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WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1741 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:57 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
EvanZ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:Wiseman will be great in a few years...I have little doubt about that.

For me it's all about the time it takes for him to develop.


THERE IS NO TIME


So many in panic mode.


I've decided I'm just not going to talk to the people who are in that mode beyond a few tries anymore.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1742 » by sjballer03 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:13 am

Onus wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
shazam_guy wrote:Who thought Wiseman was going to contribute in a big way immediately? Seriously, just find me the people who said that and I'll join you in scoffing at them (now with added hindsight!) But I don't remember that being part of the discussion at all. It was always about drafting him for long-term upside versus drafting someone else with more immediate value, which usually involved trading down. But as someone else very usefully pointed out, nobody seemed to want the Warriors (or Minnesota's, or Charlotte's) draft choice.


Someone must be able to point to the long line of teenage bigs who were dominant as rookies. I mean, since everyone was SURE Wiseman was going to do it it MUST be common.

Myers and Kerr both said straight up that it was going to take him time to develop.

It was clear the Warriors were aiming to not be in the top 10 teams to keep their pick.

Had there been no Covid and had he been healthy the naysayers would still hate him even with much better numbers if the Warriors didn't make the playoffs.

The Warriors are not in win now mode. The delusional ones are the people thinking they are.

If we're not in win now mode with the highest ever payroll in league history, WTF are we doing?


In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1743 » by sjballer03 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:14 am

EvanZ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
The Warriors are not in win now mode. The delusional ones are the people thinking they are.


I mean...you are just trolling at this point buddy. :lol:


I gotta admit. Your trolling is a lot more entertaining than people like Clyde with their "know it all" style trolling.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1744 » by Onus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:29 am

sjballer03 wrote:
Onus wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
Someone must be able to point to the long line of teenage bigs who were dominant as rookies. I mean, since everyone was SURE Wiseman was going to do it it MUST be common.

Myers and Kerr both said straight up that it was going to take him time to develop.

It was clear the Warriors were aiming to not be in the top 10 teams to keep their pick.

Had there been no Covid and had he been healthy the naysayers would still hate him even with much better numbers if the Warriors didn't make the playoffs.

The Warriors are not in win now mode. The delusional ones are the people thinking they are.

If we're not in win now mode with the highest ever payroll in league history, WTF are we doing?


In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.

haha and when you're light years you quit on the season even though you have an mvp playing in their prime
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1745 » by xdrta+ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:44 am

Onus wrote:
sjballer03 wrote:
Onus wrote:If we're not in win now mode with the highest ever payroll in league history, WTF are we doing?


In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.

haha and when you're light years you quit on the season even though you have an mvp playing in their prime


Just how did the Warrriors "quit on the season?"
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1746 » by sjballer03 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:47 am

Onus wrote:
sjballer03 wrote:
Onus wrote:If we're not in win now mode with the highest ever payroll in league history, WTF are we doing?


In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.

haha and when you're light years you quit on the season even though you have an mvp playing in their prime


Gave you a +1 for your hot take with no substance :lol: Steph and Dray are gonna be each responsible for 5+ turnovers a game in the playoffs without an elite shooting option like Klay. Explain to me how that is that sustainable for four straight series if they even make it that far. Burning out an MVP for no reason is also a problem right?
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1747 » by sjballer03 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:54 am

xdrta+ wrote:
Onus wrote:
sjballer03 wrote:
In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.

haha and when you're light years you quit on the season even though you have an mvp playing in their prime


Just how did the Warrriors "quit on the season?"


He won't answer this.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1748 » by Onus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:05 am

xdrta+ wrote:
Onus wrote:
sjballer03 wrote:
In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.

haha and when you're light years you quit on the season even though you have an mvp playing in their prime


Just how did the Warrriors "quit on the season?"

When winning is not the no 1 priority anymore you quit on the season.
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2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1749 » by Onus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:07 am

sjballer03 wrote:
Onus wrote:
sjballer03 wrote:
In case you didn't realize, a decent chunk of that payroll has been stuck because of Klay. So the moment Klay was hurt (the first time), there has never been such a thing as win now.

haha and when you're light years you quit on the season even though you have an mvp playing in their prime


Gave you a +1 for your hot take with no substance :lol: Steph and Dray are gonna be each responsible for 5+ turnovers a game in the playoffs without an elite shooting option like Klay. Explain to me how that is that sustainable for four straight series if they even make it that far. Burning out an MVP for no reason is also a problem right?

