Around the NBA IV

[FrigginFalcon]

I can't dispute their impact, but I also cannot place players atop "All Time" lists who made that impact largely by shoving other people out of the way and getting away with it because of their star status. LeFlop and Shaq should have fouled out in the first quarter of every game they played, the way they played. MJ and Kobe could be physical at times, but they relied on skill, speed, and agility, not bulk, brawn, and bullying. Favorable rules and refereeing aside, I can't reward players who prospered by shoving people around in a game that is NOT supposed to involve more than incidental contact. If a defender has legally established position between you and the basket, you need to go AROUND him, and do so FASTER than he can reestablish a new position. Shoving is half of LeFlop's offensive game today, and it was for part of his career at least 90% of Shaq's.

LeFlop is Second Team all-time for me, and Shaq doesn't even make my Third Team -- Shaq is #5 AT BEST all time in the Center slot (behind, in alphabetical order, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Olajuwon, and Russell).

[Impuniti]

So....Irving to the Celtics for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, and 2018 Nets #1 about to go down.

Cavs are infinitely more scary now.

Celtics look to be a year or two away from being that scary, but have potential. Feel like this wasnt a good move for them in the short-term

Infinitely is a huge stretch. I think an issue would be is if they trade TT + pick for something like Cousins, then it could be a gamechanger.

[FNQ]

So....Irving to the Celtics for Thomas, Crowder, Zizic, and 2018 Nets #1 about to go down.

Cavs are infinitely more scary now.

Celtics look to be a year or two away from being that scary, but have potential. Feel like this wasnt a good move for them in the short-term

Infinitely is a huge stretch. I think an issue would be is if they trade TT + pick for something like Cousins, then it could be a gamechanger.

I think they basically just added Crowder (I think a healthy IT brings as much impact as Kyrie currently does) and then have that 1st as a weapon to trade for someone.. yeah, they're scary to me right now. Lots of stuff can still happen before the season starts

[Mylie10]

I'm not scared at the Cavs at all. They are melting before our eyes. They'll be good, and they may beat the Celtics yet again. But I'm Nit more scared of them now...far from it.

[Chris Porter's Hair]

I definitely don't find them infinitely more scary. I think that as bad as Kyrie was on defense, IT is worse, and if they try to play him significant minutes against us, we'll tear him apart. I do think the addition of Crowder is arguably more important. They need solid defenders more than they need scoring, a lesson they seem slow to learn, but Crowder is a step in that direction.

[marthafokker]

If IT is out, they have very little offense outside LeQueen. He will have to play all 48 minutes against us.

[Johnny Bball]

Watch on YouTube

;t=810s&list=PLAzrgbu8gEMLQMUHDrs3bD3RpV-gbH_43&index=7

Maybe you're aware of this youtube series or maybe you aren't. People eat 10 progressively hotter wings while being interviewed. this week its Durant. Not much basketball, just talk.

[Quazza]

Cavs apparently dangling that Nets pick and a player for Boogie

would send an awful message to AD if the Pels accept

[FrigginFalcon]

Cavs apparently dangling that Nets pick and a player for Boogie

would send an awful message to AD if the Pels accept

Depends on the player, I suppose. There are players who might contribute more to the Pelicans roster in the short term, and of course a #1 Pick with the potential to be a very early one could also be a big help in team building.

The issue, really, is who the Cavs have to offer to go along with the pick. Maybe Crowder and the Nets #1, plus the Pelicans own #1 next year could let them put together an interesting group of players in the 20 - 27 yo range.

[ChuckDurn]

Cavs apparently dangling that Nets pick and a player for Boogie

would send an awful message to AD if the Pels accept

Depends on the player, I suppose. There are players who might contribute more to the Pelicans roster in the short term, and of course a #1 Pick with the potential to be a very early one could also be a big help in team building.

The issue, really, is who the Cavs have to offer to go along with the pick. Maybe Crowder and the Nets #1, plus the Pelicans own #1 next year could let them put together an interesting group of players in the 20 - 27 yo range.

I heard it was allegedly Shumpert, which is pretty laughable, and doesn't work straight up. To get the salary to work, Cleveland would also have to add in Frye, or a lot of salary flotsam such as Jefferson, Felder, and Tavares..... none of which would really interest New Orleans, I think.

