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WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1

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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1761 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:19 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
GQ Hot Dog wrote:I have a question for all you criticizing the Warriors prioritizing the development of Wiseman this past season: Did the teams with the poorest centers make the playoffs this year?


Vucevic didn't make it did he? Drummond was on the Cavaliers for most of the year and he didn't exactly look like he was helping the Lakers. Karl Anthony Towns. Christian Wood rates highly by some metrics.

On the other hand it seems the Nets don't exactly need a center. Is Blake a center? I was suggesting targeting him but was scoffed at by many here. If the Dubs need a center it makes more sense that they acquire one rather than develop one.


Vucevic, Drummond and KAT are three of the worst defensive centers in the NBA and so it's no coincidence their teams didn't make the playoffs. If Wiseman is in that category, picking him would have been a mistake.

The Nets are the single outlier in exactly the same way we were the outlier for 3 years with KD. We proved that you can win championships playing small-ball as long as you have an overwhelming level of offensive talent. Blake isn't a center and wouldn't be useful against an actual center. Luckily for the Nets their first round matchup had an injured and otherwise mediocre starting center. In the second round, while Lopez is useful he's not the sort of offensive player that can take advantage of Griffin's lack of size.

It doesn't make sense for the Warriors to acquire one because good centers aren't available. I still think the Rockets were crazy to move on from Capela as eagerly as they did. But centers like Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Adebayo or Gobert aren't available to acquire. Even someone like Valanciunas I don't think Memphis would trade. He's proven year after year his value despite his teams' always seeming to want to replace him.

Our dynasty years convinced a lot of fans that centers should be deprioritized but not even our FO believes that.


Part of it is that pretty much the ONLY place you can get a center that plays offense and defense without giving away the team to get them is a top 5 pick in the draft and wait while they develop.

There are flukes, but they are VERY rare and they don't tend to have extended peaks in their careers.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1762 » by GQ Hot Dog » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:33 pm

Onus wrote:
GQ Hot Dog wrote:
WarriorGM wrote:
Vucevic didn't make it did he? Drummond was on the Cavaliers for most of the year and he didn't exactly look like he was helping the Lakers. Karl Anthony Towns. Christian Wood rates highly by some metrics.

On the other hand it seems the Nets don't exactly need a center. Is Blake a center? I was suggesting targeting him but was scoffed at by many here. If the Dubs need a center it makes more sense that they acquire one rather than develop one.


Vucevic, Drummond and KAT are three of the worst defensive centers in the NBA and so it's no coincidence their teams didn't make the playoffs. If Wiseman is in that category, picking him would have been a mistake.

The Nets are the single outlier in exactly the same way we were the outlier for 3 years with KD. We proved that you can win championships playing small-ball as long as you have an overwhelming level of offensive talent. Blake isn't a center and wouldn't be useful against an actual center. Luckily for the Nets their first round matchup had an injured and otherwise mediocre starting center. In the second round, while Lopez is useful he's not the sort of offensive player that can take advantage of Griffin's lack of size.

It doesn't make sense for the Warriors to acquire one because good centers aren't available. I still think the Rockets were crazy to move on from Capela as eagerly as they did. But centers like Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Adebayo or Gobert aren't available to acquire. Even someone like Valanciunas I don't think Memphis would trade. He's proven year after year his value despite his teams' always seeming to want to replace him.

Our dynasty years convinced a lot of fans that centers should be deprioritized but not even our FO believes that.

Draymond is our center, he’s just small. I know no one wants to admit it but the numbers constantly bear out his best position is center. Maybe he can play with a shooting center that can switch. Not many of those out there.


Draymond's numbers at center are by default. He's not capable of playing center full time or even the majority of his minutes and Kerr has made that point from the beginning of small-ball. We need to stop relying on small-ball if we want to resume winning championships and unless one of the aforementioned centers becomes available, Wiseman is our best bet.

It's why I don't understand any of the criticism of the FO or Kerr. We were never going to win the chip this year unless Wiseman broke out in a big way. He didn't and so we weren't going to be competing at that level no matter what the FO or Kerr did. Criticism in this vein is the definition of specious.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1763 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:39 pm

Great 2 way centers of the last 20 years and where they were drafted:
David Robinson - 1
Alonzo Mourning - 2
Joel Embiid - 3
Yao Ming - 1
Dwight Howard - 1
Shaq - 1

One player on that list came in as a teenager and that was Howard, and while his defense was much better than Wiseman's his offense was worse.

Marc Gasol is an outlier but he didn't play in the NBA until he was 24 years old and didn't get over 15ppg until he was 30 ... and you guys are in a hurry.