You’re right steph and dray weren’t the focal points to 5 straight finals appearances. No chance to win with those 2.

also You’re right the nets should fold it in since they have 40+m on sitting on the bench.
Most 4th Quarter Points in Final since 1991
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2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1750 » by EvanZ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:11 am

Kerr literally said they were not chasing wins.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1751 » by xdrta+ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:06 am

EvanZ wrote:Kerr literally said they were not chasing wins.


You literally take whatever you feel like out of context to fit your agenda, no matter how silly. Kerr said he wouldn't play Curry 40 minutes a night to scrounge a few extra wins. That's not quitting on the season.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1752 » by EvanZ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:32 pm

xdrta+ wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Kerr literally said they were not chasing wins.


You literally take whatever you feel like out of context to fit your agenda, no matter how silly. Kerr said he wouldn't play Curry 40 minutes a night to scrounge a few extra wins. That's not quitting on the season.


Uh, it kinda is when you are on the edge of making the playoffs and needed "a few extra wins".

But please tell us why it's not quitting.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1753 » by xdrta+ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 3:25 pm

EvanZ wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Kerr literally said they were not chasing wins.


You literally take whatever you feel like out of context to fit your agenda, no matter how silly. Kerr said he wouldn't play Curry 40 minutes a night to scrounge a few extra wins. That's not quitting on the season.


Uh, it kinda is when you are on the edge of making the playoffs and needed "a few extra wins".

But please tell us why it's not quitting.


Please tell us why using common sense to preserve Curry's health and career equals "quitting on the team."

And back in February, when Kerr said that, I'm sure you would know just which games to play Curry 40+ minutes to guarantee victory, and just how many they would need to make the playoffs. You're very big on hindsight.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1754 » by and1GS » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:01 pm

Steph was top 25 in MPG (off the leader by 3 mpg) so I'm not sure the 'why didn't we run him into the ground for the 6 seed?' angle really flys. It's commonplace now for star players to fall outside the top 25 in mpg (ex: LeBron and Giannis) so I'm not quite seeing the connection here.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1755 » by GQ Hot Dog » Fri Jun 11, 2021 4:16 pm

EvanZ wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Kerr literally said they were not chasing wins.


You literally take whatever you feel like out of context to fit your agenda, no matter how silly. Kerr said he wouldn't play Curry 40 minutes a night to scrounge a few extra wins. That's not quitting on the season.


Uh, it kinda is when you are on the edge of making the playoffs and needed "a few extra wins".

But please tell us why it's not quitting.


"A few extra wins" would have likely still put us in the play-in game and would certainly have lost us our pick.

I'm surprised the Warriors prioritizing Wiseman's development is still so controversial with (a very few) posters to this board. Are you guys not watching DeAndre Ayton play the MVP to a standstill? Isn't it clear by now that the things a talented 7fter can do can't be duplicated by other players?

For two seasons we dominated with Bogut doing those things. After he left, for three seasons we dominated with overwhelming offensive talent. So unless another KD level talent is walking through that door, we need an actual center that can do center things. Zaza and JaVale quality players won't cut it.

I think many here romanticize our shift to small-ball during the dynasty years, like Kerr had figured something out and changed the game. That's not what happened. Kerr did what he did out of necessity because the Cavs were going big and we couldn't hang. Bogut, Ezeli and Speights weren't as good doing big man stuff as TT and Mozgov and Kerr's solution was to play smaller and faster than their bigs could handle which was when the DL was born.

After we moved Bogut for KD we were forced to downgrade the center position even further with Zaza and so being able to run opposing bigs off the floor by going small became even more important. But lets not confuse necessity with desirability. Kerr and Myers don't want to be so weak at the center position and never did.

Wiseman represented a rare opportunity for a team in the midst of a dynastic run to add the sort of talent that's only available at the top of a draft. Sure, the fit was awkward because, as we all know, talented centers tend to take longer to develop than other positions but the chance was worth taking particularly after we lost 50% of our max contract talent to a season ending injury.

