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TPE Trade Target Watch

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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#261 » by xdrta+ » Wed Aug 19, 2020 7:32 pm

ILOVEIT wrote:
thinkingwarriors wrote:
DAWill1128 wrote:
I think a sign and trade with the TPE is our way to get one. The part that hurts the most is if Toronto moves off either it means they have enough faith in former Warrior Boucher. Boucher looks good, he’s fast end to end, blocks shots, and can hit a 3. Boucher looks like a lesser mans Ibaka which is why I think Toronto may opt to go with Gasol. But Ibaka is younger so I think it will be a tough choice for Massai.


Sign and trades are out because we're already over the apron which is the hard cap threshold. So if we want Ibaka or Gasol, it's going to have to be at the roughly $6mil taxpayer MLE.


I'm confused... Warriors can bring in a FA using the 17mil TPE but they can't TRADE the TPE and a draft pick for a resigned player? Is it the "TRADING" while over the apron that is prohibited?

Regardless, both Ibaka and Gasol are FA this coming year. So if let go, they could simply decide to join the Warriors at 17mil? Would that work?


The $17M trade exception can't be used to sign a free agent. It's essentially the completion of the Iguodala trade, which is considered a non-simultaneous trade. The exception can be used to complete that trade. It can't be traded, but rather to receive salary, in a trade, up to $17M without sending any more salary out (because they already sent that much salary out with Iguodala.)
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#262 » by GQ Hot Dog » Wed Aug 19, 2020 8:12 pm

ILOVEIT wrote:
thinkingwarriors wrote:
DAWill1128 wrote:
I think a sign and trade with the TPE is our way to get one. The part that hurts the most is if Toronto moves off either it means they have enough faith in former Warrior Boucher. Boucher looks good, he’s fast end to end, blocks shots, and can hit a 3. Boucher looks like a lesser mans Ibaka which is why I think Toronto may opt to go with Gasol. But Ibaka is younger so I think it will be a tough choice for Massai.


Sign and trades are out because we're already over the apron which is the hard cap threshold. So if we want Ibaka or Gasol, it's going to have to be at the roughly $6mil taxpayer MLE.


I'm confused... Warriors can bring in a FA using the 17mil TPE but they can't TRADE the TPE and a draft pick for a resigned player? Is it the "TRADING" while over the apron that is prohibited?

Regardless, both Ibaka and Gasol are FA this coming year. So if let go, they could simply decide to join the Warriors at 17mil? Would that work?


If a sign-and-trade could be done using the TPE that would keep the team salary beneath the apron, the TPE could be used in that way. Think about the KD sign-and-trade for D'lo. We had to trade Iguodala to make it legal because shedding his salary allowed us to remain under the apron. Sign-and-trades trigger the hard cap which means we can't go above the apron under any circumstances.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#263 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:30 am

xdrta+ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:
thinkingwarriors wrote:
Sign and trades are out because we're already over the apron which is the hard cap threshold. So if we want Ibaka or Gasol, it's going to have to be at the roughly $6mil taxpayer MLE.


I'm confused... Warriors can bring in a FA using the 17mil TPE but they can't TRADE the TPE and a draft pick for a resigned player? Is it the "TRADING" while over the apron that is prohibited?

Regardless, both Ibaka and Gasol are FA this coming year. So if let go, they could simply decide to join the Warriors at 17mil? Would that work?


The $17M trade exception can't be used to sign a free agent. It's essentially the completion of the Iguodala trade, which is considered a non-simultaneous trade. The exception can be used to complete that trade. It can't be traded, but rather to receive salary, in a trade, up to $17M without sending any more salary out (because they already sent that much salary out with Iguodala.)


From an NBC sports article ...

Below seems to suggest that the Warriors can acquire any free agent at any amount not to exceed 17.2M. Simple? Sounds like trades are off the table because of the non-simultaneous nature....but not because of an apron etc...
The article below suggests that the Warriors could use the full amount but it would but them into an increased tax payers status/burden.

Give all that....then makes sense that Warriors wait to see who is willing to join the team => 17.2. Period.

