Wake me up when Wiseman is better than Damian Jones

[kingcong95]

A minor quibble, the TPE alone wouldn't have been enough for Lavine at 19.5M.
As for who the target was at 4, my money is on Haliburton, then use the mid level to find an extra body at center.

[Old_Blue]

A minor quibble, the TPE alone wouldn't have been enough for Lavine at 19.5M.
As for who the target was at 4, my money is on Haliburton, then use the mid level to find an extra body at center.

Haliburton at #4 would have been a reach. Yes, I know that were the draft held today, Haliburton would go at least that high. But, on draft day, Haliburton wasn't projected to go that high. At the time, I remember thinking how sweet it would have been to trade down from #2 to #4 and then trade down again to the #8 to #10 range to get either Haliburton or Vassell. If the story about LaMelo being told by the Warriors that they were going to draft him at #2 is true, then the Warriors were clearly working on something. Maybe the Wendell Carter plus the #4 pick story circulating at the time was true and the Warriors lingered on that offer up until the time they were on the clock. If that's the case though, then it suggests the Warriors had significant and lasting doubts about Wiseman...right up until draft day. Too bad they didn't act on their gut. We could easily have walked away with Carter, Haliburton and a future draft pick as compensation for moving further down from #4 to the #8 to #10 range.

[lars_rosenberg]

A minor quibble, the TPE alone wouldn't have been enough for Lavine at 19.5M.
As for who the target was at 4, my money is on Haliburton, then use the mid level to find an extra body at center.

Haliburton at #4 would have been a reach. Yes, I know that were the draft held today, Haliburton would go at least that high. But, on draft day, Haliburton wasn't projected to go that high. At the time, I remember thinking how sweet it would have been to trade down from #2 to #4 and then trade down again to the #8 to #10 range to get either Haliburton or Vassell. If the story about LaMelo being told by the Warriors that they were going to draft him at #2 is true, then the Warriors were clearly working on something. Maybe the Wendell Carter plus the #4 pick story circulating at the time was true and the Warriors lingered on that offer up until the time they were on the clock. If that's the case though, then it suggests the Warriors had significant and lasting doubts about Wiseman...right up until draft day. Too bad they didn't act on their gut. We could easily have walked away with Carter, Haliburton and a future draft pick as compensation for moving further down from #4 to the #8 to #10 range.

Haliburton was actually ranked 4th best talent by many before the draft. He was projected at 6-8 in most mock drafts and never ever so low as he eventually fell. I still don't understand why he wasn't picked before, he was called the sleeper of the draft by many people even at 6-8. At 12 it was highway robbery.

[xdrta+]

Warriors lost their depth when the signed KD. How many teams have 4 max players.

Yeah, it only got them a couple of rings, but no depth!

[michaelm]

I worry he had some nice instincts defensively and Draymond has sort of snuffed him out. Watching him now he looks like a high school freshman getting blown by with his two hands in the air (because Draymond said "never jump").

Hope it's not the case....but he did look much better in game 10 than he looks now.

I tend to agree with this and with Coxy’s similar post about Wiseman being over coached.

Green is a basketball genius who has more than made the most of what he has, but Wiseman has been bountifully gifted with what Green doesn’t have, 6 or 7 inches of height for a start and considerably more raw athleticism. Even Bogut who mentored Green who was never the fluid athlete Wiseman is had lost much of what he initially had to injuries and was compensating with basketball smarts by the time he connected with Green. Sure we would like Wiseman to play smart, but he probably doesn’t have any physical deficiencies which he needs to compensate for once he he gets his destined full strength. Durant might be the better player to advise him, but GSW don’t have him and wouldn’t have Wiseman if they still did have KD.

[The-Power]

Haliburton at #4 would have been a reach. Yes, I know that were the draft held today, Haliburton would go at least that high. But, on draft day, Haliburton wasn't projected to go that high.

A lot of people had Haliburton that high (I had him 2nd or 3rd as well). Especially at 4, I doubt many people would have considered him a reach – or, if you want to, everybody drafted at 4 would have been considered a reach by a number of people.

[East Bay Sports]

sir this is a wendys

[wupuck]

I think people who want to trade wiseman for a quick fix clearly weren't here for the RunTMC days let alone any part of the Cohan era (More like nightmare-ah). Even the lack of patience with him now tells me that you're not familiar w/ how difficult it is for Big men to come into the league let alone 19 yr old rookies.

Really I'd like the dubs to keep the current squad, unless an upgrade can be made via sign and trade w/ Oubre or Wiggins with the intention of keeping the other.

I think next year when Klay gets back, having Wiggins come off the bench and a starting 5 of Curry-Klay-Oubre-Draymond-Wiseman would be fun to watch if not highly effective.