I have a question for all you criticizing the Warriors prioritizing the development of Wiseman this past season: Did the teams with the poorest centers make the playoffs this year?
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1756 » by FNQ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:15 pm

EvanZ wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Kerr literally said they were not chasing wins.


You literally take whatever you feel like out of context to fit your agenda, no matter how silly. Kerr said he wouldn't play Curry 40 minutes a night to scrounge a few extra wins. That's not quitting on the season.


Uh, it kinda is when you are on the edge of making the playoffs and needed "a few extra wins".

But please tell us why it's not quitting.


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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1757 » by WarriorGM » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:20 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:I have a question for all you criticizing the Warriors prioritizing the development of Wiseman this past season: Did the teams with the poorest centers make the playoffs this year?


Vucevic didn't make it did he? Drummond was on the Cavaliers for most of the year and he didn't exactly look like he was helping the Lakers. Karl Anthony Towns. Christian Wood rates highly by some metrics.

On the other hand it seems the Nets don't exactly need a center. Is Blake a center? I was suggesting targeting him but was scoffed at by many here. If the Dubs need a center it makes more sense that they acquire one rather than develop one.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1758 » by GQ Hot Dog » Fri Jun 11, 2021 5:48 pm

WarriorGM wrote:
GQ Hot Dog wrote:I have a question for all you criticizing the Warriors prioritizing the development of Wiseman this past season: Did the teams with the poorest centers make the playoffs this year?


Vucevic didn't make it did he? Drummond was on the Cavaliers for most of the year and he didn't exactly look like he was helping the Lakers. Karl Anthony Towns. Christian Wood rates highly by some metrics.

On the other hand it seems the Nets don't exactly need a center. Is Blake a center? I was suggesting targeting him but was scoffed at by many here. If the Dubs need a center it makes more sense that they acquire one rather than develop one.


Vucevic, Drummond and KAT are three of the worst defensive centers in the NBA and so it's no coincidence their teams didn't make the playoffs. If Wiseman is in that category, picking him would have been a mistake.

The Nets are the single outlier in exactly the same way we were the outlier for 3 years with KD. We proved that you can win championships playing small-ball as long as you have an overwhelming level of offensive talent. Blake isn't a center and wouldn't be useful against an actual center. Luckily for the Nets their first round matchup had an injured and otherwise mediocre starting center. In the second round, while Lopez is useful he's not the sort of offensive player that can take advantage of Griffin's lack of size.

It doesn't make sense for the Warriors to acquire one because good centers aren't available. I still think the Rockets were crazy to move on from Capela as eagerly as they did. But centers like Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Adebayo or Gobert aren't available to acquire. Even someone like Valanciunas I don't think Memphis would trade. He's proven year after year his value despite his teams' always seeming to want to replace him.

Our dynasty years convinced a lot of fans that centers should be deprioritized but not even our FO believes that.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1759 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:08 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
EvanZ wrote:
xdrta+ wrote:
You literally take whatever you feel like out of context to fit your agenda, no matter how silly. Kerr said he wouldn't play Curry 40 minutes a night to scrounge a few extra wins. That's not quitting on the season.


Uh, it kinda is when you are on the edge of making the playoffs and needed "a few extra wins".

But please tell us why it's not quitting.


"A few extra wins" would have likely still put us in the play-in game and would certainly have lost us our pick.

I'm surprised the Warriors prioritizing Wiseman's development is still so controversial with (a very few) posters to this board. Are you guys not watching DeAndre Ayton play the MVP to a standstill? Isn't it clear by now that the things a talented 7fter can do can't be duplicated by other players?

For two seasons we dominated with Bogut doing those things. After he left, for three seasons we dominated with overwhelming offensive talent. So unless another KD level talent is walking through that door, we need an actual center that can do center things. Zaza and JaVale quality players won't cut it.

I think many here romanticize our shift to small-ball during the dynasty years, like Kerr had figured something out and changed the game. That's not what happened. Kerr did what he did out of necessity because the Cavs were going big and we couldn't hang. Bogut, Ezeli and Speights weren't as good doing big man stuff as TT and Mozgov and Kerr's solution was to play smaller and faster than their bigs could handle which was when the DL was born.

