is Klay done?

[e83pw2oa9hl5f]

I wonder how the contract talks are going. If Klay thinks he is worth big money, W's are definitely better off trading him now and getting something back correct? Draft capital, expiring's, youth, whatever... Lot of placating to ego's of fading stars. Hard getting older aye.

Not traded for the same centers getting repeated on this board ad naseum by same poster whom I thought was a troll for years.

[ILOVEIT]

BENCH TIME for Klay. If Iggy could come off the bench near his prime . . .

Klay should be ASKING to come off the bench.

[DAWill1128]

I remember watching yesterday's game thinking in the first half Klay is guarding PG and Kawhi really well. He primarily guarded PG but guarded Kawhi when PG was out. I come here after the game to see all these people complaining that Klays defense is why we lost. So I looked at it closer to see if that was the case and here's what I came up with.

Thompsons Defense
1st Quarter
0-2

2nd Quarter
1-3 - 2 points

Clippers 48 points at the half - Thompsons man scored 2 points.

3rd Quarter
2-6 - 5 points
3-3 free throws

4th Quarter
2-4 - 5 points
1-1 free throws

Clippers finished with 113 points - Thompsons man scored 16 points on 5/15 for 33% FG and 4/4 from FT's.

Clippers
113 points
44/90 FG 48.9%

To say we lost because Klays defense just wouldn't be accurate. The Clippers had an easier time scoring on everyone not Klay at 52% FG.

[wco81]

Klay gave up the winning shot.

But he couldn't foul PG, all he could do is make him take a difficult shot and contest.

On the roster, Wiggins, Dray and GP2 may have defended better, at least get higher on the shot release without fouling. GP2 may have had a better chance to disrupt PG's dribble leading to the step back.

At least he kept PG in front of him, prevented him from getting by him for a layup attempt.

[jozef]

I watched the game and Klay played well on both ends of the floor. 29 teams would take him in a heartbeat.

[KevinMcreynolds]

if we could get something of value for him that would be amazing

Manleavy, do work son

[floppymoose]

To say we lost because Klays defense just wouldn't be accurate. The Clippers had an easier time scoring on everyone not Klay at 52% FG.

Defense doesn't really work that way. If you look jsut at what the FG% is for the person shooting when Klay is closest, that is only a small part of the puzzle.

Here is the big picture:

Effective FG% Allowed - Klay ON Court: 54.8%
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay OFF Court: 49.9%

His overall defense is mind-blowingly bad. Find another guy who plays more than 24 mins a game who hurts their teams defense that much. It's not easy.

[jozef]

To say we lost because Klays defense just wouldn't be accurate. The Clippers had an easier time scoring on everyone not Klay at 52% FG.

Defense doesn't really work that way. If you look jsut at what the FG% is for the person shooting when Klay is closest, that is only a small part of the puzzle.
Here is the big picture:
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay ON Court: 54.8%
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay OFF Court: 49.9%
His overall defense is mind-blowingly bad. Find another guy who plays more than 24 mins a game who hurts their teams defense that much. It's not easy.

Defense doesn't really work that way. If say Saric gets beaten on drives then the other players on the floor has nothing to do with it. If Steve decides to play midget lineup then it is not their fault to get outsized.
Klay plays good man-to-man defense, comparable with most NBA players. Bring a video evidence to prove otherwise.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Fountain of youth championship would be fun.

NBA fans did not believe in the Warriors in 2015 or 2022. The only believed in the Warriors when we had KD. Winning without KD was more fun than winning with KD.

I can’t count Klay out. He tended to play better 2nd half season than 1st half season his whole career.

Klay and Dray getting old was to be expected. Curry not getting old is a surprise.

I don’t know what is wrong with Wiggins.

[DAWill1128]

To say we lost because Klays defense just wouldn't be accurate. The Clippers had an easier time scoring on everyone not Klay at 52% FG.

Defense doesn't really work that way. If you look jsut at what the FG% is for the person shooting when Klay is closest, that is only a small part of the puzzle.

Here is the big picture:

Effective FG% Allowed - Klay ON Court: 54.8%
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay OFF Court: 49.9%

His overall defense is mind-blowingly bad. Find another guy who plays more than 24 mins a game who hurts their teams defense that much. It's not easy.

I did find a man who hurts his teams defense that much, even more. His name is Draymond Jamal Green.

Effective FG% Allowed - Dray ON Court: 56.9%
Effective FG% Allowed - Dray OFF Court: 51.2%

On and off splits don't take into account matchups. People are complaining that Klay starts and ends games, as in he's up against the opponents best players in the real push and shove moments of a game. It's not absurd to think lineups with PG and Kawhi aren't shooting better than lineups with Kobe Brown and Bones Hyland.