You want a good 2 way center? You pretty much have to draft high and wait or trade away your team for the one a decade that becomes available for trade.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1764 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:40 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
Onus wrote:
GQ Hot Dog wrote:
Vucevic, Drummond and KAT are three of the worst defensive centers in the NBA and so it's no coincidence their teams didn't make the playoffs. If Wiseman is in that category, picking him would have been a mistake.

The Nets are the single outlier in exactly the same way we were the outlier for 3 years with KD. We proved that you can win championships playing small-ball as long as you have an overwhelming level of offensive talent. Blake isn't a center and wouldn't be useful against an actual center. Luckily for the Nets their first round matchup had an injured and otherwise mediocre starting center. In the second round, while Lopez is useful he's not the sort of offensive player that can take advantage of Griffin's lack of size.

It doesn't make sense for the Warriors to acquire one because good centers aren't available. I still think the Rockets were crazy to move on from Capela as eagerly as they did. But centers like Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Adebayo or Gobert aren't available to acquire. Even someone like Valanciunas I don't think Memphis would trade. He's proven year after year his value despite his teams' always seeming to want to replace him.

Our dynasty years convinced a lot of fans that centers should be deprioritized but not even our FO believes that.

Draymond is our center, he’s just small. I know no one wants to admit it but the numbers constantly bear out his best position is center. Maybe he can play with a shooting center that can switch. Not many of those out there.


Draymond's numbers at center are by default. He's not capable of playing center full time or even the majority of his minutes and Kerr has made that point from the beginning of small-ball. We need to stop relying on small-ball if we want to resume winning championships and unless one of the aforementioned centers becomes available, Wiseman is our best bet.

It's why I don't understand any of the criticism of the FO or Kerr. We were never going to win the chip this year unless Wiseman broke out in a big way. He didn't and so we weren't going to be competing at that level no matter what the FO or Kerr did. Criticism in this vein is the definition of specious.


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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1765 » by Onus » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:53 pm

GQ Hot Dog wrote:
Onus wrote:
GQ Hot Dog wrote:
Vucevic, Drummond and KAT are three of the worst defensive centers in the NBA and so it's no coincidence their teams didn't make the playoffs. If Wiseman is in that category, picking him would have been a mistake.

The Nets are the single outlier in exactly the same way we were the outlier for 3 years with KD. We proved that you can win championships playing small-ball as long as you have an overwhelming level of offensive talent. Blake isn't a center and wouldn't be useful against an actual center. Luckily for the Nets their first round matchup had an injured and otherwise mediocre starting center. In the second round, while Lopez is useful he's not the sort of offensive player that can take advantage of Griffin's lack of size.

It doesn't make sense for the Warriors to acquire one because good centers aren't available. I still think the Rockets were crazy to move on from Capela as eagerly as they did. But centers like Embiid, Jokic, Ayton, Adebayo or Gobert aren't available to acquire. Even someone like Valanciunas I don't think Memphis would trade. He's proven year after year his value despite his teams' always seeming to want to replace him.

Our dynasty years convinced a lot of fans that centers should be deprioritized but not even our FO believes that.

Draymond is our center, he’s just small. I know no one wants to admit it but the numbers constantly bear out his best position is center. Maybe he can play with a shooting center that can switch. Not many of those out there.


Draymond's numbers at center are by default. He's not capable of playing center full time or even the majority of his minutes and Kerr has made that point from the beginning of small-ball. We need to stop relying on small-ball if we want to resume winning championships and unless one of the aforementioned centers becomes available, Wiseman is our best bet.

It's why I don't understand any of the criticism of the FO or Kerr. We were never going to win the chip this year unless Wiseman broke out in a big way. He didn't and so we weren't going to be competing at that level no matter what the FO or Kerr did. Criticism in this vein is the definition of specious.

He's not capable of playing center full time, but when we close he's going to have to play center because of his non-existent offensive game. So we just need someone who can eat up minutes at the center position.

If you want to stop relying on small ball you need someone to replace Draymond. Good Luck!

If we're going to give up just because Klay isn't here we may as well just blow it up. Seems like everyone that is saying we weren't going to win this year anyway should be saying trade everyone, blow it up, we don't stand a chance anyway. The Nets are going to run through the East with Harden and Dinwiddie on the bench much better than Klay and Wiseman. What's the point of even playing for next year? Steph and Draymond aren't good enough. Klay is coming off an achilles and acl tear, who knows what he's going to be like. We stand no chance.