"In theory, the Warriors could acquire any NBA player using the $17.2 million TPE whose 2020-21 salary is equal or lesser to that value. That's no small chunk of change, so Golden State should be able to get involved with any high-salaried players that are made available on the trade market. Given the expected drop in league revenue due to the pandemic, it wouldn't be surprising if teams made more of those types of players available so as to lower tax payments, etc."

"Considering the Warriors already are projected to be a tax-paying team, using the full value of the $17.2 million TPE could greatly increase their tax payments. However, that might be necessary if Golden State is going to compete for the championship next season."
Looking forward to 2073....bye bye pouting moody Durant...hello again the 73 win style of hoops!
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#264 » by ShayDee » Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:54 am

ILOVEIT wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:
I'm confused... Warriors can bring in a FA using the 17mil TPE but they can't TRADE the TPE and a draft pick for a resigned player? Is it the "TRADING" while over the apron that is prohibited?

Regardless, both Ibaka and Gasol are FA this coming year. So if let go, they could simply decide to join the Warriors at 17mil? Would that work?


The $17M trade exception can't be used to sign a free agent. It's essentially the completion of the Iguodala trade, which is considered a non-simultaneous trade. The exception can be used to complete that trade. It can't be traded, but rather to receive salary, in a trade, up to $17M without sending any more salary out (because they already sent that much salary out with Iguodala.)


From an NBC sports article ...

Below seems to suggest that the Warriors can acquire any free agent at any amount not to exceed 17.2M. Simple? Sounds like trades are off the table because of the non-simultaneous nature....but not because of an apron etc...
The article below suggests that the Warriors could use the full amount but it would but them into an increased tax payers status/burden.

Give all that....then makes sense that Warriors wait to see who is willing to join the team => 17.2. Period.

"In theory, the Warriors could acquire any NBA player using the $17.2 million TPE whose 2020-21 salary is equal or lesser to that value. That's no small chunk of change, so Golden State should be able to get involved with any high-salaried players that are made available on the trade market. Given the expected drop in league revenue due to the pandemic, it wouldn't be surprising if teams made more of those types of players available so as to lower tax payments, etc."

"Considering the Warriors already are projected to be a tax-paying team, using the full value of the $17.2 million TPE could greatly increase their tax payments. However, that might be necessary if Golden State is going to compete for the championship next season."


You can't sign a player above minimum over the cap. TPE can only be used in a trade. So we can in theory use it in a sign and trade, but we are a team already above luxury tax and pushing apron next season with top 5 pick + mle

Image

The exception allows a team to trade for any player, or number of players, as long their collective incoming salary does not exceed a set amount, which is based on whether if the team pays the luxury tax after the trade, and the collective outgoing (of the players the team is trading away) salary.


The team receiving the player cannot have a payroll that exceeds the so-called "apron"—a designated level above the NBA luxury tax threshold—after the trade. A team with a payroll above the apron can only receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the transaction drops that team's payroll below the apron. Once the transaction is complete, the team receiving the player is hard capped at the apron for the entire season.
From wiki

If we want to compete with this roster as constructed, we cannot be hard capped
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#265 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:24 am

ShayDee wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
The $17M trade exception can't be used to sign a free agent. It's essentially the completion of the Iguodala trade, which is considered a non-simultaneous trade. The exception can be used to complete that trade. It can't be traded, but rather to receive salary, in a trade, up to $17M without sending any more salary out (because they already sent that much salary out with Iguodala.)


From an NBC sports article ...

Below seems to suggest that the Warriors can acquire any free agent at any amount not to exceed 17.2M. Simple? Sounds like trades are off the table because of the non-simultaneous nature....but not because of an apron etc...
The article below suggests that the Warriors could use the full amount but it would but them into an increased tax payers status/burden.

Give all that....then makes sense that Warriors wait to see who is willing to join the team => 17.2. Period.

"In theory, the Warriors could acquire any NBA player using the $17.2 million TPE whose 2020-21 salary is equal or lesser to that value. That's no small chunk of change, so Golden State should be able to get involved with any high-salaried players that are made available on the trade market. Given the expected drop in league revenue due to the pandemic, it wouldn't be surprising if teams made more of those types of players available so as to lower tax payments, etc."

