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Wiggins or Siakam

Moderators: floppymoose, Sleepy51, Chris Porter's Hair

Which player makes a better 3rd option for the Warriors next year

1) Pascal Siakam
13
38%
2) Wiggins (already have him, knows Warriors system now)
9
26%
3) Pascal Siakam (but I wouldn't trade Wiggins and a first round pick for him)
12
35%
 
Total votes: 34

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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#21 » by gswhoop » Thu Jun 3, 2021 8:45 pm

Old_Blue wrote:Whoever trades for Siakam will be doing Toronto a favor. Boucher is already poised to take Siakam's spot for a fraction of the cost. Who would you rather have...Siakam for 3 years / $105 million or Boucher for 1 year / $7 million?



We gave up on Boucher too soon
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#22 » by DAWill1128 » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:30 pm

FNQ wrote:
DAWill1128 wrote:Only thing about Siakam is we would have Green, Siakam, and Paschall who all play power forward. Who plays small forward? Does Green or Siakam move to center? I don’t think Siakam can play small forward. Wiggins can guard 1-4. I don’t think Siakam has the hip wiggle to chase two guards off screens or get low enough to guard point guards.

I am cool with Wiggins taking the tough perimeter assignment, he’s got great conditioning, he’s young, fast, athletic. Thompson now taking the second best perimeter guy or wing, and Curry taking the lesser of the perimeter players.



Im not a huge fan of bringing Siakam in TBH but positionless basketball works in every way.. if we did swap Wiggins for Siakam, we could make it work.

I'd also argue against the idea that Wiggins can competently guard 4s. Also against the idea that Siakam isnt as versatile - he's a damned impressive defender.

But my issue is more that it doesnt really address any weaknesses we have, while likely costing more additional capital to make the trade. Assuming we werent making any other big deals (meaning this happens right before the start of next season), I'd entertain the idea of Wiggins for Siakam for a future 1st, but I really doubt TOR wants to make that happen. They had to deal with DeRozan already, and then trade for Wiggins a couple years later? Cant see Masai doing that.


I believe in positionless basketball in the way the Webber Kings started to introduce the idea of everyone being able to pass, dribble, shoot, and move without the ball. But defensively guys still matchup with what they can physically handle, that’s where positions still exist.

Siakam really isn’t a perimeter guy in my opinion like a wing, his level of dribbling, shooting, and moving on the perimeter without the ball is just not on Wiggins level. He is best suited at power forward where Dray plays. Siakam shot the ball 29% from 3 last year, Dray shot 27%. Even with Klay back I cannot imagine have two guys at both forward spots shooting under 30%. Wiggins shot the ball at 38% from 3, that’s an actual weak side - safety valve level shooter. I don’t want less shooting. Maybe it works if Wiseman looks great from 3.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#23 » by Scoots1994 » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:46 pm

gswhoop wrote:
Old_Blue wrote:Whoever trades for Siakam will be doing Toronto a favor. Boucher is already poised to take Siakam's spot for a fraction of the cost. Who would you rather have...Siakam for 3 years / $105 million or Boucher for 1 year / $7 million?



We gave up on Boucher too soon


Most NBA teams give up on raw young talent too soon. It's hard to keep raw players around with injuries and needing that safety blanket of vets on the bench.

The NBA should go to 5 2-way deals per team ... or maybe have 2 2-way deals and 3 higher paid but still limited player contracts available.

The NBA wants to get better and the best way to do that is to get teams to develop more talent.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#24 » by ILOVEIT » Thu Jun 3, 2021 9:52 pm

FNQ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:
Currygoat wrote:Siakam and it’s not even close


From 2021

PS - 22pts, 7 rbs, 4 assists - 45% from 2 and 29% from 3 (prior year shot 35% from 3)
AW - 18 pts, 5 rbs, 2 assists - 47% from 2 and 38% from 3

Not even close?


Counting stats is a horrible way to evaluate a player. Fans from a team that featured Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette should know this..

lol...true. However...the eye test also told me that bad porn was an empty stat collector and Monta gave away as much as he offered every night he was on the floor.

But then tell me what your eye test tells you? For me I saw a very solid to very good two way Wigs....getting better most of the season and showing up in the bigger games down the stretch.

With Siakam I see a guy that tried to do it as a #2 option behind Lowry and struggled a lot....

