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Would Warriors have cap space if...

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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#21 » by azwfan » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:50 am

clyde21 wrote:
azwfan wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
we'll see, honestly I'd rather have someone like Winslow today on the roster than Wiggins, especially at his price point, and time will tell what will happen to the picks

So you would have rather kept Iguodala and the 2024 1st? Cause we didn't have a Jae Crowder to get Winslow.

You are aware that Memphis gave up more than Iguodala to get Winslow - right? They also gave up Crowder. And Crowder played close to 30mpg for Miami, while Iguodala played more like 20mpg. I think its safe to say it was more Crowder for Winslow than Iguodala for Winslow. The Iguodala part was more or less filler for taking Waiters' contract.


that had nothing to do with the Iggy deal, Memphis threw in Crowder to unload the Hill contract, it was a salary dump/match. the meat of bones of the trade was Winslow for Iggy.

So the guy who played significantly more minutes was the throw in? Doubtful. Hill was an expiring contract. Waiters and James Johnson were the contracts being unloaded. So yeah, we could have gotten one of them for Iguodala, big whoop!
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#22 » by clyde21 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:52 am

azwfan wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
azwfan wrote:So you would have rather kept Iguodala and the 2024 1st? Cause we didn't have a Jae Crowder to get Winslow.

You are aware that Memphis gave up more than Iguodala to get Winslow - right? They also gave up Crowder. And Crowder played close to 30mpg for Miami, while Iguodala played more like 20mpg. I think its safe to say it was more Crowder for Winslow than Iguodala for Winslow. The Iguodala part was more or less filler for taking Waiters' contract.


that had nothing to do with the Iggy deal, Memphis threw in Crowder to unload the Hill contract, it was a salary dump/match. the meat of bones of the trade was Winslow for Iggy.

So the guy who played significantly more minutes was the throw in? Doubtful. Hill was an expiring contract. Waiters and James Johnson were the contracts being unloaded. So yeah, we could have gotten one of them for Iguodala, big whoop!


any one not named Iggy / Winslow was a throw in.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#23 » by azwfan » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:13 am

clyde21 wrote:
azwfan wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
that had nothing to do with the Iggy deal, Memphis threw in Crowder to unload the Hill contract, it was a salary dump/match. the meat of bones of the trade was Winslow for Iggy.

So the guy who played significantly more minutes was the throw in? Doubtful. Hill was an expiring contract. Waiters and James Johnson were the contracts being unloaded. So yeah, we could have gotten one of them for Iguodala, big whoop!


any one not named Iggy / Winslow was a throw in.

Keep saying it over and over and eventually you’ll believe it.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#24 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 19, 2020 8:31 pm

clyde21 wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
clyde21 wrote:pretty straight forward, let Durant leave, flip Iguodala at the deadline and keep the 2024 pick.

we didn't HAVE to trade for Dlo.


If Durant leaves with nothing coming back that salary slot is gone. That has a lot of potential value that you seem to be dismissing.

I would have rather kept the 2024 pick too, but it had to cost something to keep that salary slot.


i don't care about the salary slot, I care about the actual asset, Winslow at 12 mil a yr is an infinitely more valuable asset than Wiggins at 30 mil a pop


You don't know what "infinitely" means. Winslow is worth more than just a salary slot, but because of those deals the Warriors can add $50M in player salary without touching the core. If they let KD walk and just added Winslow for Iggy they would have far less flexibility now and while Winslow may be a marginally better player than Wiggins thus far we don't know that it will stay that way. The flexibility is more important than Winslow.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#25 » by ILOVEIT » Sat Jun 20, 2020 9:38 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
If Durant leaves with nothing coming back that salary slot is gone. That has a lot of potential value that you seem to be dismissing.

I would have rather kept the 2024 pick too, but it had to cost something to keep that salary slot.


i don't care about the salary slot, I care about the actual asset, Winslow at 12 mil a yr is an infinitely more valuable asset than Wiggins at 30 mil a pop


You don't know what "infinitely" means. Winslow is worth more than just a salary slot, but because of those deals the Warriors can add $50M in player salary without touching the core. If they let KD walk and just added Winslow for Iggy they would have far less flexibility now and while Winslow may be a marginally better player than Wiggins thus far we don't know that it will stay that way. The flexibility is more important than Winslow.


That's the bottom line IMO. "having the big salary slot". Warriors got a first round pick AND they stayed viable for bringing a big name. Keep flexibility without having to include CORE players makes this a very good move (okay no masterful ;). Warriors have assets so they can ADD. Worse case, Wiggins stays and they have enough to get them another chip (assuming they) use the MLE, TPE and draft decently.
Looking forward to 2073....bye bye pouting moody Durant...hello again the 73 win style of hoops!
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#26 » by giberish » Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:29 am

ILOVEIT wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
clyde21 wrote:
i don't care about the salary slot, I care about the actual asset, Winslow at 12 mil a yr is an infinitely more valuable asset than Wiggins at 30 mil a pop


You don't know what "infinitely" means. Winslow is worth more than just a salary slot, but because of those deals the Warriors can add $50M in player salary without touching the core. If they let KD walk and just added Winslow for Iggy they would have far less flexibility now and while Winslow may be a marginally better player than Wiggins thus far we don't know that it will stay that way. The flexibility is more important than Winslow.