With Solomon Hill going down with injury, New Orleans has literally no small forwards on their roster, (and is going to be playing Holiday somewhat out-of-position at SG,) and that's not something Cleveland can really provide to them. If they were to consider a deal for Cousins, they would certainly want back, at a minimum level, the Brooklyn pick and a high-level starting SF. That's certainly going to require a third team...... and it's not clear whatsoever how a team could be incented to give up a high-quality SF if they're not getting good assets from Cleveland - a team which basically has no big assets at this point, aside from the Brooklyn pick.

Though something just hit me - want to know what would be a really interesting trade? This one, with the Brooklyn pick going to New Orleans: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y92yrphu

Cousins + Asik (injured - but needed for salary matching) for Love + Jefferson + Brooklyn pick

Obviously, a completely "all in" move that would end Love's challenged time in Cleveland.

Doubtful Cleveland would do it, but that's probably what it would take to get them a chance at Cousins.

[FrigginFalcon]

Cavs apparently dangling that Nets pick and a player for Boogie

would send an awful message to AD if the Pels accept

Depends on the player, I suppose. There are players who might contribute more to the Pelicans roster in the short term, and of course a #1 Pick with the potential to be a very early one could also be a big help in team building.

The issue, really, is who the Cavs have to offer to go along with the pick. Maybe Crowder and the Nets #1, plus the Pelicans own #1 next year could let them put together an interesting group of players in the 20 - 27 yo range.

I heard it was allegedly Shumpert, which is pretty laughable, and doesn't work straight up. To get the salary to work, Cleveland would also have to add in Frye, or a lot of salary flotsam such as Jefferson, Felder, and Tavares..... none of which would really interest New Orleans, I think.

With Solomon Hill going down with injury, New Orleans has literally no small forwards on their roster, (and is going to be playing Holiday somewhat out-of-position at SG,) and that's not something Cleveland can really provide to them. If they were to consider a deal for Cousins, they would certainly want back, at a minimum level, the Brooklyn pick and a high-level starting SF. That's certainly going to require a third team...... and it's not clear whatsoever how a team could be incented to give up a high-quality SF if they're not getting good assets from Cleveland - a team which basically has no big assets at this point, aside from the Brooklyn pick.

Though something just hit me - want to know what would be a really interesting trade? This one, with the Brooklyn pick going to New Orleans: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y92yrphu

Cousins + Asik (injured - but needed for salary matching) for Love + Jefferson + Brooklyn pick

Obviously, a completely "all in" move that would end Love's challenged time in Cleveland.

Doubtful Cleveland would do it, but that's probably what it would take to get them a chance at Cousins.

I thought about Love, but assumed it was a no-go for the Cavs. With Kyrie gone and IT doubtful, I don't see how they could part with Love in a deal like that.

[shazam_guy]

Shaq doesn't even make my Third Team -- Shaq is #5 AT BEST all time in the Center slot (behind, in alphabetical order, Chamberlain, Jabbar, Olajuwon, and Russell).

With his size, Shaq should have averaged 20 rebounds a game for his career. He didn't seem to work very hard at rebounding, either. Bill Russell (who I also saw play) would have made him look like an idiot.

[andrewww]

Ya that's a tough argument. Kobe wasn't the alpha for a couple of those wins, and LeBron has always been the alpha. There's an argument to be made that his Miami teams should have done better and 'well they're ironing out chemistry' isn't a good enough excuse. But right now it's just not a good enough excuse to put him above MJ.

The Kobe v. LeBron debate is dead. It's LeBallz.

Beta's don't average 30 PPG in a 15-1 playoff run while having the best "impact stats" in that post season of any player.

Its like saying Curry has never been the alpha on this current GSW team because he hasnt won a FMVP (yet). Everyone knows Curry and KD are the best players on this team, and two of the best in the world.

[and1GS]

Ya that's a tough argument. Kobe wasn't the alpha for a couple of those wins, and LeBron has always been the alpha. There's an argument to be made that his Miami teams should have done better and 'well they're ironing out chemistry' isn't a good enough excuse. But right now it's just not a good enough excuse to put him above MJ.

The Kobe v. LeBron debate is dead. It's LeBallz.

Beta's don't average 30 PPG in a 15-1 playoff run while having the best "impact stats" in that post season of any player.