Not saying Siakam wouldn't be good and helpful on the Warriors. I'm saying it is close....and if it IS close...then I'm not trading a younger player with less years on the contract AND Wiseaman or a top pick.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#25 » by FNQ » Thu Jun 3, 2021 10:04 pm

ILOVEIT wrote:
FNQ wrote:
ILOVEIT wrote:
From 2021

PS - 22pts, 7 rbs, 4 assists - 45% from 2 and 29% from 3 (prior year shot 35% from 3)
AW - 18 pts, 5 rbs, 2 assists - 47% from 2 and 38% from 3

Not even close?


Counting stats is a horrible way to evaluate a player. Fans from a team that featured Monta Ellis and Corey Maggette should know this..

lol...true. However...the eye test also told me that bad porn was an empty stat collector and Monta gave away as much as he offered every night he was on the floor.

But then tell me what your eye test tells you? For me I saw a very solid to very good two way Wigs....getting better most of the season and showing up in the bigger games down the stretch.

With Siakam I see a guy that tried to do it as a #2 option behind Lowry and struggled a lot....

Not saying Siakam wouldn't be good and helpful on the Warriors. I'm saying it is close....and if it IS close...then I'm not trading a younger player with less years on the contract AND Wiseaman or a top pick.


Well I agree with the conclusion. I dont want to include anything too valuable in making the change.

With Wiggins, I saw a great perimeter defender (motion capture metrics LOVE him but old metrics dont) and a very average offensive player. Which is still very useful for sure. However by those same metrics, they didnt love him the second Curry wasnt on the floor. So I dont think its close with Wiggins and Siakam because Siakam has never had a Curry to steal focus, and Lowry simply isn't that guy (nor is FVV)

I think Siakam is as good, if not better, on defense, and I think hes the more versatile defender too. I think both players are in the Ron Artest mold of someone who's going to make their hay defensively, and wont kill you offensively. But I do believe Siakam has offensive upside that Wiggins doesnt, unless Wiggins' mental makeup changes drastically.

But like I said earlier.. if it costs MIN 1st, no. GS 1st 2021, unlikely (maybe tho, depending on how the MIN 1st goes). And a future pick means probably yes for me, depending on protections, how far out, etc etc.

I like Wiggins a lot, but I think Siakam is getting the exact same crap Wiggins did by fans who had higher expectations and then hate the player for not meeting them. Siakam was supposed to be the Raps #1 player, and he's just not that guy. But as a 2nd/3rd option, he was an impact player. I dont think Wiggins has ever gotten to that level
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#26 » by floppymoose » Thu Jun 3, 2021 10:20 pm

Siakam is way way better. I'd gladly exchange Wiggins and our 1st rounder. I don't see Toronto accepting.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#27 » by Crazy-Canuck » Thu Jun 3, 2021 11:51 pm

A wiggin/Siakem swap has hidden costs.

Siakem is not a wing. Hes a 4. If you give up Wiggs + an asset, you just double up on bigs while creating a much bigger hole on the perimeter.

Klays health is uncertain. Poole cant be expected to guard 1 through 3. Now we get stuck giving Baze/Oubre the long term deal they want or make another deal for a good 2 way wing (which is near impossible to get).
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#28 » by floppymoose » Thu Jun 3, 2021 11:59 pm

Good bigs are hard to find. Lee can fill Wiggins shoes. A Siakam/Green/Looney frontline is a huge upgrade.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#29 » by whatisacenter » Fri Jun 4, 2021 12:04 am

Scoots1994 wrote:
gswhoop wrote:
Old_Blue wrote:Whoever trades for Siakam will be doing Toronto a favor. Boucher is already poised to take Siakam's spot for a fraction of the cost. Who would you rather have...Siakam for 3 years / $105 million or Boucher for 1 year / $7 million?



We gave up on Boucher too soon


Most NBA teams give up on raw young talent too soon. It's hard to keep raw players around with injuries and needing that safety blanket of vets on the bench.

The NBA should go to 5 2-way deals per team ... or maybe have 2 2-way deals and 3 higher paid but still limited player contracts available.

The NBA wants to get better and the best way to do that is to get teams to develop more talent.



Fun fact: Boucher is 28 yo and older than Wiggins. The warriors had him in 17-18 when they in the finals and every year and had no use for him as he was unproven and coming off an injury. He finally got consistent minutes this season and proved to be an nba player. Were the Warriors supposed to keep him on the roster all these years?
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#30 » by watch1958 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 12:10 am

Also, though Siakim is older, Wiggins has played more than twice as many NBA minutes.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#31 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 1:58 am

floppymoose wrote:Good bigs are hard to find.