After we moved Bogut for KD we were forced to downgrade the center position even further with Zaza and so being able to run opposing bigs off the floor by going small became even more important. But lets not confuse necessity with desirability. Kerr and Myers don't want to be so weak at the center position and never did.

Wiseman represented a rare opportunity for a team in the midst of a dynastic run to add the sort of talent that's only available at the top of a draft. Sure, the fit was awkward because, as we all know, talented centers tend to take longer to develop than other positions but the chance was worth taking particularly after we lost 50% of our max contract talent to a season ending injury.

I have a question for all you criticizing the Warriors prioritizing the development of Wiseman this past season: Did the teams with the poorest centers make the playoffs this year?


100%

Not only that the Raptors size killed the Warriors and they regularly struggled against teams that had dominant rebounding even with KD. Skill is good, but skill with size still wins more games.

Last year's draft was weak, and thanks in part to Covid was the least known draft in our lifetimes. The Warriors were faced with going with 2 players that looked like they were going to be (probably good) offense only of questionable character and dedication and a very young very raw big who had shown flashes of the potential to be special.

They took Wiseman knowing it would take time. Bigs generally struggle in the NBA as rookies. Teen bigs essentially always look bad. As far as I know there has never been a teenage big who had no offseason with the team at all who came in and showed out. Add in injury then Covid then injury then injury then injury and of course he had problems.

Look at the per36 stats for teenage bigs in NBA history including the ones who became hall of famers and Wiseman is right there. I'm not saying he'll be a hall of fame player but talk of "dumping" him is wildly premature.

What did he show?
- He's got a pretty good handle for someone his size
- He's got a decent looking shot for someone his size in the paint and out
- He's mobile and he hustles
- He's timid
- He's clearly lost and the game is too fast for him
- He's not strong enough

The first 3 are why they drafted him, the last 3 are normal for teenage bigs in the NBA.

Good front offices and coaching staffs don't come up with a long range plan and then abandon it right out the gate when it's not working at the ideal level. THAT would be stupid.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1760 » by Onus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:16 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
GQ Hot Dog wrote:I have a question for all you criticizing the Warriors prioritizing the development of Wiseman this past season: Did the teams with the poorest centers make the playoffs this year?


Vucevic didn't make it did he? Drummond was on the Cavaliers for most of the year and he didn't exactly look like he was helping the Lakers. Karl Anthony Towns. Christian Wood rates highly by some metrics.

On the other hand it seems the Nets don't exactly need a center. Is Blake a center? I was suggesting targeting him but was scoffed at by many here. If the Dubs need a center it makes more sense that they acquire one rather than develop one.


Vucevic, Drummond and KAT are three of the worst defensive centers in the NBA and so it's no coincidence their teams didn't make the playoffs. If Wiseman is in that category, picking him would have been a mistake.

The Nets are the single outlier in exactly the same way we were the outlier for 3 years with KD. We proved that you can win championships playing small-ball as long as you have an overwhelming level of offensive talent. Blake isn't a center and wouldn't be useful against an actual center. Luckily for the Nets their first round matchup had an injured and otherwise mediocre starting center. In the second round, while Lopez is useful he's not the sort of offensive player that can take advantage of Griffin's lack of size.

It doesn't make sense for the Warriors to acquire one because good centers aren't available. I still think the Rockets were crazy to move on from Capela as eagerly as they did. But centers like Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Adebayo or Gobert aren't available to acquire. Even someone like Valanciunas I don't think Memphis would trade. He's proven year after year his value despite his teams' always seeming to want to replace him.

Our dynasty years convinced a lot of fans that centers should be deprioritized but not even our FO believes that.

Draymond is our center, he’s just small. I know no one wants to admit it but the numbers constantly bear out his best position is center. Maybe he can play with a shooting center that can switch. Not many of those out there.
Most 4th Quarter Points in Final since 1991
1995 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5
2000 Shaquille O'Neal 11.5 (61.1% TS)
2015 Stephen Curry 10.8 (75.1% TS)
1997 Michael Jordan 10.7 (55.1% TS)
1998 Michael Jordan 10.6 (50.6% TS)
2011 Dirk Nowitzki 10.3 (68.0% TS)

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