Warriors select Jonathan Kuminga with the 7th pick of the 2021 NBA Draft

[sjballer03]

Yeah Kerr doesn't understand, not like experts on Real GM.

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

So if we don't agree with you it means we're appealing to authority? Nice try lol. You could even support Kerr and we'll still go against you. Come up with actual data to support your arguments instead of complaining that no one agrees with you.

[Impuniti]

Hoping Kerr takes him out of the dog house, but I'm sure he'll find a way to play Chiozza over him for whatever reason.

Wait, who's in the dog house? Not Kuminga who has averaged 19mpg over the last 4. I don't think you know what a dog house is.

The team has been decimated with injuries/corona, Kerr hasn't had much of a choice recently. We'll see what happens once the squad is back.

[clyde21]

Yeah Kerr doesn't understand, not like experts on Real GM.

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

So if we don't agree with you it means we're appealing to authority? Nice try lol. You could even support Kerr and we'll still go against you. Come up with actual data to support your arguments instead of complaining that no one agrees with you.

no, when people are not allowed to criticize and question anything Kerr is doing because he's the coach and we're not, that's classic appeal to authority BS.

and what data are you talking about? do you even know what this discussion was about?

[xdrta+]

the usual appeal to authority nonsense, why even bother posting if all we're ever allowed to do say is 'Kerr is perfect'

So if we don't agree with you it means we're appealing to authority? Nice try lol. You could even support Kerr and we'll still go against you. Come up with actual data to support your arguments instead of complaining that no one agrees with you.

no, when people are not allowed to criticize and question anything Kerr is doing because he's the coach and we're not, that's classic appeal to authority BS.

and what data are you talking about? do you even know what this discussion was about?

That's pretty funny. You're not allowed to criticize Kerr? Yet somehow I see it constantly.

[clyde21]

So if we don't agree with you it means we're appealing to authority? Nice try lol. You could even support Kerr and we'll still go against you. Come up with actual data to support your arguments instead of complaining that no one agrees with you.

no, when people are not allowed to criticize and question anything Kerr is doing because he's the coach and we're not, that's classic appeal to authority BS.

and what data are you talking about? do you even know what this discussion was about?

That's pretty funny. You're not allowed to criticize Kerr? Yet somehow I see it constantly.

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

[xdrta+]

no, when people are not allowed to criticize and question anything Kerr is doing because he's the coach and we're not, that's classic appeal to authority BS.

and what data are you talking about? do you even know what this discussion was about?

That's pretty funny. You're not allowed to criticize Kerr? Yet somehow I see it constantly.

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

Yeah, sometimes people disagree, my point was you don't seem to know what the word "allow" means.

[Duke4life831]

They didn’t ‘t draft him to be a second Patrick Ewing, they wanted a second Kevin Durant. Quite unlikely he will be anywhere close, but I also don’t consider that how a guy plays as a 19 year old with a quite limited basketball education in unusual circumstances sets the limit on how he can play for the rest of his career. As has been said two other members of the starting five were unfamiliar with the GSW/Curry system, and if you want a poster child for a player unsuited to that system Oubre is he. I also think the organisation believed the only way they could contend was for Wiseman to develop quickly. He was being utilised in a more nuanced fashion and doing better just before he went down as has also been said. If he was played in a fashion contrary to what Kerr would have chosen on his own because he was a Lacob pick and Lacob is high on him then that was unsatisfactory and will be continue to be unsatisfactory in the future. Hard to see how in current circumstances Kerr could treat him differently than Kuminga and Moody though, particularly when Kunminga at 7 is looking very much like a great pick. I also think Lamelo would have been redundant, certainly as a starter, for a team that has Curry and Green, and that the Ball family shenanigans would have been horrible had he been drafted by GSW to be a bench player.

We shall see. If Wiseman continues to have bad hands, to not look strong enough to mix it with other 7 foot centers (we do need some center stuff from him and got same from the actual Kevin Durant), and looks to have no feel for the game going forward then that will make him a bad pick, but I don’t know why any GSW fan would want him to fail to prove a viewpoint that the FO shouldn’t have drafted him as seems to be the case with you.

