Harden trade Dilemma

[tarantism]

I am so tired about hearing about Harden's post defense. Its become a completely overrated part of his game. Its not that he's bad there, its that he's average and the other aspects of playing defense are so lazy with him that the post stuff stands out.

Sorry, just venting but I find it annoying.

Edit: he is very much still getting the favorable whistle too. Its almost like when he drives the ref predetermines whether to blow the whistle or not.

[Frozzy]

I wouldn't have had an issue with KD potentially winning a championship(As much as I dislike Kyrie) in Brooklyn but the Harden trade ruined that for me. I don't want to see Harden win a chip ever. Dare I say it? It's a way bigger slap to the face than the Lakers winning another bubble championship. Hope they fall apart from within.

[DAWill1128]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/clutchpoints.com/warriors-rumors-kevin-durant-warned-james-harden-against-playing-steve-kerr/amp/

[HiRez]

If KD is going around the league badmouthing Kerr to other players, that's not good for us. Pretty vague though.

[marthafokker]

I love me some drama. The fun part of season begins.

For me. LeBron is hit list number 1. So Go Nets!

[marthafokker]

If KD is going around the league badmouthing Kerr to other players, that's not good for us. Pretty vague though.

GSW got bigger problem in house than what KD tells people. Kerr is doing a fine job himself without KD.

[FNQ]

If KD is going around the league badmouthing Kerr to other players, that's not good for us. Pretty vague though.

Based on the players who are listening, who cares?

Kerr wanted the ISO superstar to shoot more.. what a bad guy

NBA players should be falling over themselves in the offseason to ask for their team to trade them to the W's.. and that team should be plenty excited, because if the W's do move Oubre for a 2 year deal like they should, we'd be able to offer Oubre's replacement, Looney, Wiseman, and at least 1 lottery 1st in a loaded draft. Most of the time when stars are traded, its for volume, like what happened with Harden. There's no safe value there for the Rockets. It could be a massive bust.

But we're (potentially offering) a high caliber big prospect in Wiseman and 1-2 lotto picks, along with expiring contracts? And the player gets to play with Steph/Klay/Dray? Yeah I'm not worried about KD's pissing and moaning about not being able to be THE guy, or having to work in a ball-sharing offense

[ahmetmekin]

If KD is going around the league badmouthing Kerr to other players, that's not good for us. Pretty vague though.

Based on the players who are listening, who cares?

Kerr wanted the ISO superstar to shoot more.. what a bad guy

NBA players should be falling over themselves in the offseason to ask for their team to trade them to the W's.. and that team should be plenty excited, because if the W's do move Oubre for a 2 year deal like they should, we'd be able to offer Oubre's replacement, Looney, Wiseman, and at least 1 lottery 1st in a loaded draft. Most of the time when stars are traded, its for volume, like what happened with Harden. There's no safe value there for the Rockets. It could be a massive bust.

But we're (potentially offering) a high caliber big prospect in Wiseman and 1-2 lotto picks, along with expiring contracts? And the player gets to play with Steph/Klay/Dray? Yeah I'm not worried about KD's pissing and moaning about not being able to be THE guy, or having to work in a ball-sharing offense

It matters. KD wanted less motion offense, not that he wanted to shoot less:
https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2019/9/11/20859334/nba-2019-kevin-durant-steve-kerr-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry-offense-pick-and-roll
So it makes sense that he warned Harden about that.

The players spend a lot of time to adjust Kerr's system. In addition, Kerr is surrounding Curry with ridiculous non-shooting cast this year. I haven't noticed any other coach with that type of attitude. If a role player destroys your superstar's minutes then you split their minutes. You do not spend your stars minutes so that the role player feels better.
It is a star oriented league and stars have a lot of power but in the Warriors' case, Coach-star power dynamics are not in line with other teams.
So I wonder why the hell any superstar would want to join this team.

[FNQ]

If KD is going around the league badmouthing Kerr to other players, that's not good for us. Pretty vague though.

Based on the players who are listening, who cares?

