Warriors select Jonathan Kuminga with the 7th pick of the 2021 NBA Draft

[wco81]

Yeah Kerr doesn't understand, not like experts on Real GM.

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

You're right, you should school Kerr and Meyers who may give you a fat consultant fee.

Kerr's only won 403 out of 580 games coached for a .695 winning percentage so it's clear he needs to be educated.

[Jester_]

Yeah Kerr doesn't understand, not like experts on Real GM.

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

You're right, you should school Kerr and Meyers who may give you a fat consultant fee.

Kerr's only won 403 out of 580 games coached for a .695 winning percentage so it's clear he needs to be educated.

He's only had 4 superstars in their prime through that period including 2 top 12 players all time

[oaktownwarriors87]

Kuminga is why you play rookies early. For everyone who railed Kerr about playing Wiseman too much and how he "learned" or "failed".. this Boxing Day crow is for you

If you have a big, 'raw' talent, play them early, levelset who they are as players, and then create a plan of attack. With Kuminga, we can probably get away with playing him 10-15mpg in games we need to win, right now. We could also take where he is now, send him to the GLeague and tell him to dominate (when GL restarts, anyways) and that if/when he does that, he'll come back to a scoring 7th man role, basically the old Paschall role. Either way probably works, but thats not something we could say if he was being treated like a raw rookie.

i don't see the comp between Wise and minga

problem with Wiseman wasn't that we were playing him early, it was the fact that we were actively changing our offense to accommodate him on the court

this is not happening with Kuminga...Minga is coming in and essentially just playing the JTA role, just running and cutting and defense, we're not drawing up slow processing post plays for Minga like we consistently did for Wiseman last yr just to try and get him involved.

Wiseman got 1.8 touches per game on the low block that were not from an OREB.. Looney gets 0.7 and Nemo gets 0.6 (Looney was at 1.0 last year and 0.9 the year prior)

So it’s 300% increase compared to those guys, or 1 extra touch per game. The problem was, and is, that Wiseman was so unprepared for the role, that each instance sticks out, whereas our current Cs don’t typically end the possession from those spots

Wiseman also had the added.. benefit.. of playing with some very bad fits. 63% of his time was with Oubre. Of the remaining 37%, 28% was without Curry, and one of Wanamaker or Poole running the offense.

I’m just saying the numbers don’t bear out this dramatic shift, we just remember it clearer because it went that badly

Kuminga works for the ball, Wiseman was given the ball.

In the 121 minutes Curry and Wiseman played without Oubre they were -8.1

In total Curry and Wiseman were -8.8 together (553 minutes), and Wiseman had a 22.7% usage (2nd only to Curry)

In the 1st quarter Wiseman had a higher usage than Curry when paired with Curry (24.6% vs 24.0%). In those minutes the team was -15.5 (per 100 possessions).

I don't blame Wiseman, I blame Kerr. Wiseman should earn his buckets and play the PnR. Steve Kerr just hates the PnR and likes his big standing on the perimeter. Instead of using his big mans size and athleticism to create space, he uses Curry as a decoy and runs him into the ground.

Warriors rank in roll man frequency:

15/16 27th
16/17 30th
17/18 27th
18/19 29th
19/20 27th
20/21 30th
21/22 30th

[FNQ]

So in one corner, we changed the offense for Wiseman and it’s Kerr’s fault

And in the other corner, we didn’t change the offense enough for Wiseman and it’s Kerr’s fault

I’m not saying it’s gonna happen by any means.. but if Wiseman comes back this year and is a positive impact player, y’all better not leave one inch of Steve Kerr’s ass unkissed

[wco81]

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

You're right, you should school Kerr and Meyers who may give you a fat consultant fee.

Kerr's only won 403 out of 580 games coached for a .695 winning percentage so it's clear he needs to be educated.

He's only had 4 superstars in their prime through that period including 2 top 12 players all time

That must be why Mark Jackson is such a thriving coach now.

[Jester_]

You're right, you should school Kerr and Meyers who may give you a fat consultant fee.

Kerr's only won 403 out of 580 games coached for a .695 winning percentage so it's clear he needs to be educated.