This doesnt make any sense though. This would be like someone saying, GS didnt draft Kuminga to be an athletic 2 way wing, they drafted him to be the next JJ Redick. Its the definition of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Wiseman has never even shown flashes of being a KD kind of player. Wiseman became a top ranked high school player by being a very high usage low post player. I get there are high school high lights of him hitting 3s and stuff, but that was never a major aspect of his game. He has never excelled within a perimeter oriented offense before. He has always been in an offense that was built around getting him a ton of touches down low.

All the things GS wants from their 5 man, are all of Wiseman's biggest flaws. And all of Wiseman's biggest strengths, are all the things GS couldn't care less about having their 5 man do. This is why he looked like such a fish out of water last year.

Also dont get me wrong, Wiseman deserved the high school ranking he had and he clearly has potential. Do I think he will ever excel in the role GS is going to ask from him? No. Again he is asking to do all the things he is worst at, while not asking to take advantage of the things he is best at. Im also not blaming Kerr for not taking full advantage of what he is best at, that isnt what this system is built around.

Sure, I don’t deny he may well have been an incorrect choice, particularly if he was mainly a Joe Lacob choice rather than chosen by the professionals who going by past record and particularly the most recent off season are fairly good at choosing. My point has always been that they didn’t choose him to be a lumbering traditional center. I still think there is a chance of developing him, particularly given he had very little basketball education and was limited further by contracting Covid pre-season. If they had the chance to pick Edwards or someone like Mobley had same been available in that draft and picked Wiseman those would have been egregious errors, but I am not sold on LaMelo being a better choice for GSW at least short term, particularly given he doesn’t play much defense and that his father would have been unhappy with him not starting. Given the treatment of JFK this year I think Wiseman will not be played overly if he is a negative, so the only problem I see is him perhaps being a cause of not having a more well suited center. People like Kerr, Green and Iguodala still seem to be high on him though, and GSW have hired staff to specifically coach him intensively, so I am not writing him off especially at his age until I see him him failing to progress in better circumstances than last year.

I didnt agree with the pick but I get the thought process behind it. There was a drop-off in perceived value after the top 3 in that draft. Edwards wasn't available at 2, its not like LaMelo would be a great fit here and he had the possible Lavar headache, so they went with Wiseman. I think Patrick Williams was by far the most GS kind of player in that top 5, but again there was a significant perceived value drop-off after the top 3 guys. So I wouldnt be shocked if they wanted to trade down but didnt get any great returns, so they went with Wiseman with the hope he might workout and if not they can flip him for something else later on.

At least that is what I hope is the thought process. Best case scenario in my opinion is he gets the Javale kind of role and gets about 9 minutes a game and his per 36 stats look great and a team bites on his potential and GS trades him.

Because to me his biggest issues are some of the hardest things to learn. Because of that I just dont see him ever being a big time player in GS, at least by the time we are still seeing prime Steph. Defensive awareness isnt something players learn just over night. This has always been one of, if not his biggest issue. And again he needs to go from all of his basketball life being a high volume low post guy, to learning how to excel on the offensive end in a perimeter ball movement oriented offense.

To me there is a big difference between the Wiseman pick and the Kuminga and Moody picks. Moody I think is a low ceiling player, but a 6'6 3&D player with a 7' wingspan is a clear fit in this team (pretty much any team really). Kuminga was the high ceiling pick, but unlike Wiseman his current fit and long term fit with this team is clear and ideal.

So my hope with the Wiseman pick is, they took him just because of his perceived value around the league. They were willing to give him a shot to see if he works out, but if not they will look to flip him for a better fit (ala D'Angelo Russell).

[GunnerWRX]

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

Did people disagree with your opinion, or did they tell you how dare you brought it up and told you to shut up?

There is a big difference.

Show some examples?

Don’t be mistaken that having many people not agreeing with you, is the same as people telling you to shut up.

[shazam_guy]

Yes, much like the demon Cancel Culture, where no one actually gets cancelled, they just get called out by people who disagree with them, then complain that they've been silenced -- very loudly, very frequently, and without any apparent penalty.

[clyde21]

That's pretty funny. You're not allowed to criticize Kerr? Yet somehow I see it constantly.

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

Yeah, sometimes people disagree, my point was you don't seem to know what the word "allow" means.

there's a difference between disagreement and the cult throwing a temper tantrum anytime someone questions anything Kerr does.

[michaelm]

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

Yeah, sometimes people disagree, my point was you don't seem to know what the word "allow" means.

there's a difference between disagreement and the cult throwing a temper tantrum anytime someone questions anything Kerr does.