For reference on and off splits would indicate Draymond Green is our worst defender. It would indicate Dario Saric is our best defender. It would indicate Dario is better on defense than Kevon. CP3 and Kuminga score out more favorably than Wiggins on defense.

Draymond Green
Effective FG% Allowed
On 56.9% vs Off 51.2%

Klay Thompson
Effective FG% Allowed
On 54.8% vs Off 49.9%

Andrew Wiggins
Effective FG% Allowed
On 54.5% vs Off 50.6%

Kevon Looney
Effective FG% Allowed
On 53.9% vs Off 51.7%

Dario Saric
Effective FG% Allowed
On 50.7% vs Off 54.4%

Jonathan Kuminga
Effective FG% Allowed
On 52.2% vs Off 53.1%

Chris Paul
Effective FG% Allowed
On 50.5% vs Off 55.3%

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

We could trade Wiggins and draft picks for an off guard and let Klay finish his career defending small forwards since Klay no longer looks fast enough to defend off guards.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

To say we lost because Klays defense just wouldn't be accurate. The Clippers had an easier time scoring on everyone not Klay at 52% FG.

Defense doesn't really work that way. If you look jsut at what the FG% is for the person shooting when Klay is closest, that is only a small part of the puzzle.

Here is the big picture:

Effective FG% Allowed - Klay ON Court: 54.8%
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay OFF Court: 49.9%

His overall defense is mind-blowingly bad. Find another guy who plays more than 24 mins a game who hurts their teams defense that much. It's not easy.

I did find a man who hurts his teams defense that much, even more. His name is Draymond Jamal Green.

Effective FG% Allowed - Dray ON Court: 56.9%
Effective FG% Allowed - Dray OFF Court: 51.2%

On and off splits don't take into account matchups. People are complaining that Klay starts and ends games, as in he's up against the opponents best players in the real push and shove moments of a game. It's not absurd to think lineups with PG and Kawhi aren't shooting better than lineups with Kobe Brown and Bones Hyland.

For reference on and off splits would indicate Draymond Green is our worst defender. It would indicate Dario Saric is our best defender. It would indicate Dario is better on defense than Kevon. CP3 and Kuminga score out more favorably than Wiggins on defense.

Draymond Green
Effective FG% Allowed
On 56.9% vs Off 51.2%

Klay Thompson
Effective FG% Allowed
On 54.8% vs Off 49.9%

Andrew Wiggins
Effective FG% Allowed
On 54.5% vs Off 50.6%

Kevon Looney
Effective FG% Allowed
On 53.9% vs Off 51.7%

Dario Saric
Effective FG% Allowed
On 50.7% vs Off 54.4%

Jonathan Kuminga
Effective FG% Allowed
On 52.2% vs Off 53.1%

Chris Paul
Effective FG% Allowed
On 50.5% vs Off 55.3%

If starters guard starters and bench guards bench that could make starters defensive FG% look worse than it is compared to bench.

Looney is not a bad defender but the bench has better numbers. Wiggins is giving up higher FG% than bench.

How are Curry’s defensive numbers looking?

[CDM_Stats]

The only way you can use the numbers cited is by substitution...which is very limited. But when I routinely say metrics are mostly garbage, this is what I mean. They use very general numbers and are are so far zoomed out that you won't come close to an accurate answer.

Anyways, lets use the Moody/Klay comparsion.

Curry/Moody/Wiggins/Draymond/Looney allows a 39.1 eFG%, scores with a 46.0 eFG%
Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Draymond/Looney allows a 51.9 eFG%, scores with a 43.9 eFG%
Curry/Klay/Moody/Draymond/Looney allows a 44.4 eFG%, scores with a 31.3 eFG%

Now... these are highly volatile numbers because the minutes, w/exception of the middle lineup (our starting lineup), are very low. But it stands to reason to ask certain questions: why is the net difference w/Moody improving over both starting wings? Why does the net w/Moody & Wiggins go way higher than the others?

The thing is.. you guys are trying to answer the question with almost useless data. Accurate defensive analysis is done subjectively, not objectively. You have to closely watch, re-watch, see where the plays break down. In fact, DRtg is probably the most accurate objective metric there is for defense, and its still **** terrible. Although I've stopped as of end of November, tracking analysis (which uses far more data points and is combining detailed metrics w/ actual subjective analysis) was very clear about these players + Moody. Just like it was 2 years ago when people thought Wiggins was a pumpkin again because Dray left.

