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Defense wins Championships!!

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Mylie10
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Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#1 » by Mylie10 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:04 pm

If the Warriors want to sniff a title again, they HAVE to get back to being one of the top defensive teams in the league.

Based on the current roster now, defense is a huge weak point. Klay and Draymond are no brained good defenders. Steph is underrated and I’m fine with him and this quick hands. If Looney were fully healthy and moving well again, I’d feel good about him. Wiggins showed a willingness to defend, and did ok. Can’t hate on him yet. The rest.....meh.

Chriss is decent at his very best, but I wouldn’t call him a good defensive player at this stage.
Paschall has potential to be a good defender, but not even close yet.
Poole - No! He should work more on his defense and less on his heat check shooting.
Lee tries hard, but his lack of athleticism really hurts him in some matchups.
Bowman - loves his on ball defense. He’s a bulldog and can definitely run a second unit, but his shot fell off a cliff later in the year, so I’m not sure he survives the roster adds.

I’d like to bring back Robinson on a very cheap deal if possible. He proved me wrong and I liked his demeanor and the ability to shoot the 3 on top of defending well.

Now we need to grab Wiseman to lock down the center spot and provide much needed front court length.

We need to hit a homer run with the TPE and that guy better play good defense, who ever he is.

The MLE will most likely be for a defensive veteran who can also score. I’m thinking savvy veteran who might be looking for an opportunity to make a run at a title. Fingers crossed for Gasol, Ibaka, or more likely someone like Crowder.

Maybe a vet minimum guy like Evan Turner who can play some decent defense, and also give us some on the type of game Shaun Livingston provided.

Anyway, so many rate players based on their offense, but the defensive side of the ball is where we will have a legit chance, if we can add the right mix.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#2 » by TB » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:36 pm

Draft Wiseman 1st round.
Draft Hinton 2nd round.
TPE Oubre or Smart using picks.
MLE Crowder.
Trade future picks and Loon for Kennard.
Juan and Wooten Jr 2way.

Starters: Curry / Klay / Wiggins / Dray / Wiseman
Core bench: Kennard, Oubre, Crowder, Paschall, Chriss
Deep bench: Lee, Bowman, Poole, Smiley, Hinton
2way: Juan and Wooten Jr

Plan the parade.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#3 » by Onus » Wed Jul 22, 2020 5:44 pm

There’s actually really good defensive center free agents: Gasol, Ibaka, Favors and Baynes. Then Noel, Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Millsap, Plumlee, Dwight

Wing defenders: Harkless, Turner, Crowder, MKG, DeMarre Carroll, Holiday, Josh Jackson, Connaughton, Roberson, Robinson, RHJ,
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#4 » by TB » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:03 pm

Onus wrote:There’s actually really good defensive center free agents: Gasol, Ibaka, Favors and Baynes. Then Noel, Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Millsap, Plumlee, Dwight

Wing defenders: Harkless, Turner, Crowder, MKG, DeMarre Carroll, Holiday, Josh Jackson, Connaughton, Roberson, Robinson, RHJ,


Totally. Main reason I didn't put a center in the TPE/MLE/Trade usage is if we snag Wiseman or Okongwu (i'd be fine with them splitting time with Chriss/Dray/Loon/etc at center.

But if we draft someone like Okoro or Deni... then i'm all for using MLE on Gasol/Baynes/etc. Or even a TPE of Jonas.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#5 » by Warriors Analyst » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:12 pm

Rebounding is a huge part of defense. Wiggins and Paschall are bad rebounders at their positions. Klay doesn't rebound, but that's in large part because of his role. Green and Chriss are average defenders at their positions. Curry is the only plus rebounder relative to his position in our core 7. That needs to improve. It would help to get a big tanky 5 like Baynes or Gasol or Valicunas, but given they're likely to only play 20-25 minutes tops, I think we should also be concerned about wing rebounding. Harkless and Crowder are good big wings that can hit the boards. I like Connaughton a lot having watched him in Milwaukee. He's athletic as hell and rebounds like a big despite being 6'4-6'5 tops.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#6 » by Onus » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:43 pm

TB wrote:
Onus wrote:There’s actually really good defensive center free agents: Gasol, Ibaka, Favors and Baynes. Then Noel, Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Millsap, Plumlee, Dwight

Wing defenders: Harkless, Turner, Crowder, MKG, DeMarre Carroll, Holiday, Josh Jackson, Connaughton, Roberson, Robinson, RHJ,


Totally. Main reason I didn't put a center in the TPE/MLE/Trade usage is if we snag Wiseman or Okongwu (i'd be fine with them splitting time with Chriss/Dray/Loon/etc at center.