He's only had 4 superstars in their prime through that period including 2 top 12 players all time

That must be why Mark Jackson is such a thriving coach now.

Mark Jackson nearly made the conference finals with a sophomore Klay Thompson as his 2nd best player. But sure let's bring that weak old argument up.

[wco81]

He's only had 4 superstars in their prime through that period including 2 top 12 players all time

That must be why Mark Jackson is such a thriving coach now.

Mark Jackson nearly made the conference finals with a sophomore Klay Thompson as his 2nd best player. But sure let's bring that weak old argument up.

Curry would have 5 MVP's playing one on one from beyond the arc!

Warriors would have 5 rings!

What a blunder, Lacob firing Jackson and hiring Kerr!

[michaelm]

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

You're right, you should school Kerr and Meyers who may give you a fat consultant fee.

Kerr's only won 403 out of 580 games coached for a .695 winning percentage so it's clear he needs to be educated.

He's only had 4 superstars in their prime through that period including 2 top 12 players all time

One of whom became so when Kerr’s offensive scheme allowed him to play to his potential, and the other who joined to play the GSW system with Curry under Kerr.

Jackson absolutely deserves credit for the defensive prowess which was the hallmark of the dynasty GSW teams, and will be again in hopefully further years of contention, although acquiring Bogut whom Green often credits as a mentor and Iguodala might have had some influence as well. Even apart from the attitude to the organisation which might have worked in a Hollywood movie like ‘Major League’ but is not feasible in real life the pre-Kerr GSW team with the greatest shooting backcourt of all time being only average offensively was an indictment of Jackson as a coach.

[clyde21]

remarkable how one criticism of Kerr means that he should've never been hired or should be fired to you guys lmao

it's like a little vomit inducing cult

[clyde21]

Wiseman got 1.8 touches per game on the low block that were not from an OREB.. Looney gets 0.7 and Nemo gets 0.6 (Looney was at 1.0 last year and 0.9 the year prior)

So it’s 300% increase compared to those guys, or 1 extra touch per game. The problem was, and is, that Wiseman was so unprepared for the role, that each instance sticks out, whereas our current Cs don’t typically end the possession from those spots

Wiseman also had the added.. benefit.. of playing with some very bad fits. 63% of his time was with Oubre. Of the remaining 37%, 28% was without Curry, and one of Wanamaker or Poole running the offense.

I’m just saying the numbers don’t bear out this dramatic shift, we just remember it clearer because it went that badly

point still stands, our offense instantly changed when Wiseman was on the court, he's naturally a high usage big that can't really pass or set screens...and we saw how terrible that was when he played...On/Off numbers last season with and without Wiseman for everyone speak for themselves

none of this true for Minga and Moody and why they should play immediately and continue to play, you're not really changing the constitution of your scheme or offensive principles when they are on the court the same way you kinda had to to get Wiseman involved at any real level for a 2nd overall pick...so I again, I just think the comp is off.

i know its a dead horse, but Wiseman just should've never been the pick. it was always obvious he was a bad fit here schematically.

They didn’t ‘t draft him to be a second Patrick Ewing, they wanted a second Kevin Durant. Quite unlikely he will be anywhere close, but I also don’t consider that how a guy plays as a 19 year old with a quite limited basketball education in unusual circumstances sets the limit on how he can play for the rest of his career. As has been said two other members of the starting five were unfamiliar with the GSW/Curry system, and if you want a poster child for a player unsuited to that system Oubre is he. I also think the organisation believed the only way they could contend was for Wiseman to develop quickly. He was being utilised in a more nuanced fashion and doing better just before he went down as has also been said. If he was played in a fashion contrary to what Kerr would have chosen on his own because he was a Lacob pick and Lacob is high on him then that was insatisfactory and will be continue to be unsatisfactory in the future. Hard to see how in current circumstances Kerr could treat him differently than Kuminga and Moody though, particularly when Kunminga at 7 is looking very much like a great pick. I also think Lamelo would have been redundant, certainly as a starter, for a team that has Curry and Green, and that the Ball family shenanigans would have been horrible had he been drafted by GSW to be a bench player.