There isn’t a poster on here who considers Kerr to be great at in game rotations. Maybe his coaching even cost them a 4th title although there were other factors at play including Curry’s injury, Bogut’s injury and imo the NBA wanting a longer series.

Most probably do think however that an organisation which made the finals 5 years in a row, winning 3 of them, and has on the evidence of this year so far successfully re-booted after a 2 year interregnum is doing a lot right, and prefer to enjoy the success rather than being relentlessly negative about a team concerning which there is much to enjoy.

[Optimisticwarrior]

no, when people are not allowed to criticize and question anything Kerr is doing because he's the coach and we're not, that's classic appeal to authority BS.

and what data are you talking about? do you even know what this discussion was about?

That's pretty funny. You're not allowed to criticize Kerr? Yet somehow I see it constantly.

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

This board was a lot better before your arrival. Trust me, I have been here for a while now ...

[a8bil]

yes, I criticize his rotations, and every time I do, half of you jump down my and anyone else's throat that dares bring it up.

remarkably, this is board is turning into one of the worst places on the forum to actually discuss warriors bball.

Yeah, sometimes people disagree, my point was you don't seem to know what the word "allow" means.

there's a difference between disagreement and the cult throwing a temper tantrum anytime someone questions anything Kerr does.

Come on Clyde...this "cult throwing a temper tantrum" is you building a strawman to advance your narrative that you're persecuted by the board. It's pathetic. Just discuss your opinions. No one is telling you not to, but don't expect to not get pushback, just as you push back on others.

[Scoots1994]

I didnt agree with the pick but I get the thought process behind it. There was a drop-off in perceived value after the top 3 in that draft. Edwards wasn't available at 2, its not like LaMelo would be a great fit here and he had the possible Lavar headache, so they went with Wiseman. I think Patrick Williams was by far the most GS kind of player in that top 5, but again there was a significant perceived value drop-off after the top 3 guys. So I wouldnt be shocked if they wanted to trade down but didnt get any great returns, so they went with Wiseman with the hope he might workout and if not they can flip him for something else later on.

At least that is what I hope is the thought process. Best case scenario in my opinion is he gets the Javale kind of role and gets about 9 minutes a game and his per 36 stats look great and a team bites on his potential and GS trades him.

Because to me his biggest issues are some of the hardest things to learn. Because of that I just dont see him ever being a big time player in GS, at least by the time we are still seeing prime Steph. Defensive awareness isnt something players learn just over night. This has always been one of, if not his biggest issue. And again he needs to go from all of his basketball life being a high volume low post guy, to learning how to excel on the offensive end in a perimeter ball movement oriented offense.

To me there is a big difference between the Wiseman pick and the Kuminga and Moody picks. Moody I think is a low ceiling player, but a 6'6 3&D player with a 7' wingspan is a clear fit in this team (pretty much any team really). Kuminga was the high ceiling pick, but unlike Wiseman his current fit and long term fit with this team is clear and ideal.

So my hope with the Wiseman pick is, they took him just because of his perceived value around the league. They were willing to give him a shot to see if he works out, but if not they will look to flip him for a better fit (ala D'Angelo Russell).

I think Wiseman was drafted for his fit as well. Kerr has said repeatedly that he would prefer a 7 footer on the floor who can play the game the way he wants. Think a faster Bogut with shooting.

[Scoots1994]

clyde, Kerr is a good coach. I think there is little to question that. Most people can see and acknowledge that. That does NOT mean he's perfect. I think (and have said several times before) that his career as a bench/rotation player has given him odd ideas about how rotations should be done, and that he's strangely rigid about them.

[Duke4life831]

I didnt agree with the pick but I get the thought process behind it. There was a drop-off in perceived value after the top 3 in that draft. Edwards wasn't available at 2, its not like LaMelo would be a great fit here and he had the possible Lavar headache, so they went with Wiseman. I think Patrick Williams was by far the most GS kind of player in that top 5, but again there was a significant perceived value drop-off after the top 3 guys. So I wouldnt be shocked if they wanted to trade down but didnt get any great returns, so they went with Wiseman with the hope he might workout and if not they can flip him for something else later on.

At least that is what I hope is the thought process. Best case scenario in my opinion is he gets the Javale kind of role and gets about 9 minutes a game and his per 36 stats look great and a team bites on his potential and GS trades him.