Kerr wanted the ISO superstar to shoot more.. what a bad guy

NBA players should be falling over themselves in the offseason to ask for their team to trade them to the W's.. and that team should be plenty excited, because if the W's do move Oubre for a 2 year deal like they should, we'd be able to offer Oubre's replacement, Looney, Wiseman, and at least 1 lottery 1st in a loaded draft. Most of the time when stars are traded, its for volume, like what happened with Harden. There's no safe value there for the Rockets. It could be a massive bust.

But we're (potentially offering) a high caliber big prospect in Wiseman and 1-2 lotto picks, along with expiring contracts? And the player gets to play with Steph/Klay/Dray? Yeah I'm not worried about KD's pissing and moaning about not being able to be THE guy, or having to work in a ball-sharing offense

It matters. KD wanted less motion offense, not that he wanted to shoot less:
https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2019/9/11/20859334/nba-2019-kevin-durant-steve-kerr-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry-offense-pick-and-roll
So it makes sense that he warned Harden about that.

The players spend a lot of time to adjust Kerr's system. In addition, Kerr is surrounding Curry with ridiculous non-shooting cast this year. I haven't noticed any other coach with that type of attitude. If a role player destroys your superstar's minutes then you split their minutes. You do not spend your stars minutes so that the role player feels better.
It is a star oriented league and stars have a lot of power but in the Warriors' case, Coach-star power dynamics are not in line with other teams.
So I wonder why the hell any superstar would want to join this team.

Superstars demand out so they can go somewhere they can win, not somewhere where they can be the man elsewhere. KD telling Harden that - not that it mattered really, he was traded and so will our guy - is the blind leading the blind, and thats fine with me.

Yall are really up in your feelings about Kerr not benching Oubre and making it some ridiculous idea that he's not competent.. guarantee he sees the same game we do, but his boss spent 80m to bring the guy here, we have no real incentive to coach each game like its the playoffs, and you guys instantly think Kerr's some kind of moron? He's putting Wiggins in position to succeed but nah, thats not enough. It's not some clever, 5D chess move you guys think it is.. of course Lee would be better than Oubre right now. But Oubre's an asset that we likely have to cash out this year, so it makes more sense to try and get him going than it does Lee, who's playing for the minimum next year and will not be playing with the starters next year anyways. Get a grip

[ahmetmekin]

Based on the players who are listening, who cares?

Kerr wanted the ISO superstar to shoot more.. what a bad guy

NBA players should be falling over themselves in the offseason to ask for their team to trade them to the W's.. and that team should be plenty excited, because if the W's do move Oubre for a 2 year deal like they should, we'd be able to offer Oubre's replacement, Looney, Wiseman, and at least 1 lottery 1st in a loaded draft. Most of the time when stars are traded, its for volume, like what happened with Harden. There's no safe value there for the Rockets. It could be a massive bust.

But we're (potentially offering) a high caliber big prospect in Wiseman and 1-2 lotto picks, along with expiring contracts? And the player gets to play with Steph/Klay/Dray? Yeah I'm not worried about KD's pissing and moaning about not being able to be THE guy, or having to work in a ball-sharing offense

It matters. KD wanted less motion offense, not that he wanted to shoot less:
https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2019/9/11/20859334/nba-2019-kevin-durant-steve-kerr-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry-offense-pick-and-roll
So it makes sense that he warned Harden about that.

The players spend a lot of time to adjust Kerr's system. In addition, Kerr is surrounding Curry with ridiculous non-shooting cast this year. I haven't noticed any other coach with that type of attitude. If a role player destroys your superstar's minutes then you split their minutes. You do not spend your stars minutes so that the role player feels better.
It is a star oriented league and stars have a lot of power but in the Warriors' case, Coach-star power dynamics are not in line with other teams.
So I wonder why the hell any superstar would want to join this team.

Superstars demand out so they can go somewhere they can win, not somewhere where they can be the man elsewhere. KD telling Harden that - not that it mattered really, he was traded and so will our guy - is the blind leading the blind, and thats fine with me.