But if we draft someone like Okoro or Deni... then i'm all for using MLE on Gasol/Baynes/etc. Or even a TPE of Jonas.

For me it’s Wiseman trade down or Vassel/Nesmith. Then we should be able to pick up a decent center in fa. That’s actually probably best case for short term and maybe even long term depending on your outlook of Wiseman.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#7 » by TB » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:49 pm

Onus wrote:
TB wrote:
Onus wrote:There’s actually really good defensive center free agents: Gasol, Ibaka, Favors and Baynes. Then Noel, Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Millsap, Plumlee, Dwight

Wing defenders: Harkless, Turner, Crowder, MKG, DeMarre Carroll, Holiday, Josh Jackson, Connaughton, Roberson, Robinson, RHJ,


Totally. Main reason I didn't put a center in the TPE/MLE/Trade usage is if we snag Wiseman or Okongwu (i'd be fine with them splitting time with Chriss/Dray/Loon/etc at center.

But if we draft someone like Okoro or Deni... then i'm all for using MLE on Gasol/Baynes/etc. Or even a TPE of Jonas.

For me it’s Wiseman trade down or Vassel/Nesmith. Then we should be able to pick up a decent center in fa. That’s actually probably best case for short term and maybe even long term depending on your outlook of Wiseman.


Very good plan.

Still figuring out where i've got Vassel, Nesmith, and patrick williams.

Currently have Nesmith and Williams top 10 flirting with top 5.... could totally see Nesmith ending up a 20ppg guy or Williams being an elite glue guy. But could also see Nesmith being Shan Foster and Williams being Chris Singleton (two similar prospects i loved).

Vassel i can't figure out. I should love him... but the fact that Williams is a year younger and already almost as good and much stronger... i dunno. Whats your expectations for Vassel in NBA?
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#8 » by Onus » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:05 pm

TB wrote:
Onus wrote:
TB wrote:
Totally. Main reason I didn't put a center in the TPE/MLE/Trade usage is if we snag Wiseman or Okongwu (i'd be fine with them splitting time with Chriss/Dray/Loon/etc at center.

But if we draft someone like Okoro or Deni... then i'm all for using MLE on Gasol/Baynes/etc. Or even a TPE of Jonas.

For me it’s Wiseman trade down or Vassel/Nesmith. Then we should be able to pick up a decent center in fa. That’s actually probably best case for short term and maybe even long term depending on your outlook of Wiseman.


Very good plan.

Still figuring out where i've got Vassel, Nesmith, and patrick williams.

Currently have Nesmith and Williams top 10 flirting with top 5.... could totally see Nesmith ending up a 20ppg guy or Williams being an elite glue guy. But could also see Nesmith being Shan Foster and Williams being Chris Singleton (two similar prospects i loved).

Vassel i can't figure out. I should love him... but the fact that Williams is a year younger and already almost as good and much stronger... i dunno. Whats your expectations for Vassel in NBA?


Best case scenario for Vassell is probably Paul George. I think coming in as prospects they’re pretty similar. George probably had more handles to his game but it wasn’t by much. Realistically think he ends up as a super role player with elite defense with a 3 point shot topping out at 12-14 ppg. If he works on his handle and gets the green light to chuck up to 18ppg. I think he’s the best wing player who has a clear and defined role on any team and he’ll be able to fulfill it anywhere. He may not have superstar potential but he’s the type of player every team wants.

I actually am not as high on Williams as I should be. This video kind of threw me off of him. The lateral agility is a killer for being a defensive player and I’m not sure he has the offensive pop to negate that.

Nesmith is a bit similar to Williams with heavy feet on defense but damn can he shoot so I don’t question his offense the way I do with Williams.