LMAO. Imagine having an MVP player and a DPOY candidate and saying we stand no chance. But then waiting on a broken down Klay who won't even be ready at the start of the season to become title contenders. This is really the crux of your argument.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1766 » by WarriorGM » Fri Jun 11, 2021 6:58 pm

Scoots1994 wrote:Great 2 way centers of the last 20 years and where they were drafted:
David Robinson - 1
Alonzo Mourning - 2
Joel Embiid - 3
Yao Ming - 1
Dwight Howard - 1
Shaq - 1

One player on that list came in as a teenager and that was Howard, and while his defense was much better than Wiseman's his offense was worse.

Marc Gasol is an outlier but he didn't play in the NBA until he was 24 years old and didn't get over 15ppg until he was 30 ... and you guys are in a hurry.

You want a good 2 way center? You pretty much have to draft high and wait or trade away your team for the one a decade that becomes available for trade.


Sorry I don't get what the argument here is. Shaq is the only one of the above who led a team to a championship. The Gasol example merely shows it might be better to take a shot at a late blooming prospect which also makes more sense since we are in a hurry.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1767 » by EvanZ » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:07 pm

Nikola Jokic literally just won an MVP after being a second round pick and we're talking about drafting centers from two decades ago.

Nice talk guys.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1768 » by Mob Byers » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:09 pm

EvanZ wrote:Nikola Jokic literally just won an MVP after being a second round pick and we're talking about drafting centers from two decades ago.

Nice talk guys.


Wiseman year 1 vs Jokic year 1 actually not too far off. We are in business

Plus, there's not arguing Wiseman had a tougher rookie season. I like it EvanZ, looks like we got a future MVP on our hands
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1769 » by GSWFan1994 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:54 pm

EvanZ wrote:Nikola Jokic literally just won an MVP after being a second round pick and we're talking about drafting centers from two decades ago.

Nice talk guys.


Amazing.

You pick up the single biggest exception to the rule in the history of the NBA, and make it sound like it's the rule itself.

Nice talk, Evan.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1770 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 11:20 pm

GSWFan1994 wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Nikola Jokic literally just won an MVP after being a second round pick and we're talking about drafting centers from two decades ago.

Nice talk guys.


Amazing.

You pick up the single biggest exception to the rule in the history of the NBA, and make it sound like it's the rule itself.

Nice talk, Evan.


And Jokic isn't a two-way player, he's amazing on offense and barely okay on defense.

And I volunteered Marc Gasol, so it's not like I didn't know about exceptions.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1771 » by EvanZ » Sat Jun 12, 2021 12:53 am

Mob Byers wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Nikola Jokic literally just won an MVP after being a second round pick and we're talking about drafting centers from two decades ago.

Nice talk guys.


Wiseman year 1 vs Jokic year 1 actually not too far off. We are in business

Plus, there's not arguing Wiseman had a tougher rookie season. I like it EvanZ, looks like we got a future MVP on our hands


Jokic had a start to his career much like Draymond. He had to beat out Nurkic and ended up forcing Denver to trade him because they saw the talent.

Wiseman was handed the keys to the car but we found out he needs to go to Drivers Ed first. Their situations are nothing alike.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1772 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 5:19 pm

He was pratfalling his way to 11&6 without having a clue what he's doing out there. Scoring is going to come easy. Rebounds will happen as long as he's not constantly roaming the perimeter switched onto guards. The stuff he was doing when the game started to slow down right before his injury was effortlessly and fluidly productive. Learning the scheme and the reorienting to NBA speed are the biggest priorities for this year.

He can do a ton of film room work while waiting to get back on the court.

I hope they don't start him for motivation purposes but I would fully expect him to give us no choice but to be starting again by the all Star break.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1773 » by Scoots1994 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:38 pm

Sleepy51 wrote:He was pratfalling his way to 11&6 without having a clue what he's doing out there. Scoring is going to come easy. Rebounds will happen as long as he's not constantly roaming the perimeter switched onto guards. The stuff he was doing when the game started to slow down right before his injury was effortlessly and fluidly productive. Learning the scheme and the reorienting to NBA speed are the biggest priorities for this year.

He can do a ton of film room work while waiting to get back on the court.

I hope they don't start him for motivation purposes but I would fully expect him to give us no choice but to be starting again by the all Star break.


The whole team was out of rhythm early in the season, just as it was starting to come together he got hurt.

Right now I hope he gets 100%, puts on some muscle, and spends a lot of time learning the game (film and coaching).

I also hope they bring in a vet who will push him for the starting job. I had hoped Chriss would win it last year but it wasn't to be.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1774 » by GSWFan1994 » Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:45 pm

Wiseman is going to be amazing for us once he settles in.

I've been following the NBA for 30 years now. I know a great player when I see one. I may be wrong, but as they say here in Brazil, "I trust my nose".

