur-Klay-Livingston, they can go wing-heavy with Klay-Iggy-Green-Barnes, they can go big with Bogut-Lee-Speights - what a luxury. The only problem they really face is when Barnes plays the 4. Easily overpowered by 4's in the NBA, but he gives them the speed, the ball movement, and floor-spacing on offense that Kerr wants so it's a wash. Warriors want to play up-tempo. Barnes allows them to do that.

And their offense is a thing of beauty. Players don't stop moving, the ball never stops moving, everyone knows where to cut, when to cut, how to cut, and they get a lot of open shots because of it. Defenses know you can't give guys like Klay and Steph any space, so the end result is a lot of good looks for Barnes (50% FG/40% 3FG), Green (46% F/38% 3FG), and even Mo Speights (57% FG).

I love this team (forgot to mention they're 8th in points allowed). They play basketball the way it's supposed to be played. As long as Bogut is healthy they're on the short list of teams that can win it all and stay on top for a while. You really have to 'muddy' the game up to really beat them. I think the only team that could do that for a 7-game series is Memphis, which would also be amazing to watch."

Thanks for the kind words

Too bad you've only caught our Sunday game against Detroit. I must be getting spoiled because I didn't even think we played well to be honest. We can usually pull out double digit victories without playing well but our last two victories have been kind of ugly compared to the rest of the win streak. We're definitely capable of playing better but an early start and an end of a 5 game road trip can do that.

[cj03]

If Dray can stay close to what he's doing when adding in defense (which none of the "top" guys mentioned play with the exception of Dirk maybe) I'd say that it's a wash. I'll take the D along with the less proficient 3s over a somewhat better 3 pt % shooting minimal D guy. And I don't care where the 3s get shot from (I don't care if they're all 40 footers) 3 pts is 3 pts.

3pt %s F/C
https://sports.yahoo.com/nba/stats/bypo ... ualified=1

Although Dray's not listed, he's @ 37.5% currently which fares pretty well. He also rebounds pretty well, averaging over 7 a game. much better than Anderson.

We finally agree turk. His defense is invaluable to this team. And he's been stretchy enough. As long as he keeps it up, he's pretty untouchable in terms of trades at this point.

[Onus]

We don't need elite anything. The only need i can see is a 3&D backup SG (since Rush hasn't filled the bill yet). Maybe a 3rd PG so we can rest Livingston in blowouts? A 4th center so we don't have to watch Kuzmic play in garbage time? We really don't need a lot.

Would love to get Ray Allen to play that role, though Barbosa's amusing leak outs would be missed. Nedo was supposed to play that 3rd pg role but he didn't want it. It's not really Kuzmic as much as it is playing Kuzmic and Ezeli together.

[DaHef]

I don't want to make any trade, I just don't think Mo can keep this up... he is all time high value right now. Last season I was ready for him to be cut.

Mo has always shot well from the elbow, he just slipped into a 1 dimension player. Finally a coaching staff to remind him power players with shooting touch can also play down low. He won't always sizzle like this but maybe he won't regress back to last years level. I hope they continue to milk his inexpensive contract.