"Considering the Warriors already are projected to be a tax-paying team, using the full value of the $17.2 million TPE could greatly increase their tax payments. However, that might be necessary if Golden State is going to compete for the championship next season."


You can't sign a player above minimum over the cap. TPE can only be used in a trade. So we can in theory use it in a sign and trade, but we are a team already above luxury tax and pushing apron next season with top 5 pick + mle

Image

The exception allows a team to trade for any player, or number of players, as long their collective incoming salary does not exceed a set amount, which is based on whether if the team pays the luxury tax after the trade, and the collective outgoing (of the players the team is trading away) salary.


The team receiving the player cannot have a payroll that exceeds the so-called "apron"—a designated level above the NBA luxury tax threshold—after the trade. A team with a payroll above the apron can only receive a player in a sign-and-trade if the transaction drops that team's payroll below the apron. Once the transaction is complete, the team receiving the player is hard capped at the apron for the entire season.
From wiki

If we want to compete with this roster as constructed, we cannot be hard capped


Every team over the cap can sign players for more than the vet minimum, they just need to fit within the MLE or the TPMLE depending. Once that money is gone it's only vet minimums.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#266 » by xdrta+ » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:46 am

ILOVEIT wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:
I'm confused... Warriors can bring in a FA using the 17mil TPE but they can't TRADE the TPE and a draft pick for a resigned player? Is it the "TRADING" while over the apron that is prohibited?

Regardless, both Ibaka and Gasol are FA this coming year. So if let go, they could simply decide to join the Warriors at 17mil? Would that work?


The $17M trade exception can't be used to sign a free agent. It's essentially the completion of the Iguodala trade, which is considered a non-simultaneous trade. The exception can be used to complete that trade. It can't be traded, but rather to receive salary, in a trade, up to $17M without sending any more salary out (because they already sent that much salary out with Iguodala.)


From an NBC sports article ...

Below seems to suggest that the Warriors can acquire any free agent at any amount not to exceed 17.2M. Simple? Sounds like trades are off the table because of the non-simultaneous nature....but not because of an apron etc...
The article below suggests that the Warriors could use the full amount but it would but them into an increased tax payers status/burden.

Give all that....then makes sense that Warriors wait to see who is willing to join the team => 17.2. Period.

"In theory, the Warriors could acquire any NBA player using the $17.2 million TPE whose 2020-21 salary is equal or lesser to that value. That's no small chunk of change, so Golden State should be able to get involved with any high-salaried players that are made available on the trade market. Given the expected drop in league revenue due to the pandemic, it wouldn't be surprising if teams made more of those types of players available so as to lower tax payments, etc."

"Considering the Warriors already are projected to be a tax-paying team, using the full value of the $17.2 million TPE could greatly increase their tax payments. However, that might be necessary if Golden State is going to compete for the championship next season."


I'm not sure what you think that article shows. As stated, the trade exception can only be used in a trade. It could be used in a S&T, but the Warrior payroll is too high. The rules for a S&T are separate, and have nothing to do with the trade exception. The line for a S&T last year was about $139M--above that and you couldn't receive a player in a S&T. This year it will probably be lower.
The Warriors guaranteed contracts for next year are close to that already, and the level must be below that after the S&T. So, that's out. They can use the TE for a trade, by trading draft picks, no salary, probably with a team that wants to dump salary. So that's what they need to do.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#267 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:34 am

Thanks for the help on that...appreciated all.
Looking forward to 2073....bye bye pouting moody Durant...hello again the 73 win style of hoops!
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#268 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:43 am

Helpful link in terms of Warriors Apron and Hard cap situation

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/

Anyone know if the Warrior players, even if they wanted to, could they take less per year and stretch out the contracts AFTER the contracts are initiated?

For example, could Curry and Myers agree to cut his yearly to 30 Million and add more years?
Looking forward to 2073....bye bye pouting moody Durant...hello again the 73 win style of hoops!
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#269 » by HiRez » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:55 am

ILOVEIT wrote:Golden State should be able to get involved with any high-salaried players that are made available on the trade market.