We shall see. If Wiseman continues to have bad hands, to not look strong enough to mix it with other 7 foot centers (we do need some center stuff from him and got same from the actual Kevin Durant), and looks to have no feel for the game going forward then that will make him a bad pick, but I don’t know why any GSW fan would want him to fail to prove a viewpoint that the FO shouldn’t have drafted him as seems to be the case with you.

lol you don't think that I want him to be great? if he's great it means we've locked up the next 15 years with a stud...you don't think I want that to happen because "i want to be right" on a message board? idgaf about that...maybe you do and you're projecting? that's something you might have to iron out with yourself not other people on here.

and I have no idea what you mean by 'they wanted a second Kevin Durant'...what does Wiseman have to do with KD? if they really thought Wiseman was the next KD then this front office should be drug tested.

[michaelm]

point still stands, our offense instantly changed when Wiseman was on the court, he's naturally a high usage big that can't really pass or set screens...and we saw how terrible that was when he played...On/Off numbers last season with and without Wiseman for everyone speak for themselves

none of this true for Minga and Moody and why they should play immediately and continue to play, you're not really changing the constitution of your scheme or offensive principles when they are on the court the same way you kinda had to to get Wiseman involved at any real level for a 2nd overall pick...so I again, I just think the comp is off.

i know its a dead horse, but Wiseman just should've never been the pick. it was always obvious he was a bad fit here schematically.

They didn’t ‘t draft him to be a second Patrick Ewing, they wanted a second Kevin Durant. Quite unlikely he will be anywhere close, but I also don’t consider that how a guy plays as a 19 year old with a quite limited basketball education in unusual circumstances sets the limit on how he can play for the rest of his career. As has been said two other members of the starting five were unfamiliar with the GSW/Curry system, and if you want a poster child for a player unsuited to that system Oubre is he. I also think the organisation believed the only way they could contend was for Wiseman to develop quickly. He was being utilised in a more nuanced fashion and doing better just before he went down as has also been said. If he was played in a fashion contrary to what Kerr would have chosen on his own because he was a Lacob pick and Lacob is high on him then that was insatisfactory and will be continue to be unsatisfactory in the future. Hard to see how in current circumstances Kerr could treat him differently than Kuminga and Moody though, particularly when Kunminga at 7 is looking very much like a great pick. I also think Lamelo would have been redundant, certainly as a starter, for a team that has Curry and Green, and that the Ball family shenanigans would have been horrible had he been drafted by GSW to be a bench player.

We shall see. If Wiseman continues to have bad hands, to not look strong enough to mix it with other 7 foot centers (we do need some center stuff from him and got same from the actual Kevin Durant), and looks to have no feel for the game going forward then that will make him a bad pick, but I don’t know why any GSW fan would want him to fail to prove a viewpoint that the FO shouldn’t have drafted him as seems to be the case with you.

lol you don't think that I want him to be great? if he's great it means we've locked up the next 15 years with a stud...you don't think I want that to happen because "i want to be right" on a message board? idgaf about that...maybe you do and you're projecting? that's something you might have to iron out with yourself not other people on here.

and I have no idea what you mean by 'they wanted a second Kevin Durant'...what does Wiseman have to do with KD? if they really thought Wiseman was the next KD then this front office should be drug tested.

Have it your way then. They wanted/drafted him to be a tall skilled offensive player who can play some defense was my point, not a lumbering traditional center. If Wiseman is only ever a tall lumbering traditional center then they did indeed make the wrong pick, but the jury is out on that at this point in time imo if not yours.

[clyde21]

They didn’t ‘t draft him to be a second Patrick Ewing, they wanted a second Kevin Durant. Quite unlikely he will be anywhere close, but I also don’t consider that how a guy plays as a 19 year old with a quite limited basketball education in unusual circumstances sets the limit on how he can play for the rest of his career. As has been said two other members of the starting five were unfamiliar with the GSW/Curry system, and if you want a poster child for a player unsuited to that system Oubre is he. I also think the organisation believed the only way they could contend was for Wiseman to develop quickly. He was being utilised in a more nuanced fashion and doing better just before he went down as has also been said. If he was played in a fashion contrary to what Kerr would have chosen on his own because he was a Lacob pick and Lacob is high on him then that was insatisfactory and will be continue to be unsatisfactory in the future. Hard to see how in current circumstances Kerr could treat him differently than Kuminga and Moody though, particularly when Kunminga at 7 is looking very much like a great pick. I also think Lamelo would have been redundant, certainly as a starter, for a team that has Curry and Green, and that the Ball family shenanigans would have been horrible had he been drafted by GSW to be a bench player.