Because to me his biggest issues are some of the hardest things to learn. Because of that I just dont see him ever being a big time player in GS, at least by the time we are still seeing prime Steph. Defensive awareness isnt something players learn just over night. This has always been one of, if not his biggest issue. And again he needs to go from all of his basketball life being a high volume low post guy, to learning how to excel on the offensive end in a perimeter ball movement oriented offense.

To me there is a big difference between the Wiseman pick and the Kuminga and Moody picks. Moody I think is a low ceiling player, but a 6'6 3&D player with a 7' wingspan is a clear fit in this team (pretty much any team really). Kuminga was the high ceiling pick, but unlike Wiseman his current fit and long term fit with this team is clear and ideal.

So my hope with the Wiseman pick is, they took him just because of his perceived value around the league. They were willing to give him a shot to see if he works out, but if not they will look to flip him for a better fit (ala D'Angelo Russell).

I think Wiseman was drafted for his fit as well. Kerr has said repeatedly that he would prefer a 7 footer on the floor who can play the game the way he wants. Think a faster Bogut with shooting.

That is exactly my point though, if Wiseman was a faster Bogut with shooting I wouldnt be saying Wiseman is a bad fit.

By the time Bogut got to the Warriors he was an elite defensive player. He was also one of the best screen setters and passing bigs in the NBA.

Those are all some of Wiseman's biggest flaws. Wiseman has always been a horrible defender, his spacial awareness defensively is about as bad as it gets. He also isnt a passer in anyway shape or form. He's also never been a consistent shooter either. Look at his shooting distance splits from last year:

10-16ft: 24%
16ft-3p: 38%
3pt: 31%
FT%: 63%

Nothing from that screams a good shooter. And again in high school his jump shot was not a main aspect of his game. His shooting is all based off of potential and not actual production at the moment.

My thing is this, players dont go from horrible defensive awareness to average within a year or two. Most of the time they stay horrible defenders, but the ones that do get better, it usually takes quite sometime. So even say he improves his jumper over the next year or two. The chances of him being a good defender by the time Curry/Klay/Draymond are still the main core of this team are pretty close to nill.

And I just dont see how a score first big who doesnt pass, is a bad defender, and doesnt have a consistent jumper a great fit for this current team and system.

[Scoots1994]

I didnt agree with the pick but I get the thought process behind it. There was a drop-off in perceived value after the top 3 in that draft. Edwards wasn't available at 2, its not like LaMelo would be a great fit here and he had the possible Lavar headache, so they went with Wiseman. I think Patrick Williams was by far the most GS kind of player in that top 5, but again there was a significant perceived value drop-off after the top 3 guys. So I wouldnt be shocked if they wanted to trade down but didnt get any great returns, so they went with Wiseman with the hope he might workout and if not they can flip him for something else later on.

At least that is what I hope is the thought process. Best case scenario in my opinion is he gets the Javale kind of role and gets about 9 minutes a game and his per 36 stats look great and a team bites on his potential and GS trades him.

Because to me his biggest issues are some of the hardest things to learn. Because of that I just dont see him ever being a big time player in GS, at least by the time we are still seeing prime Steph. Defensive awareness isnt something players learn just over night. This has always been one of, if not his biggest issue. And again he needs to go from all of his basketball life being a high volume low post guy, to learning how to excel on the offensive end in a perimeter ball movement oriented offense.

To me there is a big difference between the Wiseman pick and the Kuminga and Moody picks. Moody I think is a low ceiling player, but a 6'6 3&D player with a 7' wingspan is a clear fit in this team (pretty much any team really). Kuminga was the high ceiling pick, but unlike Wiseman his current fit and long term fit with this team is clear and ideal.

So my hope with the Wiseman pick is, they took him just because of his perceived value around the league. They were willing to give him a shot to see if he works out, but if not they will look to flip him for a better fit (ala D'Angelo Russell).

I think Wiseman was drafted for his fit as well. Kerr has said repeatedly that he would prefer a 7 footer on the floor who can play the game the way he wants. Think a faster Bogut with shooting.

That is exactly my point though, if Wiseman was a faster Bogut with shooting I wouldnt be saying Wiseman is a bad fit.

By the time Bogut got to the Warriors he was an elite defensive player. He was also one of the best screen setters and passing bigs in the NBA.