Key phrase in bold. But there should be a decent selection of tradeable players who fit into $17M or less so I'm not worried about it. It's a good asset and they'll put it to good use. I would imagine a lot of players around the league would like to come join the Dubs for a year with a refreshed Steph, Klay, and Draymond. If they don't trade the pick and find a contributor in the draft, get someone decent with the TPE, keep developing Paschall, Poole (pray), and Smailagic (pray more), and get a vet or two on min contracts, they'll be in pretty good shape.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#270 » by xdrta+ » Thu Aug 20, 2020 5:01 am

ILOVEIT wrote:Helpful link in terms of Warriors Apron and Hard cap situation

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/

Anyone know if the Warrior players, even if they wanted to, could they take less per year and stretch out the contracts AFTER the contracts are initiated?

For example, could Curry and Myers agree to cut his yearly to 30 Million and add more years?


Simple answer, no. In special circumstances contracts can be re-negotiated, but only increased, never decreased. Even then, a team must be under the cap to do it, and not exceed the cap.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#271 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:49 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:Helpful link in terms of Warriors Apron and Hard cap situation

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/

Anyone know if the Warrior players, even if they wanted to, could they take less per year and stretch out the contracts AFTER the contracts are initiated?

For example, could Curry and Myers agree to cut his yearly to 30 Million and add more years?


Simple answer, no. In special circumstances contracts can be re-negotiated, but only increased, never decreased. Even then, a team must be under the cap to do it, and not exceed the cap.


Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#272 » by xdrta+ » Thu Aug 20, 2020 4:17 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:Helpful link in terms of Warriors Apron and Hard cap situation

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/golden-state-warriors/cap/

Anyone know if the Warrior players, even if they wanted to, could they take less per year and stretch out the contracts AFTER the contracts are initiated?

For example, could Curry and Myers agree to cut his yearly to 30 Million and add more years?


Simple answer, no. In special circumstances contracts can be re-negotiated, but only increased, never decreased. Even then, a team must be under the cap to do it, and not exceed the cap.


Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#273 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:23 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
Simple answer, no. In special circumstances contracts can be re-negotiated, but only increased, never decreased. Even then, a team must be under the cap to do it, and not exceed the cap.


Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.


I think I've only ever heard it happening for injured vets toward the end of their career who the team wants to keep around or to be seen as being "good" to the fan favorite player.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#274 » by wco81 » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:38 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
Simple answer, no. In special circumstances contracts can be re-negotiated, but only increased, never decreased. Even then, a team must be under the cap to do it, and not exceed the cap.


Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.



What happens at the end of a contract? For instance, after the 2021-2022 season, Curry will be UFA again, coming off his super max.

He will be 34 years old.

Who knows if he's still all-star or all-NBA level or how durable he would be at that point.

Or whether the Warriors would still be competitive going into the 2022-23 season.

Could he give the Warriors a steep discount, which would free a lot fo cap space?

Instead of a $45 million/year deal or even greater, let's say he settles for $20-25 million a year. Does that open up $25 million in cap space? Or luxury tax relief, I suppose.

That would be more than a 50% salary cut for him.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#275 » by xdrta+ » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:41 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.


I think I've only ever heard it happening for injured vets toward the end of their career who the team wants to keep around or to be seen as being "good" to the fan favorite player.


The most recent one I remember was a few years ago when Philly increased Covington's salary from about $2M to about $16M. They extended him at the same time, and decreased his first year of the extension to preserve cap space. The fact that you need cap space to renegotiate helps keep them rare.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#276 » by xdrta+ » Thu Aug 20, 2020 7:43 pm

wco81 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.



What happens at the end of a contract? For instance, after the 2021-2022 season, Curry will be UFA again, coming off his super max.

He will be 34 years old.

Who knows if he's still all-star or all-NBA level or how durable he would be at that point.

Or whether the Warriors would still be competitive going into the 2022-23 season.

Could he give the Warriors a steep discount, which would free a lot fo cap space?