Its like saying Curry has never been the alpha on this current GSW team because he hasnt won a FMVP (yet). Everyone knows Curry and KD are the best players on this team, and two of the best in the world.

lol way to leave out the finals, the only part of the playoffs that matters.

In those finals Kobe put up 25/8/6. Impressive...but Shaq averaged 33/16/5 with 3.4 bpg in the biggest WTF stat line I've seen in my lifetime. Also, if you'd watched those finals live the Lakers won thanks to Shaq's total annihilation of Dikembe...THE premier defensive center.

But ya keep taking screenshots from Google Images and telling me about how Kobe's always been the alpha. I can do the same thing...

[andrewww]

Ya that's a tough argument. Kobe wasn't the alpha for a couple of those wins, and LeBron has always been the alpha. There's an argument to be made that his Miami teams should have done better and 'well they're ironing out chemistry' isn't a good enough excuse. But right now it's just not a good enough excuse to put him above MJ.

The Kobe v. LeBron debate is dead. It's LeBallz.

Beta's don't average 30 PPG in a 15-1 playoff run while having the best "impact stats" in that post season of any player.

Its like saying Curry has never been the alpha on this current GSW team because he hasnt won a FMVP (yet). Everyone knows Curry and KD are the best players on this team, and two of the best in the world.

lol way to leave out the finals, the only part of the playoffs that matters.

In those finals Kobe put up 25/8/6. Impressive...but Shaq averaged 33/16/5 with 3.4 bpg in the biggest WTF stat line I've seen in my lifetime. Also, if you'd watched those finals live the Lakers won thanks to Shaq's total annihilation of Dikembe...THE premier defensive center.

But ya keep taking screenshots from Google Images and telling me about how Kobe's always been the alpha. I can do the same thing...

The real Finals were in the west, and based on your logic Curry has been the beta all along with GSW based on your lack of logic. I didnt say he was always the alpha, its a dumb narrative to use quite frankly. If MJ and Shaq were on the same team does that mean one of them is the beta since there can only be one FMVP? #idiotlogic

[and1GS]

Beta's don't average 30 PPG in a 15-1 playoff run while having the best "impact stats" in that post season of any player.

Its like saying Curry has never been the alpha on this current GSW team because he hasnt won a FMVP (yet). Everyone knows Curry and KD are the best players on this team, and two of the best in the world.

lol way to leave out the finals, the only part of the playoffs that matters.

In those finals Kobe put up 25/8/6. Impressive...but Shaq averaged 33/16/5 with 3.4 bpg in the biggest WTF stat line I've seen in my lifetime. Also, if you'd watched those finals live the Lakers won thanks to Shaq's total annihilation of Dikembe...THE premier defensive center.

But ya keep taking screenshots from Google Images and telling me about how Kobe's always been the alpha. I can do the same thing...

The real Finals were in the west, and based on your logic Curry has been the beta all along with GSW based on your lack of logic. I didnt say he was always the alpha, its a dumb narrative to use quite frankly. If MJ and Shaq were on the same team does that mean one of them is the beta since there can only be one FMVP? #idiotlogic

IDK why you're prattling on about finals MVP when i've never mentioned it. By every statistical measure it's LeBron>Kobe. Kobe has more rings, LeBron more everything else. It's a silly to think that being 'the guy' doesn't bring an extra layer of pressure+expectation. Shaq was 'the guy' for most of the time he was in LA, not Kobe and that alleviated pressure on him for a few years. it's undeniable that the pressure on Steph has gone waaaay down since KD came to town. IN GOAT conversations, that matters.

Anyways, good to see you gave up trying to make coherent points. Stop by again soon!

[andrewww]

lol way to leave out the finals, the only part of the playoffs that matters.

In those finals Kobe put up 25/8/6. Impressive...but Shaq averaged 33/16/5 with 3.4 bpg in the biggest WTF stat line I've seen in my lifetime. Also, if you'd watched those finals live the Lakers won thanks to Shaq's total annihilation of Dikembe...THE premier defensive center.

But ya keep taking screenshots from Google Images and telling me about how Kobe's always been the alpha. I can do the same thing...