Yes it's not my money to spend and that would put Lacob and ownership in a cap hell that I couldn't fathom but at least he's doing whatever he can as an owner to give the team a chance to win the championship again.

ONLY way Id be willing to trade Wiseman+ other assets is if Giannis or AD or some other significant big man is coming back the other way.

I DON'T want a Beal or other guard coming back as this team is to small as is.

Enjoy this Dubs fans, Hopefully they can extend the window a bit but i'm pretty confident Lacob will allow Myers to do whatever it takes to keep this team in contention for championships.

[clyde21]

i don't want to trade Wiseman for a 'quick fix', I want to trade Wiseman for a legitimate young piece that not only fits this personnel but also our system, although the cat might be out of the bag on this one, a lot of the pieces we could have had at some point are probably off the table for now.

[Warriors Analyst]

i don't want to trade Wiseman for a 'quick fix', I want to trade Wiseman for a legitimate young piece that not only fits this personnel but also our system, although the cat might be out of the bag on this one, a lot of the pieces we could have had at some point are probably off the table for now.

Wiseman's value is only going to go down as he approaches his rookie extension unless he goes on an absolute tear. You're spot on. The cat is out of the bag.

[sonnyhill]

This talk of trading Wiseman, a player with lots of upside, for a "quick fix" makes no sense.

If the front office determines that Steph, Klay, and Draymond are not a core which can compete for championships, then the team should look to get maximal value and trade away Steph, Klay, and Draymond. This type of move would be a complete rebuild. While painful for sentimentalists, we have an ownership group (led by Joe Lacob) which has a philosophy of competing for championships, and they would take whatever actions required to keep the Warriors relevant as an upper echelon team.

I would rather see the discussions of James Wiseman on this board focusing on what he and team need to do to improve his game (lots to do). And, oh, by-the-way, a big part of Wiseman's development will be something as simple as getting him more playing time. We will, at times, become frustrated with Wiseman's mistakes (defense, rebounding, turnovers, etc.); however, we will also see (barring injuries) his game evolve-and-devlop.

Lastly, the Warriors may probably regret having not drafted LaMelo Ball; however, James Wiseman is better than Damian Jones (this is not debatable).

[WarriorGM]

When I started this thread it was partly meant to be facetious. But let's get specific.

In what way is Wiseman better than Damian Jones?

It's unclear to me what Wiseman is supposed to be. Is he supposed to be Rudy Gobert? Is he supposed to be David Robinson?

If he's supposed to be Gobert, then the team is gambling a bit because Wiseman didn't exactly show that much defensive ability in his pre-NBA career and is showing all the mistakes we've seen made previously by Damian Jones. If he's supposed to be David Robinson one might ask if Robinson would be the ideal kind of center for the current era.

I assume Wiseman will get better but it isn't obvious to me yet the team or anybody else for that matter really knows where it wants to go with him. Everyone is just hoping he'll be better and that will justify everything whatever "better" means.

[sonnyhill]

When I started this thread it was partly meant to be facetious. But let's get specific.

In what way is Wiseman better than Damian Jones?

It's unclear to me what Wiseman is supposed to be. Is he supposed to be Rudy Gobert? Is he supposed to be David Robinson?

If he's supposed to be Gobert, then the team is gambling a bit because Wiseman didn't exactly show that much defensive ability in his pre-NBA career and is showing all the mistakes we've seen made previously by Damian Jones. If he's supposed to be David Robinson one might ask if Robinson would be the ideal kind of center for the current era.

I assume Wiseman will get better but it isn't obvious to me yet the team or anybody else for that matter really knows where it wants to go with him. Everyone is just hoping he'll be better and that will justify everything whatever "better" means.

WarriorGM, great thread and really great post.

Wiseman handles the ball better than Damian Jones; Wiseman finishes the break better than Damian Jones; Wiseman shoots the ball at both mid-range and from the three-point line better than Damian Jones. Yes, Jones is a better rebounder, better help and one-on-one defender.

I do not see Wiseman being a Rudy Gobert nor a David Robinson, yet (not strong enough), at this point of his development. I do see Wiseman being a modern version of Ralph Sampson (hopefully, without the injuries), a multi-dimensional All Star.

Let's face it....Wiseman is only 19-years old, has played only 3 NCAA college games, had no Summer League nor a "normal" camp and pre-season, and it shows. If we can see Wiseman develop his hands, go after rebounds better (both defensive and offensive), and improve both one-on-one and help defense, the team will get great utility out of him.

[and1GS]

At his peak Jones averaged 5 and 3 with a block.

At his floor James is averaging 12 and 6 with one block.