That's the bottom line IMO. "having the big salary slot". Warriors got a first round pick AND they stayed viable for bringing a big name. Keep flexibility without having to include CORE players makes this a very good move (okay no masterful ;). Warriors have assets so they can ADD. Worse case, Wiggins stays and they have enough to get them another chip (assuming they) use the MLE, TPE and draft decently.


That huge salary slot may be meaningless. To really use it the Warriors would have to commit to paying huge luxury tax bills- probably for multiple years. Like $80-100M next year and even more the year after. And that's before any covid adjustments making things worse. It's easy to say that the owners will set new luxury tax records for a team that would be a title contender but probably not a favorite.

Without that it's a slightly better pick and Wiggins (making star money for something like 4th to 8th man performance) vs a slightly worse pick and whatever Iggy gets traded for midseason (not Winslow directly based on the Memphis deal but someone from somebody) - probably keep Spellman in that scenario as well.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#27 » by Scoots1994 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:11 pm

giberish wrote:That huge salary slot may be meaningless. To really use it the Warriors would have to commit to paying huge luxury tax bills- probably for multiple years. Like $80-100M next year and even more the year after. And that's before any covid adjustments making things worse. It's easy to say that the owners will set new luxury tax records for a team that would be a title contender but probably not a favorite.

Without that it's a slightly better pick and Wiggins (making star money for something like 4th to 8th man performance) vs a slightly worse pick and whatever Iggy gets traded for midseason (not Winslow directly based on the Memphis deal but someone from somebody) - probably keep Spellman in that scenario as well.


Ownership was in on the plan, if they were not willing to pay the money they would not have made the move because now all that move would be is bad PR.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#28 » by OptionZero » Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:57 pm

Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#29 » by The Maestro » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:08 pm

OptionZero wrote:Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves


How could they get a $35 mil TPE?
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#30 » by giberish » Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:25 pm

The Maestro wrote:
OptionZero wrote:Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves


How could they get a $35 mil TPE?


Turn the KD signing into a S&T deal. Would have had to offer a 2nd or something for BK to care, but less then the fake 1st/2 2nds they gave in the Russel part.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#31 » by xdrta+ » Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:14 pm

giberish wrote:
The Maestro wrote:
OptionZero wrote:Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves


How could they get a $35 mil TPE?


Turn the KD signing into a S&T deal. Would have had to offer a 2nd or something for BK to care, but less then the fake 1st/2 2nds they gave in the Russel part.


Any S&T means they would be hardcapped.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#32 » by OptionZero » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:35 pm

i thought only the teams "receiving" a player in a sign a trade is hardcapped?

Reference, CBQ FAQ #20:
"In other words, when a team is below the Apron and uses its Bi-Annual exception, receives a player who is signed-and-traded, or uses its Mid-Level exception to sign a player to a contract larger than allowed by the Taxpayer Mid-Level exception, the team becomes hard-capped at the Apron for the remainder of that season. This eliminates any potential loophole where a team could first use one of these exceptions and subsequently add salary to go above the Apron, since the reverse -- adding salary first and then using the exception -- would be illegal."
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#33 » by thinkingwarriors » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:43 pm

giberish wrote:
The Maestro wrote:
OptionZero wrote:Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves


How could they get a $35 mil TPE?


Turn the KD signing into a S&T deal. Would have had to offer a 2nd or something for BK to care, but less then the fake 1st/2 2nds they gave in the Russel part.


Why do so many Warriors fans second guess Myers? Do you guys really think you're better capologists than he and his staff? Because you're not, maybe xdrta+, but the vast majority are not.

For Myers to have turned Iguodala, a 1st and a 2nd into Wiggins, a 1st and a 2nd was unprecedented genius.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#34 » by ILOVEIT » Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:54 pm

thinkingwarriors wrote:
giberish wrote:
The Maestro wrote:
How could they get a $35 mil TPE?


Turn the KD signing into a S&T deal. Would have had to offer a 2nd or something for BK to care, but less then the fake 1st/2 2nds they gave in the Russel part.


Why do so many Warriors fans second guess Myers? Do you guys really think you're better capologists than he and his staff? Because you're not, maybe xdrta+, but the vast majority are not.

For Myers to have turned Iguodala, a 1st and a 2nd into Wiggins, a 1st and a 2nd was unprecedented genius.


Amen. Although second guessing is all part of the fun.

In the end, if Wiggins absolutely sucks and Warriors are stuck with him....others are right. But if Wiggins stays and helps Warriors win another chip or he is traded in a deal bringing back a star...we can bring this thread back up. I think Myers did the best he could have done.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#35 » by Scoots1994 » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:40 pm

OptionZero wrote:Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves


Don't know how the Warriors turn KD into a TPE, can you detail how that would work in your mind.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#36 » by xdrta+ » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:31 am

OptionZero wrote:i thought only the teams "receiving" a player in a sign a trade is hardcapped?