We shall see. If Wiseman continues to have bad hands, to not look strong enough to mix it with other 7 foot centers (we do need some center stuff from him and got same from the actual Kevin Durant), and looks to have no feel for the game going forward then that will make him a bad pick, but I don’t know why any GSW fan would want him to fail to prove a viewpoint that the FO shouldn’t have drafted him as seems to be the case with you.

lol you don't think that I want him to be great? if he's great it means we've locked up the next 15 years with a stud...you don't think I want that to happen because "i want to be right" on a message board? idgaf about that...maybe you do and you're projecting? that's something you might have to iron out with yourself not other people on here.

and I have no idea what you mean by 'they wanted a second Kevin Durant'...what does Wiseman have to do with KD? if they really thought Wiseman was the next KD then this front office should be drug tested.

Have it your way then. They wanted/drafted him to be a tall skilled offensive player who can play some defense was my point, not a lumbering traditional center. If Wiseman is only ever a tall lumbering traditional center then they did indeed make the wrong pick, but the jury is out on that at this point in time imo if not yours.

that's just insane, no one in the world compared Wiseman to KD pre draft...if they were really operating under that assumption they might have been the only ones on the planet.

just bizarre.

[Duke4life831]

Wiseman got 1.8 touches per game on the low block that were not from an OREB.. Looney gets 0.7 and Nemo gets 0.6 (Looney was at 1.0 last year and 0.9 the year prior)

So it’s 300% increase compared to those guys, or 1 extra touch per game. The problem was, and is, that Wiseman was so unprepared for the role, that each instance sticks out, whereas our current Cs don’t typically end the possession from those spots

Wiseman also had the added.. benefit.. of playing with some very bad fits. 63% of his time was with Oubre. Of the remaining 37%, 28% was without Curry, and one of Wanamaker or Poole running the offense.

I’m just saying the numbers don’t bear out this dramatic shift, we just remember it clearer because it went that badly

point still stands, our offense instantly changed when Wiseman was on the court, he's naturally a high usage big that can't really pass or set screens...and we saw how terrible that was when he played...On/Off numbers last season with and without Wiseman for everyone speak for themselves

none of this true for Minga and Moody and why they should play immediately and continue to play, you're not really changing the constitution of your scheme or offensive principles when they are on the court the same way you kinda had to to get Wiseman involved at any real level for a 2nd overall pick...so I again, I just think the comp is off.

i know its a dead horse, but Wiseman just should've never been the pick. it was always obvious he was a bad fit here schematically.

They didn’t ‘t draft him to be a second Patrick Ewing, they wanted a second Kevin Durant. Quite unlikely he will be anywhere close, but I also don’t consider that how a guy plays as a 19 year old with a quite limited basketball education in unusual circumstances sets the limit on how he can play for the rest of his career. As has been said two other members of the starting five were unfamiliar with the GSW/Curry system, and if you want a poster child for a player unsuited to that system Oubre is he. I also think the organisation believed the only way they could contend was for Wiseman to develop quickly. He was being utilised in a more nuanced fashion and doing better just before he went down as has also been said. If he was played in a fashion contrary to what Kerr would have chosen on his own because he was a Lacob pick and Lacob is high on him then that was unsatisfactory and will be continue to be unsatisfactory in the future. Hard to see how in current circumstances Kerr could treat him differently than Kuminga and Moody though, particularly when Kunminga at 7 is looking very much like a great pick. I also think Lamelo would have been redundant, certainly as a starter, for a team that has Curry and Green, and that the Ball family shenanigans would have been horrible had he been drafted by GSW to be a bench player.