Yall are really up in your feelings about Kerr not benching Oubre and making it some ridiculous idea that he's not competent.. guarantee he sees the same game we do, but his boss spent 80m to bring the guy here, we have no real incentive to coach each game like its the playoffs, and you guys instantly think Kerr's some kind of moron? He's putting Wiggins in position to succeed but nah, thats not enough. It's not some clever, 5D chess move you guys think it is.. of course Lee would be better than Oubre right now. But Oubre's an asset that we likely have to cash out this year, so it makes more sense to try and get him going than it does Lee, who's playing for the minimum next year and will not be playing with the starters next year anyways. Get a grip

Not necessarily moron but he is like a religious fanatic. He is in love with his philosophy.
For example another brillant idea by Kerr :

Read on Twitter

No I am not a fan of Kerr for many years. If a coach forces Lebron to play a significant portion of his minutes with Oubre then he is 110% fired after a couple of games. Kerr can do this 60 more games to Curry and nothing will happen to him.

[FNQ]

It matters. KD wanted less motion offense, not that he wanted to shoot less:
https://www.goldenstateofmind.com/2019/9/11/20859334/nba-2019-kevin-durant-steve-kerr-golden-state-warriors-stephen-curry-offense-pick-and-roll
So it makes sense that he warned Harden about that.

The players spend a lot of time to adjust Kerr's system. In addition, Kerr is surrounding Curry with ridiculous non-shooting cast this year. I haven't noticed any other coach with that type of attitude. If a role player destroys your superstar's minutes then you split their minutes. You do not spend your stars minutes so that the role player feels better.
It is a star oriented league and stars have a lot of power but in the Warriors' case, Coach-star power dynamics are not in line with other teams.
So I wonder why the hell any superstar would want to join this team.

Superstars demand out so they can go somewhere they can win, not somewhere where they can be the man elsewhere. KD telling Harden that - not that it mattered really, he was traded and so will our guy - is the blind leading the blind, and thats fine with me.

Yall are really up in your feelings about Kerr not benching Oubre and making it some ridiculous idea that he's not competent.. guarantee he sees the same game we do, but his boss spent 80m to bring the guy here, we have no real incentive to coach each game like its the playoffs, and you guys instantly think Kerr's some kind of moron? He's putting Wiggins in position to succeed but nah, thats not enough. It's not some clever, 5D chess move you guys think it is.. of course Lee would be better than Oubre right now. But Oubre's an asset that we likely have to cash out this year, so it makes more sense to try and get him going than it does Lee, who's playing for the minimum next year and will not be playing with the starters next year anyways. Get a grip

Not necessarily moron but he is like a religious fanatic. He is in love with his philosophy.
For example another brillant idea by Kerr :

Read on Twitter

No I am not a fan of Kerr for many years. If a coach forces Lebron to play a significant portion of his minutes with Oubre then he is 110% fired after a couple of games. Kerr can do this 60 more games to Curry and nothing will happen to him.

Playing Steph off ball is bad? Steph was elite off-ball in years past.. they're doing it now so he isn't hit with 2 defenders the second he crosses half court. The Nuggets game is the perfect example of when a team doesn't do that - Steph goes off.

And BTW with LeBron, you dont have a down year. He's probably the GOAT and has led crappy teams to success. Curry is not on his level. Kerr is coaching this season with next season in mind, and has shown an affinity for putting players in the best situation for them. This is a super, super weird criticism of him TBH. Lee shouldnt be played with the starters because he never will be beyond this season. Ditto Mulder. And in the meantime, he's putting focus on Draymond, Wiggins, and Wiseman to step up offensively while we try and make Oubre look like a passable NBA asset. Are people thinking that he's going to go with a poor-shooting lineup by choice when Klay returns?

I honestly thought most of these critiques were ironic and just having time to piss into the wind.. but if people are serious about Kerr not knowing how to coach, yall have lost sight of the big picture, reality, or both

[Ilovethebay]

Superstars demand out so they can go somewhere they can win, not somewhere where they can be the man elsewhere. KD telling Harden that - not that it mattered really, he was traded and so will our guy - is the blind leading the blind, and thats fine with me.

