Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[Onus]

Sure, so trade him for Avdija or Cobi White, but draft picks? You're counting on late first rounders playing backup pg and C minutes in the playoffs? To a team that's trying to make a title run? I just don't see it happening for us and not sure when it happened.

I do hope he didn't play late because of the injury/ramp up/etc. but I get that hope is not a plan so I'm ok trading him. Not for draft picks, though.

Say we trade jk for either deni or coby, which free agents are you getting to fill out the roster?
Say we get coby how do you get a poa defender and center?

Coby and Deni are also green and never been to the playoffs so relying on them to perform in the playoffs is most likely just as fool hardy.

I don't think relying on avdija or white is nearly as risky as relying on two rookies to play minutes.

In terms of free agency, I think there are going to be a lot of players that get squeezed this summer and end up signing 1 year deals. If we get avdija (for just JK, let's pretend), I'd sign boucher and tyus for close to the min. Then I'd trade moody and a pick for cobi. All of a sudden, I have

Steph
Jimmy
Deni
Dray
Post/Boucher

Tyus
Podz
Cobi
Buddy
Boucher/post
Tjd
Gui

I realize it leaves us thin at the 5 but it's probably be fine for RS and come playoff time, we're closing with dray at 5 and either podz, cobi or buddy.

I don't really like to discuss the realism of trades but if you can get that, it's not a bad team just need a big that isn't just being moved out the way so easily. Also not sure Deni starts in that scenario would probably have to be White, Buddy, or Podz.

[SpreeS]

Why would teams like POR or CHI trade Avdija or Coby? Bad teams have young players on very reasonable contracts...Also why MEM would trade JJJ or BOS - White? Why are you looking for unrealistics deal at the momemnt? Brooklyn will offer good money for Kuminga and we f...d. This is most likely outcome.

[Onus]

Why would teams like POR or CHI trade Avdija or Coby? Bad teams have young players on very reasonable contracts...Also why MEM would trade JJJ or BOS - White? Why are you looking for unrealistics deal at the momemnt? Brooklyn will offer good money for Kuminga and we f...d. This is most likely outcome.

Brooklyn will make an offer JK and we're going to match is the more likely outcome. With GP2's decline we don't need him back. We really only need part of the tax payer mle for a big to replace Looney which we'll have as long as JK's contract isn't over 35M which is essentially a max.

And really we're not **** if we keep jk. This team was one of the best teams in the league once we acquired Jimmy. With a full season of Jimmy we won't need to scramble for wins down the stretch. JK getting a max limits our ability to give out more than a vet min, but free agent class isn't great anyway. Just have to work around the margins and pray for health. Just like Gordon straining his hamstring or Tatum blowing out his achilles. Injuries happen and not just to old people.

[vvoland]

Why would teams like POR or CHI trade Avdija or Coby? Bad teams have young players on very reasonable contracts...Also why MEM would trade JJJ or BOS - White? Why are you looking for unrealistics deal at the momemnt? Brooklyn will offer good money for Kuminga and we f...d. This is most likely outcome.

I mean it's super early in the offseason so yea, unrealistic trades is kinda all we got until October. That said, I definitely think JJJ can get traded considering Memphis may be looking to get out of the Ja business and Jackson is coming up on a fat extension next summer. The reason to target Portland would be because they're a terrible franchise, with absent ownership, that is currently selling the team. Would they be tempted by two young players and a pick? JK? I don't know but Dal just traded Luka for a guy nicknamed "street clothes" so, you never know.

Chi is a dumpster fire and has been since before MJ got there. I have no clue what they're going to do other than compete for the 15th pick in the draft, again. I'd definitely want to talk to them about Cobi and Ball (maybe) but with such a weird FO and no history of making trades, that's probably the hardest one to gauge.

[TB]

I think there is a solid chance that nobody goes over 20m for Kuminga. There just aren’t alot of teams with cap space and it’s hard to imagine someone going out of their way to free up space to get Kuminga over MLE money.

And if someone is in the 20m range, obviously we can look at that teams S&T options… but if there aren’t any, I wouldnt be surprised if we just keep Kuminga for about 20m a year and then use the TPMLE and 3 vet minimum spots while staying under 2nd apron.

In that scenario, I have a feeling Dray will pull an Andre and volunteer to come off the bench for Kuminga.