Wiseman has all the makings of a future perennial All-Star... in 3/4 years from now.

I predict many posts making fun of Clyde, Evan and all the others "experts".

But not by me. I never make fun of anyone.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1775 » by EvanZ » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:23 am

GSWFan1994 wrote:Wiseman is going to be amazing for us once he settles in.


Hopefully he does...for some other team.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1776 » by ahmetmekin » Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:37 am

GSWFan1994 wrote:Wiseman is going to be amazing for us once he settles in.

I've been following the NBA for 30 years now. I know a great player when I see one. I may be wrong, but as they say here in Brazil, "I trust my nose".

Wiseman has all the makings of a future perennial All-Star... in 3/4 years from now.

I predict many posts making fun of Clyde, Evan and all the others "experts".

But not by me. I never make fun of anyone.

This is pretty much the only argument for Wiseman's greatness.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1777 » by Scoots1994 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:13 am

ahmetmekin wrote:
GSWFan1994 wrote:Wiseman is going to be amazing for us once he settles in.

I've been following the NBA for 30 years now. I know a great player when I see one. I may be wrong, but as they say here in Brazil, "I trust my nose".

Wiseman has all the makings of a future perennial All-Star... in 3/4 years from now.

I predict many posts making fun of Clyde, Evan and all the others "experts".

But not by me. I never make fun of anyone.

This is pretty much the only argument for Wiseman's greatness.


Not really. We can look at many factors:

Facts:
- Size
- Length
- Speed
- Explosion
- Age

Analysis:
- Dedication/Drive
- Flashes of skill in shooting, handling, defense

Drafting him was no question a risk, but that is done, giving up now when there is still considerable reason to have hope would be flat out stupid. People talk like Wiseman being on the roster is going to hurt the team winning. If he sucks the Warriors don't have to play him no NBA team plays all 15 players in minutes that matter, but to not give him anything close to an offseason/minicamps/coaching/time to learn as a teenage big? That's just nuts.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1778 » by ahmetmekin » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:47 am

Scoots1994 wrote:
ahmetmekin wrote:
GSWFan1994 wrote:Wiseman is going to be amazing for us once he settles in.

I've been following the NBA for 30 years now. I know a great player when I see one. I may be wrong, but as they say here in Brazil, "I trust my nose".

Wiseman has all the makings of a future perennial All-Star... in 3/4 years from now.

I predict many posts making fun of Clyde, Evan and all the others "experts".

But not by me. I never make fun of anyone.

This is pretty much the only argument for Wiseman's greatness.


Not really. We can look at many factors:

Facts:
- Size
- Length
- Speed
- Explosion
- Age

Analysis:
- Dedication/Drive
- Flashes of skill in shooting, handling, defense

Drafting him was no question a risk, but that is done, giving up now when there is still considerable reason to have hope would be flat out stupid. People talk like Wiseman being on the roster is going to hurt the team winning. If he sucks the Warriors don't have to play him no NBA team plays all 15 players in minutes that matter, but to not give him anything close to an offseason/minicamps/coaching/time to learn as a teenage big? That's just nuts.

There is no flashes of any skill. He is not doing anything at a respectable rate. He is a horrendous player on both sides. He is tall, I will give you that. It will definitely hurt the team like this year if he plays.
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1779 » by marthafokker » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:54 am

Again.... OKC gave up on a crappy rookie whom got groomed and played big in College. He showed even less than Wiseman.

You think OKC wants him back?
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Re: WISEMAN EXPECTATIONS: Year 1 

Post#1780 » by Scoots1994 » Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:00 pm

ahmetmekin wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
ahmetmekin wrote:This is pretty much the only argument for Wiseman's greatness.


Not really. We can look at many factors:

Facts:
- Size
- Length
- Speed
- Explosion
- Age

Analysis:
- Dedication/Drive
- Flashes of skill in shooting, handling, defense

Drafting him was no question a risk, but that is done, giving up now when there is still considerable reason to have hope would be flat out stupid. People talk like Wiseman being on the roster is going to hurt the team winning. If he sucks the Warriors don't have to play him no NBA team plays all 15 players in minutes that matter, but to not give him anything close to an offseason/minicamps/coaching/time to learn as a teenage big? That's just nuts.

There is no flashes of any skill. He is not doing anything at a respectable rate. He is a horrendous player on both sides. He is tall, I will give you that. It will definitely hurt the team like this year if he plays.


He's inconsistent and often lost and those things hurt his stats. "Flashes" by definition is a short bright spot, not continuous over a long period of time. That you are saying essentially that you never saw any moments of skill in his game makes me think you either were not watching or were hate watching.

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