Yall are really up in your feelings about Kerr not benching Oubre and making it some ridiculous idea that he's not competent.. guarantee he sees the same game we do, but his boss spent 80m to bring the guy here, we have no real incentive to coach each game like its the playoffs, and you guys instantly think Kerr's some kind of moron? He's putting Wiggins in position to succeed but nah, thats not enough. It's not some clever, 5D chess move you guys think it is.. of course Lee would be better than Oubre right now. But Oubre's an asset that we likely have to cash out this year, so it makes more sense to try and get him going than it does Lee, who's playing for the minimum next year and will not be playing with the starters next year anyways. Get a grip

Not necessarily moron but he is like a religious fanatic. He is in love with his philosophy.
For example another brillant idea by Kerr :

Read on Twitter

No I am not a fan of Kerr for many years. If a coach forces Lebron to play a significant portion of his minutes with Oubre then he is 110% fired after a couple of games. Kerr can do this 60 more games to Curry and nothing will happen to him.

Playing Steph off ball is bad? Steph was elite off-ball in years past.. they're doing it now so he isn't hit with 2 defenders the second he crosses half court. The Nuggets game is the perfect example of when a team doesn't do that - Steph goes off.

And BTW with LeBron, you dont have a down year. He's probably the GOAT and has led crappy teams to success. Curry is not on his level. Kerr is coaching this season with next season in mind, and has shown an affinity for putting players in the best situation for them. This is a super, super weird criticism of him TBH. Lee shouldnt be played with the starters because he never will be beyond this season. Ditto Mulder. And in the meantime, he's putting focus on Draymond, Wiggins, and Wiseman to step up offensively while we try and make Oubre look like a passable NBA asset. Are people thinking that he's going to go with a poor-shooting lineup by choice when Klay returns?

I honestly thought most of these critiques were ironic and just having time to piss into the wind.. but if people are serious about Kerr not knowing how to coach, yall have lost sight of the big picture, reality, or both

I don’t follow. MVP Steph existed mostly because no one could find him better than Dray. And more importantly with Klay, you couldn’t play a gimmick defense. The fact that Lee or Mulder haven’t been given a shot to start in front of Oubre is maddening. Putting Steph with another shooter has always been the recipe to make this system go imo.

[ahmetmekin]

Superstars demand out so they can go somewhere they can win, not somewhere where they can be the man elsewhere. KD telling Harden that - not that it mattered really, he was traded and so will our guy - is the blind leading the blind, and thats fine with me.

Yall are really up in your feelings about Kerr not benching Oubre and making it some ridiculous idea that he's not competent.. guarantee he sees the same game we do, but his boss spent 80m to bring the guy here, we have no real incentive to coach each game like its the playoffs, and you guys instantly think Kerr's some kind of moron? He's putting Wiggins in position to succeed but nah, thats not enough. It's not some clever, 5D chess move you guys think it is.. of course Lee would be better than Oubre right now. But Oubre's an asset that we likely have to cash out this year, so it makes more sense to try and get him going than it does Lee, who's playing for the minimum next year and will not be playing with the starters next year anyways. Get a grip

Not necessarily moron but he is like a religious fanatic. He is in love with his philosophy.
For example another brillant idea by Kerr :

Read on Twitter

No I am not a fan of Kerr for many years. If a coach forces Lebron to play a significant portion of his minutes with Oubre then he is 110% fired after a couple of games. Kerr can do this 60 more games to Curry and nothing will happen to him.

Playing Steph off ball is bad? Steph was elite off-ball in years past.. they're doing it now so he isn't hit with 2 defenders the second he crosses half court. The Nuggets game is the perfect example of when a team doesn't do that - Steph goes off.

And BTW with LeBron, you dont have a down year. He's probably the GOAT and has led crappy teams to success. Curry is not on his level. Kerr is coaching this season with next season in mind, and has shown an affinity for putting players in the best situation for them. This is a super, super weird criticism of him TBH. Lee shouldnt be played with the starters because he never will be beyond this season. Ditto Mulder. And in the meantime, he's putting focus on Draymond, Wiggins, and Wiseman to step up offensively while we try and make Oubre look like a passable NBA asset. Are people thinking that he's going to go with a poor-shooting lineup by choice when Klay returns?

I honestly thought most of these critiques were ironic and just having time to piss into the wind.. but if people are serious about Kerr not knowing how to coach, yall have lost sight of the big picture, reality, or both

Playing Steph off-ball is bad if it leads a Livingston post up. It is not bad if you play him of ball for an open Klay three.

My Lebron comparison was about how he is treated. There is no way you can put a lineup around him so that your role player looks better at the expense of Lebron's performance. This is more of a Curry issue. Most superstars would not accept such an approach.