True dat

floppymoose wrote:Lee can fill Wiggins shoes.

What the everloving f :censored: are you drinking?

floppymoose wrote:A Siakam/Green/Looney frontline is a huge upgrade.

True dat
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#32 » by floppymoose » Fri Jun 4, 2021 3:36 am

Wiggins is dramatically overvalued on this board. And i like him fine. He defends. He is waaaay better than DLo. But the step up from no one to Siakam is much bigger than the step down from Wiggins to Lee.

In the death lineup, Siakam is replacing Wiggins.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#33 » by FNQ » Fri Jun 4, 2021 4:08 am

watch1958 wrote:Also, though Siakim is older, Wiggins has played more than twice as many NBA minutes.


In the grand scheme of things, this is extremely important

It means 2 very important things that are often just attributed to age: Siakam has less wear and tear on his body (accumulation) from playing at the NBA level, and Siakam has had less time to adjust and succeed at the NBA level (in game; 2 less years of experience off the bench)

From a potential standpoint - not sure how much it weighs into the decision though - Siakam appears to have a lot more potential upside. And I think he's better now as well, which is why I dont think its close. But I also wouldnt give up many assets to make the move, because why would we start emptying the chamber and worse yet, piecing out our picks? Save all the ammo for the big move, this is more like a 'the best we can do move'
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#34 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Jun 4, 2021 4:11 am

whatisacenter wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
gswhoop wrote:

We gave up on Boucher too soon


Most NBA teams give up on raw young talent too soon. It's hard to keep raw players around with injuries and needing that safety blanket of vets on the bench.

The NBA should go to 5 2-way deals per team ... or maybe have 2 2-way deals and 3 higher paid but still limited player contracts available.

The NBA wants to get better and the best way to do that is to get teams to develop more talent.



Fun fact: Boucher is 28 yo and older than Wiggins. The warriors had him in 17-18 when they in the finals and every year and had no use for him as he was unproven and coming off an injury. He finally got consistent minutes this season and proved to be an nba player. Were the Warriors supposed to keep him on the roster all these years?


I did say I was for the NBA expanding the roster to 20 for the longer term development projects, and Boucher was looking pretty good 2 years ago but the Raps didn't have minutes for him (the Warriors did by then).

My point was much more general than just about Boucher.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#35 » by Onus » Fri Jun 4, 2021 5:04 am

I’d empty the warchest for Siakam and og
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#36 » by PrinceAli » Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:28 pm

I wouldn’t give up Pascal for Wiggins and even the 6th pick to be quite honest. Only way I’d even consider it is if the Minny pick is 4th

Pascal is a far better player than Wiggins (I still love Wiggins). Siakam in a 2nd or 3rd option role easily increases his efficiency so comparing efficiency stats with Wiggins makes no sense. Put Wiggins in the role Siakam plays and his efficiency definitely drops too

Siakam struggled this year to start for multiple reasons: groin injury that he hadn’t fully recovered from the prior season, Raptors not being at home all season, and catching COVID and struggling to get back into form until later in the year

Once he finally got back to health he started showing his true self again (25.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.2 assists, 1.7 steals over the last 10 games on 48% and 33% from 3. 30,8,4 over the last 4 games)

He had a tough year but finally got back to full health when the season was coming to an end

Don’t see any scenario the Raptors deal him right now unless a significant offer comes along and taking on Wiggins contract without any real incentive that isn’t a top 5 pick isn’t it

Also OG is entirely off the table

I don’t think there’s really a deal to be made between our teams
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#37 » by WarriorGM » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:16 pm

I don't see a difference. Keep Wiggins. Wiggins knows the system already. Wiggins has a lower salary and is closer to free agency.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#38 » by ILOVEIT » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:01 pm

Fans always want the "two in the bush". Wiggins has PROVEN he can really help this team. Proved he is a big time wing defender while scoring 20 a night. Warriors were top 5 defense WITH him. Where would they have been without him? Likely 20th IMO.