To add I think Vassel is the best pure wing defender who will have a defensive impact.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#9 » by ahmetmekin » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:09 pm

Onus wrote:There’s actually really good defensive center free agents: Gasol, Ibaka, Favors and Baynes. Then Noel, Biyombo, Tristan Thompson, Millsap, Plumlee, Dwight

Wing defenders: Harkless, Turner, Crowder, MKG, DeMarre Carroll, Holiday, Josh Jackson, Connaughton, Roberson, Robinson, RHJ,

And most of the listed players will not cost a lot and they are real upgrades compared the current roster. Since the Warriors need defenders and shooters, Gasol, Ibaka or Baynes would be fantastic additions. In addition to the center, I think they should get a 3 and D SF. This will guarantee a good playoff spot (2021 GSW FRP+several SRPs can be used to make these moves.)
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#10 » by TB » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:14 pm

Onus wrote:
TB wrote:
Onus wrote:For me it’s Wiseman trade down or Vassel/Nesmith. Then we should be able to pick up a decent center in fa. That’s actually probably best case for short term and maybe even long term depending on your outlook of Wiseman.


Very good plan.

Still figuring out where i've got Vassel, Nesmith, and patrick williams.

Currently have Nesmith and Williams top 10 flirting with top 5.... could totally see Nesmith ending up a 20ppg guy or Williams being an elite glue guy. But could also see Nesmith being Shan Foster and Williams being Chris Singleton (two similar prospects i loved).

Vassel i can't figure out. I should love him... but the fact that Williams is a year younger and already almost as good and much stronger... i dunno. Whats your expectations for Vassel in NBA?


Best case scenario for Vassell is probably Paul George. I think coming in as prospects they’re pretty similar. George probably had more handles to his game but it wasn’t by much. Realistically think he ends up as a super role player with elite defense with a 3 point shot topping out at 12-14 ppg. If he works on his handle and gets the green light to chuck up to 18ppg. I think he’s the best wing player who has a clear and defined role on any team and he’ll be able to fulfill it anywhere. He may not have superstar potential but he’s the type of player every team wants.

I actually am not as high on Williams as I should be. This video kind of threw me off of him. The lateral agility is a killer for being a defensive player and I’m not sure he has the offensive pop to negate that.

Nesmith is a bit similar to Williams with heavy feet on defense but damn can he shoot so I don’t question his offense the way I do with Williams.

To add I think Vassel is the best pure wing defender who will have a defensive impact.


Super helpful, thanks!
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#11 » by HiRez » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:34 pm

Onus wrote:I actually am not as high on Williams as I should be.

Sometimes all the experts are wrong, but there are usually good reasons why players with seemingly a lot of good skills are ranked lower than you think they should be.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#12 » by Onus » Wed Jul 22, 2020 9:42 pm

HiRez wrote:
Onus wrote:I actually am not as high on Williams as I should be.

Sometimes all the experts are wrong, but there are usually good reasons why players with seemingly a lot of good skills are ranked lower than you think they should be.

Yea it seems like there are a few people that think Williams has high upside and would draft him in the lottery. I don’t see it but who knows.

But yea I can see why people aren’t that high on Paul Reed, he’s an undisciplined defender and he doesn’t have a conventional shot but damn is he disruptive anyhow.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#13 » by Little Digger » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:02 pm

Ill roll with Coach Adams opinion and my eyes ..As a member of the San Francisco Warriors, Wiggins is an excellent defender
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#14 » by Onus » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:17 pm

Little Digger wrote:Ill roll with Coach Adams opinion and my eyes ..As a member of the San Francisco Warriors, Wiggins is an excellent defender

I agree Wiggins will be a plus defender.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#15 » by Mylie10 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:40 pm

Watched a good breakdown video of Vassell’s defense. I always loved that part of his game, and the fact that he shot 42% from 3.

He was clearly Florida States leader, but that was a very deep team and they spread shots around, so that’s why his 13 points per game is misleading.

I’d love Vassell in a trade down scenario that also brings back a solid veteran.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#16 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:42 am

Warriors Analyst wrote:Rebounding is a huge part of defense. Wiggins and Paschall are bad rebounders at their positions. Klay doesn't rebound, but that's in large part because of his role. Green and Chriss are average defenders at their positions. Curry is the only plus rebounder relative to his position in our core 7. That needs to improve. It would help to get a big tanky 5 like Baynes or Gasol or Valicunas, but given they're likely to only play 20-25 minutes tops, I think we should also be concerned about wing rebounding. Harkless and Crowder are good big wings that can hit the boards. I like Connaughton a lot having watched him in Milwaukee. He's athletic as hell and rebounds like a big despite being 6'4-6'5 tops.