We shall see. If Wiseman continues to have bad hands, to not look strong enough to mix it with other 7 foot centers (we do need some center stuff from him and got same from the actual Kevin Durant), and looks to have no feel for the game going forward then that will make him a bad pick, but I don’t know why any GSW fan would want him to fail to prove a viewpoint that the FO shouldn’t have drafted him as seems to be the case with you.

This doesnt make any sense though. This would be like someone saying, GS didnt draft Kuminga to be an athletic 2 way wing, they drafted him to be the next JJ Redick. Its the definition of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Wiseman has never even shown flashes of being a KD kind of player. Wiseman became a top ranked high school player by being a very high usage low post player. I get there are high school high lights of him hitting 3s and stuff, but that was never a major aspect of his game. He has never excelled within a perimeter oriented offense before. He has always been in an offense that was built around getting him a ton of touches down low.

All the things GS wants from their 5 man, are all of Wiseman's biggest flaws. And all of Wiseman's biggest strengths, are all the things GS couldn't care less about having their 5 man do. This is why he looked like such a fish out of water last year.

Also dont get me wrong, Wiseman deserved the high school ranking he had and he clearly has potential. Do I think he will ever excel in the role GS is going to ask from him? No. Again he is asking to do all the things he is worst at, while not asking to take advantage of the things he is best at. Im also not blaming Kerr for not taking full advantage of what he is best at, that isnt what this system is built around.

[Duke4life831]

Ive always been a massive Kuminga fan so Im no doubt biased. But I definitely think he has played himself into deserving more consistent minutes. I also think with Green on the COVID list, he will have a game or two more to really solidify his minutes going forward.

Defensively I think Kerr has been really smart with how he's been playing him defensively. Just like any young rookie he can get lost on some rotations and off ball movement. But the dude has been damn good defending on the ball. It doesnt matter if its a wing or a PG like CP3, Kerr trust him to be the primary defender and its been working out pretty good. When he's on the court, he isnt hurting this team on the defensive end.

Then offensively with each passing game he looks more and more comfortable and confident out there.

First 12 games:
3ppg on 38/7/61 shooting (43 TS%)

Last 11 games:
6ppg on 59/50/69 shooting (69 TS%)

Now obviously he wont continue to shoot 50% from 3. But he is learning to pick his shots much better out there. When he is out there with Steph, he isnt disrupting the flow of the offense or anything like that. He is out there setting off ball screens, the ball isnt stopping when it reaches him, and so on.

[Mac1958]

Ive always been a massive Kuminga fan so Im no doubt biased. But I definitely think he has played himself into deserving more consistent minutes.

Yeah, I'm trying not to get too excited, but I think it's pretty clear now that he has the capacity to grow a great deal in both skill and BBIQ. He's not going to be one of those guys who are an athlete only, who don't have what it takes to become a fully-rounded NBA player. Given where he his now, that's pretty exciting.

In fact, come to think of it, I can use my all-time favorite sports mixed metaphor on Kuminga, one I heard about 25 years ago:

"His ceiling is through the roof!"

[michaelm]

point still stands, our offense instantly changed when Wiseman was on the court, he's naturally a high usage big that can't really pass or set screens...and we saw how terrible that was when he played...On/Off numbers last season with and without Wiseman for everyone speak for themselves

none of this true for Minga and Moody and why they should play immediately and continue to play, you're not really changing the constitution of your scheme or offensive principles when they are on the court the same way you kinda had to to get Wiseman involved at any real level for a 2nd overall pick...so I again, I just think the comp is off.

i know its a dead horse, but Wiseman just should've never been the pick. it was always obvious he was a bad fit here schematically.