Those are all some of Wiseman's biggest flaws. Wiseman has always been a horrible defender, his spacial awareness defensively is about as bad as it gets. He also isnt a passer in anyway shape or form. He's also never been a consistent shooter either. Look at his shooting distance splits from last year:

10-16ft: 24%
16ft-3p: 38%
3pt: 31%
FT%: 63%

Nothing from that screams a good shooter. And again in high school his jump shot was not a main aspect of his game. His shooting is all based off of potential and not actual production at the moment.

My thing is this, players dont go from horrible defensive awareness to average within a year or two. Most of the time they stay horrible defenders, but the ones that do get better, it usually takes quite sometime. So even say he improves his jumper over the next year or two. The chances of him being a good defender by the time Curry/Klay/Draymond are still the main core of this team are pretty close to nill.

And I just dont see how a score first big who doesnt pass, is a bad defender, and doesnt have a consistent jumper a great fit for this current team and system.

I think the Warriors plan is for Wiseman to get significantly better at those things rather than not improve from where he was as a rookie.

[Duke4life831]

I think Wiseman was drafted for his fit as well. Kerr has said repeatedly that he would prefer a 7 footer on the floor who can play the game the way he wants. Think a faster Bogut with shooting.

That is exactly my point though, if Wiseman was a faster Bogut with shooting I wouldnt be saying Wiseman is a bad fit.

By the time Bogut got to the Warriors he was an elite defensive player. He was also one of the best screen setters and passing bigs in the NBA.

Those are all some of Wiseman's biggest flaws. Wiseman has always been a horrible defender, his spacial awareness defensively is about as bad as it gets. He also isnt a passer in anyway shape or form. He's also never been a consistent shooter either. Look at his shooting distance splits from last year:

10-16ft: 24%
16ft-3p: 38%
3pt: 31%
FT%: 63%

Nothing from that screams a good shooter. And again in high school his jump shot was not a main aspect of his game. His shooting is all based off of potential and not actual production at the moment.

My thing is this, players dont go from horrible defensive awareness to average within a year or two. Most of the time they stay horrible defenders, but the ones that do get better, it usually takes quite sometime. So even say he improves his jumper over the next year or two. The chances of him being a good defender by the time Curry/Klay/Draymond are still the main core of this team are pretty close to nill.

And I just dont see how a score first big who doesnt pass, is a bad defender, and doesnt have a consistent jumper a great fit for this current team and system.

I think the Warriors plan is for Wiseman to get significantly better at those things rather than not improve from where he was as a rookie.

Okay so you didnt read my post then. Ill repeat what I said, the vast majority of players that have horrible defensive awareness usually dont become good defenders and the few that do, it doesnt happen in a year or 2. Most guys who dont have great offensive awareness and passing IQ, usually dont gain that within a year or 2. Most guys who are 63% FT shooters and horrible jump shooting percentages from all areas, dont tend to become good shooters within a year or 2.

Draymond is about to be 32, Steph is about to be 34. These guys dont have 3-4 years to wait around.

Really the only reasonable argument that Wiseman was a good pick and its worth keeping him is to have him for post Curry/Draymond/Klay core. Because unless he has some crazy progression rate that we haven't really seen before, he's not going to help this core out while they're still competing for championships.

And if that is the argument fine. But that isnt the argument Im seeing anyone making. Im seeing people saying they're hoping Wiseman will be a KD like perimeter player. Or Wiseman will be like a Bogut kind of big. Just goes to show really how varying of thoughts people have on what kind of player they wish Wiseman to become, because you cant get any more polar opposite than those two. People seem to be really trying to force Wiseman into these roles that he isnt any good at and not accepting the actual player he currently is.

[wco81]

No point in wringing hands about it now.

But only after 30 games or so, it's hard to deny that Wagner would have helped more this season and possibly the next couple of seasons after this one, because of better shooting.

He may never be the defender that JK is but on the other hand, JK may never reach the higher ceiling either.

Basic things like FT efficiency, ability to hit open jumpers at a decent clip are the things which determine how many minutes they can play JK.

Clearly Wagner would be playable for more minutes right now.

That may change by the end of the season, or in the next couple of seasons.

Or that may never change. If he's a sub 43/32/65 shooter after a couple of seasons, that's a limited role player.

[floppymoose]

I’m not worried about timing when it comes to drafts. Draft for value. Trades are where you think about timing.