I think a fairly realistic version of this would look something like:

Kuminga for 20m

TPMLE and vet minimums for Brook Lopez, Malcom Brogdon, Deanthony Melton. Not sure which gets the TPMLE but I think all of them are in that range and could take a vet minimums if the role is legit, which it would be with the Warriors.

Then one last vet minimum for Loon or GP2 or Spencer.

Now we are looking at a depth chart like:

Steph / Brogdon / Spencer
Podz / Melton / Buddy
Jimmy / Moody
Kuminga / Dray / Santos
Lopez / Post / Trayce

Now, those last spots obviously could go in alot of directions, for instance i’d try and trade Trayce and 2nd rounders for a 3/D like Julian Phillips, then keep Looney. Plus i’d be trying to get into the late 1st for Tahaad or Yaxel... But the main point is that we can keep Kuminga and still have a roster better set up for Steph/Jimmy than what we had this season.

[bay2hk]

I think there is a solid chance that nobody goes over 20m for Kuminga. There just aren’t alot of teams with cap space and it’s hard to imagine someone going out of their way to free up space to get Kuminga over MLE money.

And if someone is in the 20m range, obviously we can look at that teams S&T options… but if there aren’t any, I wouldnt be surprised if we just keep Kuminga for about 20m a year and then use the TPMLE and 3 vet minimum spots while staying under 2nd apron.

In that scenario, I have a feeling Dray will pull an Andre and volunteer to come off the bench for Kuminga.

I think a fairly realistic version of this would look something like:

Kuminga for 20m

TPMLE and vet minimums for Brook Lopez, Malcom Brogdon, Deanthony Melton. Not sure which gets the TPMLE but I think all of them are in that range and could take a vet minimums if the role is legit, which it would be with the Warriors.

Then one last vet minimum for Loon or GP2 or Spencer.

Now we are looking at a depth chart like:

Steph / Brogdon / Spencer
Podz / Melton / Buddy
Jimmy / Moody
Kuminga / Dray / Santos
Lopez / Post / Trayce

Now, those last spots obviously could go in alot of directions, for instance i’d try and trade Trayce and 2nd rounders for a 3/D like Julian Phillips, then keep Looney. Plus i’d be trying to get into the late 1st for Tahaad or Yaxel... But the main point is that we can keep Kuminga and still have a roster better set up for Steph/Jimmy than what we had this season.

Unless nets makes an offer above the full MLE, warriors have the upper hand in negotiation. I say pay JK between the MLE and $20m per season over 4 years with a player option in the last year. This would be fair on all sides.

[TB]

I think there is a solid chance that nobody goes over 20m for Kuminga. There just aren’t alot of teams with cap space and it’s hard to imagine someone going out of their way to free up space to get Kuminga over MLE money.

And if someone is in the 20m range, obviously we can look at that teams S&T options… but if there aren’t any, I wouldnt be surprised if we just keep Kuminga for about 20m a year and then use the TPMLE and 3 vet minimum spots while staying under 2nd apron.

In that scenario, I have a feeling Dray will pull an Andre and volunteer to come off the bench for Kuminga.

I think a fairly realistic version of this would look something like:

Kuminga for 20m

TPMLE and vet minimums for Brook Lopez, Malcom Brogdon, Deanthony Melton. Not sure which gets the TPMLE but I think all of them are in that range and could take a vet minimums if the role is legit, which it would be with the Warriors.

Then one last vet minimum for Loon or GP2 or Spencer.

Now we are looking at a depth chart like:

Steph / Brogdon / Spencer
Podz / Melton / Buddy
Jimmy / Moody
Kuminga / Dray / Santos
Lopez / Post / Trayce

Now, those last spots obviously could go in alot of directions, for instance i’d try and trade Trayce and 2nd rounders for a 3/D like Julian Phillips, then keep Looney. Plus i’d be trying to get into the late 1st for Tahaad or Yaxel... But the main point is that we can keep Kuminga and still have a roster better set up for Steph/Jimmy than what we had this season.

Unless nets makes an offer above the full MLE, warriors have the upper hand in negotiation. I say pay JK between the MLE and $20m per season over 4 years with a player option in the last year. This would be fair on all sides.

I agree. And anywhere in that 18-22 range lets us use the full TPMLE while staying under the 2nd apron.

Now the arguments for letting him walk or a S&T would be:

S&T - Sure, if we can get someone back thats worthy, this is the preferred route. I’m just not confident we get someone back thats better even in the short term than what Kuminga could provide.