They didn’t ‘t draft him to be a second Patrick Ewing, they wanted a second Kevin Durant. Quite unlikely he will be anywhere close, but I also don’t consider that how a guy plays as a 19 year old with a quite limited basketball education in unusual circumstances sets the limit on how he can play for the rest of his career. As has been said two other members of the starting five were unfamiliar with the GSW/Curry system, and if you want a poster child for a player unsuited to that system Oubre is he. I also think the organisation believed the only way they could contend was for Wiseman to develop quickly. He was being utilised in a more nuanced fashion and doing better just before he went down as has also been said. If he was played in a fashion contrary to what Kerr would have chosen on his own because he was a Lacob pick and Lacob is high on him then that was unsatisfactory and will be continue to be unsatisfactory in the future. Hard to see how in current circumstances Kerr could treat him differently than Kuminga and Moody though, particularly when Kunminga at 7 is looking very much like a great pick. I also think Lamelo would have been redundant, certainly as a starter, for a team that has Curry and Green, and that the Ball family shenanigans would have been horrible had he been drafted by GSW to be a bench player.

We shall see. If Wiseman continues to have bad hands, to not look strong enough to mix it with other 7 foot centers (we do need some center stuff from him and got same from the actual Kevin Durant), and looks to have no feel for the game going forward then that will make him a bad pick, but I don’t know why any GSW fan would want him to fail to prove a viewpoint that the FO shouldn’t have drafted him as seems to be the case with you.

This doesnt make any sense though. This would be like someone saying, GS didnt draft Kuminga to be an athletic 2 way wing, they drafted him to be the next JJ Redick. Its the definition of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Wiseman has never even shown flashes of being a KD kind of player. Wiseman became a top ranked high school player by being a very high usage low post player. I get there are high school high lights of him hitting 3s and stuff, but that was never a major aspect of his game. He has never excelled within a perimeter oriented offense before. He has always been in an offense that was built around getting him a ton of touches down low.

All the things GS wants from their 5 man, are all of Wiseman's biggest flaws. And all of Wiseman's biggest strengths, are all the things GS couldn't care less about having their 5 man do. This is why he looked like such a fish out of water last year.

Also dont get me wrong, Wiseman deserved the high school ranking he had and he clearly has potential. Do I think he will ever excel in the role GS is going to ask from him? No. Again he is asking to do all the things he is worst at, while not asking to take advantage of the things he is best at. Im also not blaming Kerr for not taking full advantage of what he is best at, that isnt what this system is built around.

Sure, I don’t deny he may well have been an incorrect choice, particularly if he was mainly a Joe Lacob choice rather than chosen by the professionals who going by past record and particularly the most recent off season are fairly good at choosing. My point has always been that they didn’t choose him to be a lumbering traditional center. I still think there is a chance of developing him, particularly given he had very little basketball education and was limited further by contracting Covid pre-season. If they had the chance to pick Edwards or someone like Mobley had same been available in that draft and picked Wiseman those would have been egregious errors, but I am not sold on LaMelo being a better choice for GSW at least short term, particularly given he doesn’t play much defense and that his father would have been unhappy with him not starting. Given the treatment of JFK this year I think Wiseman will not be played overly if he is a negative, so the only problem I see is him perhaps being a cause of not having a more well suited center. People like Kerr, Green and Iguodala still seem to be high on him though, and GSW have hired staff to specifically coach him intensively, so I am not writing him off especially at his age until I see him failing to progress in better circumstances than last year.

[clyde21]

i just dont understand where the KD comp is even coming from - is there any quote by the FO comparing Wiseman to KD at any point prior to the draft or after the draft? any FO or scout for the matter?

[michaelm]

i just dont understand where the KD comp is even coming from - is there any quote by the FO comparing Wiseman to KD at any point prior to the draft or after the draft? any FO or scout for the matter?

Not from anyone, including me. KD is the archetype imo of the type of 7’ player GSW, or Lacob at least, wanted to get ie a lithe athletic guy with non traditional center offensive skills. He isn’t going to be as good as Patrick Ewing, whom I referred to as the opposing archetype of a traditional center, at GSW or elsewhere either fairly obviously. The comparison which was made seriously prior to last season was to David Robinson, a very high bar to attempt indeed which he gave few signs of reaching last season.

However it is factually the case that Wiseman himself is on record saying he sought advice from Kevin Durant, being quoted in one article in April this year as saying that he was speaking to KD most days. And KD himself in another article rated Wiseman’s potential highly and was quoted as saying he was giving JW advice on how to fit the GSW system.

[michaelm]

Double

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Jermaine O'Neal