The real Finals were in the west, and based on your logic Curry has been the beta all along with GSW based on your lack of logic. I didnt say he was always the alpha, its a dumb narrative to use quite frankly. If MJ and Shaq were on the same team does that mean one of them is the beta since there can only be one FMVP? #idiotlogic

IDK why you're prattling on about finals MVP when i've never mentioned it. By every statistical measure it's LeBron>Kobe. Kobe has more rings, LeBron more everything else. It's a silly to think that being 'the guy' doesn't bring an extra layer of pressure+expectation. Shaq was 'the guy' for most of the time he was in LA, not Kobe and that alleviated pressure on him for a few years. it's undeniable that the pressure on Steph has gone waaaay down since KD came to town. IN GOAT conversations, that matters.

Anyways, good to see you gave up trying to make coherent points. Stop by again soon!

See, you cant even answer a question I asked you not once but twice. Based on your logic, any team can only have one alpha correct? I guess Steph has never been the guy for GSW since he hasnt won FMVP yet much like Kobe when Shaq won them. Why dodge the question? Its because you're contradicting yourself and probably werent even old enough to have watched the 3peat Lakers back then. But hey if you think Kobe was just a Robin all the more power to you. Only a fool would make such a declaration. I didnt even bring up Lebron why you bringing him up? This isnt a Kobe vs Lebron comparison #idiot

[and1GS]

The real Finals were in the west, and based on your logic Curry has been the beta all along with GSW based on your lack of logic. I didnt say he was always the alpha, its a dumb narrative to use quite frankly. If MJ and Shaq were on the same team does that mean one of them is the beta since there can only be one FMVP? #idiotlogic

IDK why you're prattling on about finals MVP when i've never mentioned it. By every statistical measure it's LeBron>Kobe. Kobe has more rings, LeBron more everything else. It's a silly to think that being 'the guy' doesn't bring an extra layer of pressure+expectation. Shaq was 'the guy' for most of the time he was in LA, not Kobe and that alleviated pressure on him for a few years. it's undeniable that the pressure on Steph has gone waaaay down since KD came to town. IN GOAT conversations, that matters.

Anyways, good to see you gave up trying to make coherent points. Stop by again soon!

See, you cant even answer a question I asked you not once but twice. Based on your logic, any team can only have one alpha correct? I guess Steph has never been the guy for GSW since he hasnt won FMVP yet much like Kobe when Shaq won them. Why dodge the question? Its because you're contradicting yourself and probably werent even old enough to have watched the 3peat Lakers back then. But hey if you think Kobe was just a Robin all the more power to you. Only a fool would make such a declaration. I didnt even bring up Lebron why you bringing him up? This isnt a Kobe vs Lebron comparison #idiot

lol bruh, this entire chain was started by a conversation around Kobe v. LeBron. You're a trip, and this will be my last reply to you, you child.

[andrewww]

IDK why you're prattling on about finals MVP when i've never mentioned it. By every statistical measure it's LeBron>Kobe. Kobe has more rings, LeBron more everything else. It's a silly to think that being 'the guy' doesn't bring an extra layer of pressure+expectation. Shaq was 'the guy' for most of the time he was in LA, not Kobe and that alleviated pressure on him for a few years. it's undeniable that the pressure on Steph has gone waaaay down since KD came to town. IN GOAT conversations, that matters.

Anyways, good to see you gave up trying to make coherent points. Stop by again soon!

See, you cant even answer a question I asked you not once but twice. Based on your logic, any team can only have one alpha correct? I guess Steph has never been the guy for GSW since he hasnt won FMVP yet much like Kobe when Shaq won them. Why dodge the question? Its because you're contradicting yourself and probably werent even old enough to have watched the 3peat Lakers back then. But hey if you think Kobe was just a Robin all the more power to you. Only a fool would make such a declaration. I didnt even bring up Lebron why you bringing him up? This isnt a Kobe vs Lebron comparison #idiot

lol bruh, this entire chain was started by a conversation around Kobe v. LeBron. You're a trip, and this will be my last reply to you, you child.

Not really, never did I mention Kobe vs Lebron once and anyone with a brain can see that. Having said that, if you'd like to resort to name calling please continue and have a great day

You called him an idiot just a few posts above, starting the name calling. Both of you knock it off. Don't make me moderate. - CPH

[Mylie10]

lol