Individual defensive rebounding numbers are wildly over-valued in the modern NBA where offensive rebounding numbers are down so much form the past, so someone on your team is going to get the board and it doesn't really matter who it is the majority of the time. Player offense has a lot to do with rebounding numbers, and Klay, Wiggins, and Paschall running back on offense from from positions at the FT line and above on most possessions is going to take away from their defensive rebounding numbers. Not that they are good rebounders, more that it's a choice by the team on how to use them.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#17 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:43 am

Mylie10 wrote:Watched a good breakdown video of Vassell’s defense. I always loved that part of his game, and the fact that he shot 42% from 3.

He was clearly Florida States leader, but that was a very deep team and they spread shots around, so that’s why his 13 points per game is misleading.

I’d love Vassell in a trade down scenario that also brings back a solid veteran.


I agree. If the team loves someone at their pick they should take him, if they don't they should trade down and get two of the other guys. If they could get Okoro and Vassell (not likely) that would be amazing.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#18 » by Warriors Analyst » Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:56 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:
Warriors Analyst wrote:Rebounding is a huge part of defense. Wiggins and Paschall are bad rebounders at their positions. Klay doesn't rebound, but that's in large part because of his role. Green and Chriss are average defenders at their positions. Curry is the only plus rebounder relative to his position in our core 7. That needs to improve. It would help to get a big tanky 5 like Baynes or Gasol or Valicunas, but given they're likely to only play 20-25 minutes tops, I think we should also be concerned about wing rebounding. Harkless and Crowder are good big wings that can hit the boards. I like Connaughton a lot having watched him in Milwaukee. He's athletic as hell and rebounds like a big despite being 6'4-6'5 tops.


Individual defensive rebounding numbers are wildly over-valued in the modern NBA where offensive rebounding numbers are down so much form the past, so someone on your team is going to get the board and it doesn't really matter who it is the majority of the time. Player offense has a lot to do with rebounding numbers, and Klay, Wiggins, and Paschall running back on offense from from positions at the FT line and above on most possessions is going to take away from their defensive rebounding numbers. Not that they are good rebounders, more that it's a choice by the team on how to use them.


I've been arguing that for quite a while, specifically in regards to Klay. But I don't think that offensive role has much to do with Wiggins and Paschall having low rebound numbers. Paschall should be a better rebounder than he is. He's got insane leaping ability and strength, I mean he's basically 80% of Zion in terms of athleticism, but he just doesn't get boards despite playing lots of minutes at the 4. We have multiple years of stats that show Wiggins doesn't rebound much. He played a lot harder on D than I anticipated in his brief stint here, but he doesn't strike me as someone who has the hunger to bang around in the paint and get boards.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#19 » by TB » Thu Jul 23, 2020 5:13 pm

The two things that would keep Paschall from being a legit starter have always been rebounding and 3point percentage. I was willing to draft him with the assumption that he could get the 3 ball falling at a good clip, but would likely never be an average or better rebounding PF.

He's just never been an elite rebounder at any level. So I really don't expect it to happen now that he's in the NBA. I think he's got the potential to be one of the best backup forwards in the league, who can spot start when needed. But it's probably a bad thing if our eventual Dray replacement is Paschall. Still an amazing draft pick.
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Re: Defense wins Championships!! 

Post#20 » by Warriors Analyst » Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:42 pm

TB wrote:The two things that would keep Paschall from being a legit starter have always been rebounding and 3point percentage. I was willing to draft him with the assumption that he could get the 3 ball falling at a good clip, but would likely never be an average or better rebounding PF.

He's just never been an elite rebounder at any level. So I really don't expect it to happen now that he's in the NBA. I think he's got the potential to be one of the best backup forwards in the league, who can spot start when needed. But it's probably a bad thing if our eventual Dray replacement is Paschall. Still an amazing draft pick.


It's confounding that he doesn't rebound well. He clearly has a good motor, he tries hard on defense and he's got the body to rebound. I wonder if it's just never been something he focuses on. It's funny (and annoying) to hear normies and idiots like Reggie Miller make the baby Draymond comparison. He's nothing like that. But Paschall could very well become Corey Maggette with better court vision and a willingness to move the ball around. That's a super valuable bench piece.

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