Let him walk - This would put us in the mix for using the full MLE…. which actually is a good plan if we think we can nail one of the top MLE targets… I just dont see someone like NAW picking us… maybe i’d do this for Davion Mitchell, but even then Miami probably matches. Other options might be Yabusele, Beasley, Bruce Brown, etc.

[bay2hk]

There is also another option where JK accepts the QO and bets on himself again. Highly unlikely because I think he learn his lesson from last offseason and will take guaranteed long term money this offseason.

[xdrta+]

Bulls podcast saying we can rescind the qo to JK and then sign and trade him at a max of 3 years but then it would remove the 50% byc and can trade for the full amount. Anyone know if this is true?

I watched the first 5 minutes where they make this claim, but they don't explain their reasons, just state it as a fact. These are the BYC rules:

First, the QO has nothing to do with it. RFA or FA doesn't matter. BYC (the 50% rule) applies to any S&T where the player meets 4 requirements.

1. He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
2. His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
3. He receives a raise greater than 20%.
4. His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.

Kuminga meets all these. Do they say anything later in the video that explains why the BYC wouldn't apply to him?

[EvanZ]

There is also another option where JK accepts the QO and bets on himself again. Highly unlikely because I think he learn his lesson from last offseason and will take guaranteed long term money this offseason.

I remember when Nerlens Noel bet on himself. Did not turn out well for him!

[Onus]

Bulls podcast saying we can rescind the qo to JK and then sign and trade him at a max of 3 years but then it would remove the 50% byc and can trade for the full amount. Anyone know if this is true?

I watched the first 5 minutes where they make this claim, but they don't explain their reasons, just state it as a fact. These are the BYC rules:

First, the QO has nothing to do with it. RFA or FA doesn't matter. BYC (the 50% rule) applies to any S&T where the player meets 4 requirements.

1. He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
2. His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
3. He receives a raise greater than 20%.
4. His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.

Kuminga meets all these. Do they say anything later in the video that explains why the BYC wouldn't apply to him?

They don't go into depth about why they believe that. Just that if they rescind it, we still have his early bird rights to offer more than any other team can give him and give him at most a 3 year deal. So I'd believe you than them, especially since he stated he hasn't seen any one bring this up.

[vvoland]

Bulls podcast saying we can rescind the qo to JK and then sign and trade him at a max of 3 years but then it would remove the 50% byc and can trade for the full amount. Anyone know if this is true?

I watched the first 5 minutes where they make this claim, but they don't explain their reasons, just state it as a fact. These are the BYC rules:

First, the QO has nothing to do with it. RFA or FA doesn't matter. BYC (the 50% rule) applies to any S&T where the player meets 4 requirements.

1. He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
2. His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
3. He receives a raise greater than 20%.
4. His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.

Kuminga meets all these. Do they say anything later in the video that explains why the BYC wouldn't apply to him?

I guess it's possible the offer JK gets would start at just under 10M so it's not completely impossible he doesn't meet the 20% raise requirement but that seems verrrrrrry unlikely

[Onus]

I think there is a solid chance that nobody goes over 20m for Kuminga. There just aren’t alot of teams with cap space and it’s hard to imagine someone going out of their way to free up space to get Kuminga over MLE money.

And if someone is in the 20m range, obviously we can look at that teams S&T options… but if there aren’t any, I wouldnt be surprised if we just keep Kuminga for about 20m a year and then use the TPMLE and 3 vet minimum spots while staying under 2nd apron.

In that scenario, I have a feeling Dray will pull an Andre and volunteer to come off the bench for Kuminga.

I think a fairly realistic version of this would look something like:

Kuminga for 20m

TPMLE and vet minimums for Brook Lopez, Malcom Brogdon, Deanthony Melton. Not sure which gets the TPMLE but I think all of them are in that range and could take a vet minimums if the role is legit, which it would be with the Warriors.

Then one last vet minimum for Loon or GP2 or Spencer.

Now we are looking at a depth chart like:

Steph / Brogdon / Spencer
Podz / Melton / Buddy
Jimmy / Moody
Kuminga / Dray / Santos
Lopez / Post / Trayce

Now, those last spots obviously could go in alot of directions, for instance i’d try and trade Trayce and 2nd rounders for a 3/D like Julian Phillips, then keep Looney. Plus i’d be trying to get into the late 1st for Tahaad or Yaxel... But the main point is that we can keep Kuminga and still have a roster better set up for Steph/Jimmy than what we had this season.