CrazyCanuck literally spelled all of it out.. impressively so because as far as I know, he didnt have Second Spectrum access and several people pitching in. He was spot on and people would do well to listen

[floppymoose]

To say we lost because Klays defense just wouldn't be accurate. The Clippers had an easier time scoring on everyone not Klay at 52% FG.

Defense doesn't really work that way. If you look jsut at what the FG% is for the person shooting when Klay is closest, that is only a small part of the puzzle.
Here is the big picture:
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay ON Court: 54.8%
Effective FG% Allowed - Klay OFF Court: 49.9%
His overall defense is mind-blowingly bad. Find another guy who plays more than 24 mins a game who hurts their teams defense that much. It's not easy.

If say Saric gets beaten on drives then the other players on the floor has nothing to do with it.

Effective FG% Allowed - Saric ON Court: 50.7%
Effective FG% Allowed - Saric OFF Court: 54.4%

[jozef]

Well and Saric plays as a backup against weaker competition. These stats have no weights on individual defensive performance.
Draymond Green eFG% allowed 56.9 ON court, 51.2 OFF court. That alone should make it clear.
I dare you to find scenes of his "mind-blowingly bad" defense.

[Crazy-Canuck]

The only way you can use the numbers cited is by substitution...which is very limited. But when I routinely say metrics are mostly garbage, this is what I mean. They use very general numbers and are are so far zoomed out that you won't come close to an accurate answer.

Anyways, lets use the Moody/Klay comparsion.

Curry/Moody/Wiggins/Draymond/Looney allows a 39.1 eFG%, scores with a 46.0 eFG%
Curry/Klay/Wiggins/Draymond/Looney allows a 51.9 eFG%, scores with a 43.9 eFG%
Curry/Klay/Moody/Draymond/Looney allows a 44.4 eFG%, scores with a 31.3 eFG%

Now... these are highly volatile numbers because the minutes, w/exception of the middle lineup (our starting lineup), are very low. But it stands to reason to ask certain questions: why is the net difference w/Moody improving over both starting wings? Why does the net w/Moody & Wiggins go way higher than the others?

The thing is.. you guys are trying to answer the question with almost useless data. Accurate defensive analysis is done subjectively, not objectively. You have to closely watch, re-watch, see where the plays break down. In fact, DRtg is probably the most accurate objective metric there is for defense, and its still **** terrible. Although I've stopped as of end of November, tracking analysis (which uses far more data points and is combining detailed metrics w/ actual subjective analysis) was very clear about these players + Moody. Just like it was 2 years ago when people thought Wiggins was a pumpkin again because Dray left.

CrazyCanuck literally spelled all of it out.. impressively so because as far as I know, he didnt have Second Spectrum access and several people pitching in. He was spot on and people would do well to listen

Just my eyes and league pass.

You can have 5 good on ball defenders, but I'd bet a 5 man unit on string would be the better defense.

I've started to pay more attention to off the ball stuff on defense during replays because during the game, our eyes focus entirely on the ball.

That's when you see the lack of help klay provides and that's where the breakdowns are happening with the starters. Not on klays on ball defense. Not on dray. Not on loon. And not on Wiggins.

[floppymoose]

Dray at least has a long track record of being a very good defender.

[GunnerWRX]

We talking about defense like Klay has been good offensively and without mind boggling TOs dribbling off his foot and dribbling into defenders then handing the ball over 2-3 times a game.

He needs to go to a basketball game to improve on his dribbling, but it’s 20 years too late.

So he should stick to what he does best nowadays and stop dribbling.

[Sandy333]

Some coaches have become good at manipulating +/- for a player by having different combination of players and substitution patterns. So sometimes eye test is the best. Why does nobody talk about yhe play of the scared Cow, steph curry play, critical turnovers in crunch time and heat check shots that are not falling.
League wide offence is so good these last two years that steph alone cannot make the difference anymore or Thompson and steph together either.
Unless we make drastic changes ( which is very difficult) we will be worse each year. But to solve a problem we need to recognise the problems, half the people here and probably the warriors management and coaching staff seem to looking at the elusive switch to turn the team into a winning one.

[watch1958]

Some coaches have become good at manipulating +/- for a player by having different combination of players and substitution patterns. So sometimes eye test is the best. Why does nobody talk about yhe play of the scared Cow, steph curry play, critical turnovers in crunch time and heat check shots that are not falling.
League wide offence is so good these last two years that steph alone cannot make the difference anymore or Thompson and steph together either.
Unless we make drastic changes ( which is very difficult) we will be worse each year. But to solve a problem we need to recognise the problems, half the people here and probably the warriors management and coaching staff seem to looking at the elusive switch to turn the team into a winning one.

Cool story. Thanks.