[FNQ]

I don’t follow. MVP Steph existed mostly because no one could find him better than Dray. And more importantly with Klay, you couldn’t play a gimmick defense. The fact that Lee or Mulder haven’t been given a shot to start in front of Oubre is maddening. Putting Steph with another shooter has always been the recipe to make this system go imo.

Because this year doesn't matter... whats not to follow? We're not winning this year. What we're doing is trying to maximize our return for Oubre (who is super unlikely to end the year on the team) and giving the non-Steph important pieces (Dray, Wiseman, Wiggins) a chance to grow by giving them offensive opportunities they wouldn't have if we were full strength. Because again.. who cares if we win a handful more games this year? Growth is the name of the game, and 2021-22 is what our actual target is. You guys are upset that Kerr isn't coaching like this is the playoffs, that he's doing something that benefits us more next year, when we will be trying to win again?

[FNQ]

Playing Steph off-ball is bad if it leads a Livingston post up. It is not bad if you play him of ball for an open Klay three.

My Lebron comparison was about how he is treated. There is no way you can put a lineup around him so that your role player looks better at the expense of Lebron's performance. This is more of a Curry issue. Most superstars would not accept such an approach.

Livingston was actually one of the best PPP at postup while he was here... so yeah, I like the idea.

The rest.. you are correct. Most superstars wouldn't, but we have a truly unique, unselfish, and intelligent superstar who does allow us to do things like this. Had we one of those rockheads like Harden or KD as the main guy, they'd already be demanding out. And I love that we take advantage of the fact that Steph understands the big picture and is a 100% team player. Its a huge advantage in situations like this year

But if we don't take advantage of it, then why does it even matter? If we treat him like he were Harden and cater to his personal stats and goals, then you rob us of the advantage of having a truly selfless superstar like Curry

[Ilovethebay]

I don’t follow. MVP Steph existed mostly because no one could find him better than Dray. And more importantly with Klay, you couldn’t play a gimmick defense. The fact that Lee or Mulder haven’t been given a shot to start in front of Oubre is maddening. Putting Steph with another shooter has always been the recipe to make this system go imo.

Because this year doesn't matter... whats not to follow? We're not winning this year. What we're doing is trying to maximize our return for Oubre (who is super unlikely to end the year on the team) and giving the non-Steph important pieces (Dray, Wiseman, Wiggins) a chance to grow by giving them offensive opportunities they wouldn't have if we were full strength. Because again.. who cares if we win a handful more games this year? Growth is the name of the game, and 2021-22 is what our actual target is. You guys are upset that Kerr isn't coaching like this is the playoffs, that he's doing something that benefits us more next year, when we will be trying to win again?

Fair response. My issue with that is if you cant get those guys experience while winning it isn’t worth it. Playoff experience trumps whatever value you think we can get by increasing Oubre’s worth. I can’t see us getting anything for Oubre anyway besides a possible trade exception. I’m not a Kerr hater. I’m glad he’s the coach. But watching Steph getting triple teamed isn’t good for Steph or the team imo.

[ahmetmekin]

Playing Steph off-ball is bad if it leads a Livingston post up. It is not bad if you play him of ball for an open Klay three.

My Lebron comparison was about how he is treated. There is no way you can put a lineup around him so that your role player looks better at the expense of Lebron's performance. This is more of a Curry issue. Most superstars would not accept such an approach.

Livingston was actually one of the best PPP at postup while he was here... so yeah, I like the idea.

The rest.. you are correct. Most superstars wouldn't, but we have a truly unique, unselfish, and intelligent superstar who does allow us to do things like this. Had we one of those rockheads like Harden or KD as the main guy, they'd already be demanding out. And I love that we take advantage of the fact that Steph understands the big picture and is a 100% team player. Its a huge advantage in situations like this year

But if we don't take advantage of it, then why does it even matter? If we treat him like he were Harden and cater to his personal stats and goals, then you rob us of the advantage of having a truly selfless superstar like Curry

Quote was from 2019, it was a washed up Livingston. So, no I do not like the idea.
If you play Lee in the starting lineup and somehow he manages to become a consistent contributor then I am pretty sure this would contribute more to next year's team then adding marginal value to Oubre's trade value.
There are levels to taking advantage of the situation. Just because he is a team first guy, it does not mean that you play him with terrible lineups. The lineups do not just help improve his stats but they are actively hurting his performance. It is also not a good look for any other star who may want to join.