Unless nets makes an offer above the full MLE, warriors have the upper hand in negotiation. I say pay JK between the MLE and $20m per season over 4 years with a player option in the last year. This would be fair on all sides.

I agree. And anywhere in that 18-22 range lets us use the full TPMLE while staying under the 2nd apron.

Now the arguments for letting him walk or a S&T would be:

S&T - Sure, if we can get someone back thats worthy, this is the preferred route. I’m just not confident we get someone back thats better even in the short term than what Kuminga could provide.

Let him walk - This would put us in the mix for using the full MLE…. which actually is a good plan if we think we can nail one of the top MLE targets… I just dont see someone like NAW picking us… maybe i’d do this for Davion Mitchell, but even then Miami probably matches. Other options might be Yabusele, Beasley, Bruce Brown, etc.

The only way JK's salary would become an issue is if the Nets give him something over 35M. But in lieu of that he's most likely coming back. I don't think we're getting a player for the full mle that would be better than JK, so unlikely we let him walk for nothing.

[vvoland]

Unless nets makes an offer above the full MLE, warriors have the upper hand in negotiation. I say pay JK between the MLE and $20m per season over 4 years with a player option in the last year. This would be fair on all sides.

I agree. And anywhere in that 18-22 range lets us use the full TPMLE while staying under the 2nd apron.

Now the arguments for letting him walk or a S&T would be:

S&T - Sure, if we can get someone back thats worthy, this is the preferred route. I’m just not confident we get someone back thats better even in the short term than what Kuminga could provide.

Let him walk - This would put us in the mix for using the full MLE…. which actually is a good plan if we think we can nail one of the top MLE targets… I just dont see someone like NAW picking us… maybe i’d do this for Davion Mitchell, but even then Miami probably matches. Other options might be Yabusele, Beasley, Bruce Brown, etc.

The only way JK's salary would become an issue is if the Nets give him something over 35M. But in lieu of that he's most likely coming back. I don't think we're getting a player for the full mle that would be better than JK, so unlikely we let him walk for nothing.

Is it me or are you evolving on this position? I think it speaks well of JK, and you, that his value is rising, if only due to lack of better options. If it isn't clear, I agree wholeheartedly.

[Onus]

I think there is a solid chance that nobody goes over 20m for Kuminga. There just aren’t alot of teams with cap space and it’s hard to imagine someone going out of their way to free up space to get Kuminga over MLE money.

And if someone is in the 20m range, obviously we can look at that teams S&T options… but if there aren’t any, I wouldnt be surprised if we just keep Kuminga for about 20m a year and then use the TPMLE and 3 vet minimum spots while staying under 2nd apron.

In that scenario, I have a feeling Dray will pull an Andre and volunteer to come off the bench for Kuminga.

I think a fairly realistic version of this would look something like:

Kuminga for 20m

TPMLE and vet minimums for Brook Lopez, Malcom Brogdon, Deanthony Melton. Not sure which gets the TPMLE but I think all of them are in that range and could take a vet minimums if the role is legit, which it would be with the Warriors.

Then one last vet minimum for Loon or GP2 or Spencer.

Now we are looking at a depth chart like:

Steph / Brogdon / Spencer
Podz / Melton / Buddy
Jimmy / Moody
Kuminga / Dray / Santos
Lopez / Post / Trayce

Now, those last spots obviously could go in alot of directions, for instance i’d try and trade Trayce and 2nd rounders for a 3/D like Julian Phillips, then keep Looney. Plus i’d be trying to get into the late 1st for Tahaad or Yaxel... But the main point is that we can keep Kuminga and still have a roster better set up for Steph/Jimmy than what we had this season.

I really want to get Yaxel and Clayton/Tahaad. Somehow get one of BKN picks at 26 or 27 and maybe one of CHA 2nd rd picks at 33 or 34.

[xdrta+]

They don't go into depth about why they believe that. Just that if they rescind it, we still have his early bird rights to offer more than any other team can give him and give him at most a 3 year deal. So I'd believe you than them, especially since he stated he hasn't seen any one bring this up.

You know, I looked at that section again (well, I read the closed captions) and I think we may have misunderstood it. They seem to have moved on from an S&T and they're talking about JK as a UFA (which they're a little confused on since we would have his full Bird rights) and the Warriors signing him to 20-25M with a "handshake deal" with the Bulls. To me, a handshake deal could only mean a trade to the Bulls later. Seems ridiculous on the face of it, but that's the only way I could see it make sense.