Instead of a $45 million/year deal or even greater, let's say he settles for $20-25 million a year. Does that open up $25 million in cap space? Or luxury tax relief, I suppose.

That would be more than a 50% salary cut for him.


An unrestricted free agent is just that, unrestricted. He can sign for anything from the minimum to the maximum.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#277 » by ShayDee » Thu Aug 20, 2020 9:18 pm

wco81 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.



What happens at the end of a contract? For instance, after the 2021-2022 season, Curry will be UFA again, coming off his super max.

He will be 34 years old.

Who knows if he's still all-star or all-NBA level or how durable he would be at that point.

Or whether the Warriors would still be competitive going into the 2022-23 season.

Could he give the Warriors a steep discount, which would free a lot fo cap space?

Instead of a $45 million/year deal or even greater, let's say he settles for $20-25 million a year. Does that open up $25 million in cap space? Or luxury tax relief, I suppose.

That would be more than a 50% salary cut for him.


No way Steph taking pay cut. I used to believe he would help this team like 2 years ago but after he already took less when he was younger, Klay got maxed, Dray got more than he should, CP3 not taking pay cut, Lebron not taking a cut, all the super maxes in the league atm, Dame making 54 mil at 35 you think he doesn't want to be a billionaire? I think he will sign another super max for like 3 years with a P/O last year and if GS don't max him someone else will
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#278 » by ChuckDurn » Thu Aug 20, 2020 10:39 pm

wco81 wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Is there a provision for adding years but only if the money increases? Or am I thinking of the NFL?


Yes, a contract can be renegotiated and extended at the same time, but the extension doesn't have to increase. The rule is that in the first year of the extension, the salary may not decrease by more than 40% from the last season before the extension (after it is renegotiated.) Renegotiations are rare, by design, I guess.



What happens at the end of a contract? For instance, after the 2021-2022 season, Curry will be UFA again, coming off his super max.

He will be 34 years old.

Who knows if he's still all-star or all-NBA level or how durable he would be at that point.

Or whether the Warriors would still be competitive going into the 2022-23 season.

Could he give the Warriors a steep discount, which would free a lot fo cap space?

Instead of a $45 million/year deal or even greater, let's say he settles for $20-25 million a year. Does that open up $25 million in cap space? Or luxury tax relief, I suppose.

That would be more than a 50% salary cut for him.

For all the “he won’t do that” discussion, there’s huge precedence for this. The last 4 years of Tim Duncan’s playing career (covering from the 2012-13 to 2015-16 season), his salaries were $9.6M, $10.4, $10.0, and $5.0M/year (after being over $20M for the years leading up to then). He was an All-Star 2 of those 4 years. He definitely took less money to help the team try to have a good roster, for multiple years.

Similarly, Manu Ginobili took big pay cuts in the second half of his career. In 2013-14, he dropped from a salary of $14M/year to $7.5M/year, while still very productive. The next 4 years, he made $7.0M, $2.8M, $16M, and $2.5M before retiring. (I suspect the $16M was a “make up” for the preceding year.

So it’s not out of the question or unprecedented for a highly-paid start to take way less than market value as they hand the team off to the next group.
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#279 » by ILOVEIT » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:28 pm

Well not likely. But I really could see the core of this team all taking a hair cut or delaying compensation in order to fit in a star. There is something sort of new age millennial about this team. I mean if hey could bring Giannis if they each took 7 mil less over the next 3 years....guaranteeing them 3 more chips?

Again...pipe dream but...fun to consider :)
Looking forward to 2073....bye bye pouting moody Durant...hello again the 73 win style of hoops!
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Re: TPE Trade Target Watch 

Post#280 » by xdrta+ » Fri Aug 21, 2020 4:45 pm

ILOVEIT wrote:Well not likely. But I really could see the core of this team all taking a hair cut or delaying compensation in order to fit in a star. There is something sort of new age millennial about this team. I mean if hey could bring Giannis if they each took 7 mil less over the next 3 years....guaranteeing them 3 more chips?

Again...pipe dream but...fun to consider :)


Well, Klay and Draymond's contracts go through 2024, so you're talking about four years down the road.

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