[Ilovethebay]

I don’t follow. MVP Steph existed mostly because no one could find him better than Dray. And more importantly with Klay, you couldn’t play a gimmick defense. The fact that Lee or Mulder haven’t been given a shot to start in front of Oubre is maddening. Putting Steph with another shooter has always been the recipe to make this system go imo.

Because this year doesn't matter... whats not to follow? We're not winning this year. What we're doing is trying to maximize our return for Oubre (who is super unlikely to end the year on the team) and giving the non-Steph important pieces (Dray, Wiseman, Wiggins) a chance to grow by giving them offensive opportunities they wouldn't have if we were full strength. Because again.. who cares if we win a handful more games this year? Growth is the name of the game, and 2021-22 is what our actual target is. You guys are upset that Kerr isn't coaching like this is the playoffs, that he's doing something that benefits us more next year, when we will be trying to win again?

Per 36 minutes, with Oubre on the floor, Curry averages 26.5 points on 59.4 true shooting percentage. That’s pretty good, but the issue is that the Warriors are a terrible -7.2 in those minutes.
Per 36 minutes, with Damion Lee on the floor, Curry averages 37.0 points on 64.9 true shooting percentage. In those minutes, the Warriors are a world-beating +11.4. Quoted from the Athletic

[FNQ]

Quote was from 2019, it was a washed up Livingston. So, no I do not like the idea.
If you play Lee in the starting lineup and somehow he manages to become a consistent contributor then I am pretty sure this would contribute more to next year's team then adding marginal value to Oubre's trade value.

And force Wiggins to take a larger role and get used to shooting in our system, force Draymond to shoot/create more, force Wiseman to take more shots..

There are levels to taking advantage of the situation. Just because he is a team first guy, it does not mean that you play him with terrible lineups. The lineups do not just help improve his stats but they are actively hurting his performance. It is also not a good look for any other star who may want to join.

The whole thing is that he, unlike selfish stars, doesnt care about his individual performance.

Its not a good look that the unquestioned leader here is unselfish and is willing to put his teammates first? How does that work? Again, if it drives away people who absolutely need to be the #1 and get their numbers.. and I can't stress this enough.. GOOD

[FNQ]

I don’t follow. MVP Steph existed mostly because no one could find him better than Dray. And more importantly with Klay, you couldn’t play a gimmick defense. The fact that Lee or Mulder haven’t been given a shot to start in front of Oubre is maddening. Putting Steph with another shooter has always been the recipe to make this system go imo.

Because this year doesn't matter... whats not to follow? We're not winning this year. What we're doing is trying to maximize our return for Oubre (who is super unlikely to end the year on the team) and giving the non-Steph important pieces (Dray, Wiseman, Wiggins) a chance to grow by giving them offensive opportunities they wouldn't have if we were full strength. Because again.. who cares if we win a handful more games this year? Growth is the name of the game, and 2021-22 is what our actual target is. You guys are upset that Kerr isn't coaching like this is the playoffs, that he's doing something that benefits us more next year, when we will be trying to win again?

Per 36 minutes, with Oubre on the floor, Curry averages 26.5 points on 59.4 true shooting percentage. That’s pretty good, but the issue is that the Warriors are a terrible -7.2 in those minutes.
Per 36 minutes, with Damion Lee on the floor, Curry averages 37.0 points on 64.9 true shooting percentage. In those minutes, the Warriors are a world-beating +11.4. Quoted from the Athletic

I'm not at all arguing its a good move. I'm yelling to bench Oubre and have been saying to start Lee in game threads since Chicago.. but that's during the game. Afterwards its fairly easy to understand where Kerr is coming from and why its happening because the emotion from the game is gone.. but some just continue at that level and all of a sudden Kerr's an idiot who needs to be fired

Doubt its very many long-term fans saying that, we were on the carousel forever before Kerr and some want to jump back into that because of rotations in the first 15 games in a lost season