[Onus]

They don't go into depth about why they believe that. Just that if they rescind it, we still have his early bird rights to offer more than any other team can give him and give him at most a 3 year deal. So I'd believe you than them, especially since he stated he hasn't seen any one bring this up.

You know, I looked at that section again (well, I read the closed captions) and I think we may have misunderstood it. They seem to have moved on from an S&T and they're talking about JK as a UFA (which they're a little confused on since we would have his full Bird rights) and the Warriors signing him to 20-25M with a "handshake deal" with the Bulls. To me, a handshake deal could only mean a trade to the Bulls later. Seems ridiculous on the face of it, but that's the only way I could see it make sense.

How long would you have to wait to trade him? I highly doubt that would work since if he's back we're going to start him someway somehow.

[AirP.]

With Kuminga being a RFA he will talk to other teams, if someone (or multiple teams) say they'd give him 30+ mil in a sign and trade, it's going to be a really bad situation if GS doesn't S&T him and then low balls him with a much loser offer because they can (especially after offering 30 mil a year and then him being one of the only real scorers after Curry got hurt). That will be a really bad situation until he's traded, even if he were to start, his money has been messed with.

[xdrta+]

They don't go into depth about why they believe that. Just that if they rescind it, we still have his early bird rights to offer more than any other team can give him and give him at most a 3 year deal. So I'd believe you than them, especially since he stated he hasn't seen any one bring this up.

You know, I looked at that section again (well, I read the closed captions) and I think we may have misunderstood it. They seem to have moved on from an S&T and they're talking about JK as a UFA (which they're a little confused on since we would have his full Bird rights) and the Warriors signing him to 20-25M with a "handshake deal" with the Bulls. To me, a handshake deal could only mean a trade to the Bulls later. Seems ridiculous on the face of it, but that's the only way I could see it make sense.

How long would you have to wait to trade him? I highly doubt that would work since if he's back we're going to start him someway somehow.

December 15. That's why it's ridiculous.

[HiRez]

I agree. And anywhere in that 18-22 range lets us use the full TPMLE while staying under the 2nd apron.

Now the arguments for letting him walk or a S&T would be:

S&T - Sure, if we can get someone back thats worthy, this is the preferred route. I’m just not confident we get someone back thats better even in the short term than what Kuminga could provide.

Let him walk - This would put us in the mix for using the full MLE…. which actually is a good plan if we think we can nail one of the top MLE targets… I just dont see someone like NAW picking us… maybe i’d do this for Davion Mitchell, but even then Miami probably matches. Other options might be Yabusele, Beasley, Bruce Brown, etc.

The only way JK's salary would become an issue is if the Nets give him something over 35M. But in lieu of that he's most likely coming back. I don't think we're getting a player for the full mle that would be better than JK, so unlikely we let him walk for nothing.

Is it me or are you evolving on this position? I think it speaks well of JK, and you, that his value is rising, if only due to lack of better options. If it isn't clear, I agree wholeheartedly.

If JK stays, it's really on Kerr to find a way to make it work with Steph, Draymond, Jimmy, and Kuminga, that's why he's making $17.5M per year and the highest-paid coach in the league. If I'm Lacob, I'm not accepting this "he doesn't fit what we're doing" and "it's just a matchup thing" and "I just went with my gut" crap anymore. Kuminga was very clearly the best Warriors player in the Minnesota series (certainly the most productive on the offensive end and played some really good man defense as well), and was playing great before he got injured earlier. Make it work. That doesn't mean Kuminga doesn't have to hold up his end of the bargain, but there's got to be ways to use Kuminga while not completely neutralizing the Steph-centric system.

I heard Kerr asked about Kuminga the other day and found it hilarious he was talking about how the best way to use him was in pick and roll action with Steph...but the Warriors run among the fewest pick and roll plays in the league. Like he literally pointed out one (but not the only) way to maximize that talent, but won't actually develop it and use it.

For Kuminga's part, he needs to be looking for lanes to cut at all times a lot like Jimmy and GP2 do. He's got the speed to exploit those creases in the defense but he's not going to find them by standing stationary in the corner -- that ends up with him being tempted to chuck 3s at the end of the shot clock, which is minimizing his strengths. Maybe someday he has a reliable 3 ball but right now it's not.