And before someone says James gets way more PT, he is averaging 4 more mpg. This was/is a bad thread and any attempts to rationalize it just come off as silly.

[cpower]

At his peak Jones averaged 5 and 3 with a block.

At his floor James is averaging 12 and 6 with one block.

And before someone says James gets way more PT, he is averaging 4 more mpg. This was/is a bad thread and any attempts to rationalize it just come off as silly.

you are actually pointing out the issue here. he is putting up more attempts with worse efficiency while not doing much other than scoring. if he actually looking to set screens, making passing and defending the paint he would be a massive better player than he is right now. lower PPG is more preferred for todays big man unless you are embiid and jokic where the offense is designed aound them.

[FNQ]

i don't want to trade Wiseman for a 'quick fix', I want to trade Wiseman for a legitimate young piece that not only fits this personnel but also our system, although the cat might be out of the bag on this one, a lot of the pieces we could have had at some point are probably off the table for now.

Literally no one has asked to trade him for a quick fix, total strawman

[and1GS]

At his peak Jones averaged 5 and 3 with a block.

At his floor James is averaging 12 and 6 with one block.

And before someone says James gets way more PT, he is averaging 4 more mpg. This was/is a bad thread and any attempts to rationalize it just come off as silly.

you are actually pointing out the issue here. he is putting up more attempts with worse efficiency while not doing much other than scoring. if he actually looking to set screens, making passing and defending the paint he would be a massive better player than he is right now. lower PPG is more preferred for todays big man unless you are embiid and jokic where the offense is designed aound them.

Are lower RPG totals also preferred for 'today's big man'?

Come on dude...

[shazam_guy]

I've absented myself from Wiseman conversations because of just this sort of thing. Instead of being excited that we have a seven-footer with so much upside, we're supposed to know now what he's going to be and maybe trade him based on what he might NOT be. Because obviously, despite five straight finals and three titles, the Warriors organization doesn't know what they're doing.

It's crazy. But it's how fandom works. Which is why this is the only fan board I'm on. In my own profession I avoid them like the plague, because everybody has a firm belief, everybody's certain they know more than anyone else, and the arguments are generally like two fat men in one bathtub fighting over the soap -- not pretty and not instructive.

At least here we occasionally get some good, sensible basketball talk. Just not as often as I'd like.

I have nothing against Damian Jones, but the idea of even comparing him to Wiseman is going to seem so silly in a year or two.

[The411]

i don't want to trade Wiseman for a 'quick fix', I want to trade Wiseman for a legitimate young piece that not only fits this personnel but also our system, although the cat might be out of the bag on this one, a lot of the pieces we could have had at some point are probably off the table for now.

Literally no one has asked to trade him for a quick fix, total strawman

That's not true there have been people saying package him for Bradley Beal, which literally makes zero sense. Adding Bradley Beal to this team with Klay returning doesn't win you a championship.

The types of players that one would trade Wiseman for aren't available.

The only player that might work is Jaylen Brown and I'm not sure that he's available and even if he somehow was it would be Wiseman +some cap+ 2021/2022 Min pick + Warriors 2021 first.

Is that really worth it?

[FNQ]

i don't want to trade Wiseman for a 'quick fix', I want to trade Wiseman for a legitimate young piece that not only fits this personnel but also our system, although the cat might be out of the bag on this one, a lot of the pieces we could have had at some point are probably off the table for now.

Literally no one has asked to trade him for a quick fix, total strawman

That's not true there have been people saying package him for Bradley Beal, which literally makes zero sense. Adding Bradley Beal to this team with Klay returning doesn't win you a championship.

The types of players that one would trade Wiseman for aren't available.

The only player that might work is Jaylen Brown and I'm not sure that he's available and even if he somehow was it would be Wiseman +some cap+ 2021/2022 Min pick + Warriors 2021 first.

Is that really worth it?

Bradley Beal, literal top 20 player, borderline superstar, going to a team that is severely lacking in guard skills... is a quick fix now.

Yall just rewrite definitions when you disagree with people, its straight lunacy sometimes.. yea, what would we do with an all-around great SG scoring at nearly 60% TS despite having one of the highest usage rates in the league.. maybe its his defensive metrics, which people have used to call him a bad defender, as he's the same defender he was a couple years ago when he was considered one of the best SG defenders..

But yeah Klay at SF just wouldn't work. It certainly didnt for the past 5 years when we ran smallball units with guys like Ian Clark, Shaun Livingston, Nick Young, and Pat McCaw and had just about the same rating splits.

But yes please tell me how Beal makes no sense like this whole thing hasnt debunked a dozen times.. this time I'm sure the "hes short!" argument will really land