You're right, I lost track of your argument there. I don't know why Brooklyn would do it though, if they're going to use cap space, they could just sign him outright. If they don't use cap space, they would have to send out salary.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#37 » by thinkingwarriors » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:57 am

xdrta+ wrote:
OptionZero wrote:i thought only the teams "receiving" a player in a sign a trade is hardcapped?


You're right, I lost track of your argument there. I don't know why Brooklyn would do it though, if they're going to use cap space, they could just sign him outright. If they don't use cap space, they would have to send out salary.


My question is why would the Warriors value a $35mil trade exception more than Russell? The difference between Russell and Wiggins was a lightly protected 1st and a 2nd in next year's draft from a team that's been treadmilling or worse for years. The Wolves took a huge gamble with this trade.

Even if a KD trade exception gets us Wiggins it assuredly doesn't get us the pick next year and otherwise I don't see any superstars waiting to be offloaded into an exception right now.
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#38 » by OptionZero » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:44 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
OptionZero wrote:i thought only the teams "receiving" a player in a sign a trade is hardcapped?


You're right, I lost track of your argument there. I don't know why Brooklyn would do it though, if they're going to use cap space, they could just sign him outright. If they don't use cap space, they would have to send out salary.


CLE and TOR both received TPEs for LBJ and Bosh back in 2010. I believe MIA sent them second round picks

A sign and trade didn't hurt BKN - they were able to accomplish all of their stuff the way it actually played out.

We could even send them the same protected pick we ended up sending them (top 14 protected 1st -> seconds)
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#39 » by OptionZero » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:47 pm

thinkingwarriors wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
OptionZero wrote:i thought only the teams "receiving" a player in a sign a trade is hardcapped?


You're right, I lost track of your argument there. I don't know why Brooklyn would do it though, if they're going to use cap space, they could just sign him outright. If they don't use cap space, they would have to send out salary.


My question is why would the Warriors value a $35mil trade exception more than Russell? The difference between Russell and Wiggins was a lightly protected 1st and a 2nd in next year's draft from a team that's been treadmilling or worse for years. The Wolves took a huge gamble with this trade.

Even if a KD trade exception gets us Wiggins it assuredly doesn't get us the pick next year and otherwise I don't see any superstars waiting to be offloaded into an exception right now.


Did you not read any thing i wrote?

We wouldn't have been hardcapped, which would have opened up use of the MLE

A TPE is WAY WAY WAY more flexible than the 5 year max we gave Dlo . . . because in case you didn't notice, we weren't exactly getting blown away with offers for Dlo when we had him. Hell, we ended up taking a WORSE contract and getting only 1 first rounder back for our troubles

With the TPE u could EITHER play the asset game and take multiple smaller (but maybe useful!) player contracts and collected picks for our troubles, OR used our own picks to acquire actually good players

We would have kept Iguodala - he's not a bad player, right? And if the tank were on, we could . . . trade him to Miami! or anywhere else that wanted him

If you don't see the possibilities, i dunno man, you weren't paying attention to this offseason and squeezed we were?
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Re: Would Warriors have cap space if... 

Post#40 » by OptionZero » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:50 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
OptionZero wrote:Myers could have gotten a TPE worth $35M and kept iguoadala. He wouldn't have been hardcapped either and wouldn't have surrendered a picks in either deal

so they would have entered the offseason:

$35M TPE
keep two of our own firsts
keep Iguodala
no hardcap
able to use the TPMLE

With the TPE you could do the REVERSE of what we actually did, which was take on money that was unwanted, or used the firsts we still have to trade to acquire good players

then signed a role player with the MLE

retained Iguodala OR traded him to MIA ourselves (or anywhere else

Basically it would have opened up a multitude of possibilities

and had Steph still gotten hurt, we would still have tank ability and MORE flexibility

Remember that tax concerns and the hardcap is why we had to play the 10-day/2-way game

Hell, we could have eaten Wiggins outright (into the TPE) and leveraged MIN for more pix

i mean the OP could have looked very easily at a number of free databases to answer his original question

but whateves


Don't know how the Warriors turn KD into a TPE, can you detail how that would work in your mind.


the same way it works anytime you do a sign and trade to send your FA into a cap space team?

MIA did it in 2010.

Twice

With Lebron James and Chris bosh

https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/trade_100710.html#:~:text=CLEVELAND%2C%20OH%20%2D%20July%2010%2C,Manager%20Chris%20Grant%20announced%20today.

https://www.nba.com/cavaliers/news/trade_100710.html#:~:text=CLEVELAND%2C%20OH%20%2D%20July%2010%2C,Manager%20Chris%20Grant%20announced%20today.

Toronto actually got TWO FIRST ROUNDERS for sending bosh away in the deal

The rules have changed a bit since then, but thats the idea

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