Siakam is injured so it probably won't even matter at this point.....but we just love the guys we haven't watched every night because we IMAGINE they will solve it all.
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#39 » by FNQ » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:04 am

PrinceAli wrote:I wouldn’t give up Pascal for Wiggins and even the 6th pick to be quite honest. Only way I’d even consider it is if the Minny pick is 4th

Pascal is a far better player than Wiggins (I still love Wiggins). Siakam in a 2nd or 3rd option role easily increases his efficiency so comparing efficiency stats with Wiggins makes no sense. Put Wiggins in the role Siakam plays and his efficiency definitely drops too

Siakam struggled this year to start for multiple reasons: groin injury that he hadn’t fully recovered from the prior season, Raptors not being at home all season, and catching COVID and struggling to get back into form until later in the year

Once he finally got back to health he started showing his true self again (25.2 ppg, 7.7 rpg, 3.2 assists, 1.7 steals over the last 10 games on 48% and 33% from 3. 30,8,4 over the last 4 games)

He had a tough year but finally got back to full health when the season was coming to an end

Don’t see any scenario the Raptors deal him right now unless a significant offer comes along and taking on Wiggins contract without any real incentive that isn’t a top 5 pick isn’t it

Also OG is entirely off the table

I don’t think there’s really a deal to be made between our teams


Siakam hasnt really been in a #1 role. Maybe last year, but this year he's right on par with FVV. I hate the idea of 1A and 1B both being 1s, in reality its like a pair of 2s. Anyways..

I dont think he's going to win much as a true #2 option either. The efficiency dive between the championship year (20% usage) and the next 2 seasons (28%, 26%) paints that picture. Thats not to say that I disagree with the valuation, I just dont think he's going to be a winning #2 option either. I like him as a modern-day Metta World Peace, a guy who's disruptive defensively and good enough offensively. Pascal probably a little more offensive and a little less defensive than Artest, but still.

Great news on OG. Frankly the 3&D player has gone from undervalued to overvalued in the past few years. A player who's positive impact/effectiveness is so greatly tied into how teammates play.. I don't like sinking a ton of trade capital into that. Back in the day when you could get one of those types for a mid to late 1st, and the 2nd gen metrics swooned over them, they were a steal. Nowadays fans want borderline star returns for the same players. I'm fine with Wiggins in that role, especially considering we were given a top 7 draft pick to take him on in the first place.

The deal I want, and have wanted, is one where we get Boucher back. I'd still happily give up Looney and the #14 for Boucher, #45 & #46. We get a 20+ mpg C that can run and aligns with Curry/Klay's swan song, and we can use the 2 2nds to go for win-now type players (junior/seniors) that could possibly eat up some minutes next season. Or even someone like Sharpe (UNC, rebounding machine) & MJ Walker or Joey Ayayi to boot. TOR dodges paying Boucher his next contract and gets a late lotto pick for it :dontknow:
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Re: Wiggins or Siakam 

Post#40 » by FNQ » Tue Jun 15, 2021 5:18 am

ILOVEIT wrote:Fans always want the "two in the bush". Wiggins has PROVEN he can really help this team. Proved he is a big time wing defender while scoring 20 a night. Warriors were top 5 defense WITH him. Where would they have been without him? Likely 20th IMO.

Siakam is injured so it probably won't even matter at this point.....but we just love the guys we haven't watched every night because we IMAGINE they will solve it all.


Wiggins had a +2.47 DRPM this year.. and was a top 10 perimeter defender on 2 different player tracker sites. That said, he's not the key, and while we were worse defensively without him, he didnt *make* the team a top 5 defense. Draymond is still that guy, Looney had more of an impact there, even JTA had more of a per minute impact on defense. But he's clearly a very good defender. Not getting steals really impacts his BPM score - and DBPM devalues perimeter defense (accurately) against on-ball defenders and rim defenders. But if you stifle his contract, which we can because of our insane payroll, and just look at what he provided.. If he was on a 10m contract, we'd be fawning over him as an excellent 3&D type.

We should not be trading him unless its for a superstar. And since one is unlikely to be available this offseason barring a big change, I'm in favor of keeping him, using the #6 on a player, and using the #14 to shore up the C position like I suggested above

#6/7 - MOODY
#46 - SHARPE
#47 - AYAYI

Curry / Poole / AYAYI / Nico
Klay* / MOODY / Poole / Jessup
Wiggins / MOODY / JTA / Lee
Draymond / JTA / Paschall
Boucher / Wiseman / SHARPE

Really like that team.. there's no one in the rotation aside from Sharpe who can't hit 3s. Rebounding may be a bit light but that's a super lengthy defensive team too.. Moody doesnt get enough love for his wingspan and defensive prowess. Having Poole, Moody, JTA, and Wiseman as a backup unit is an ass ton of potential, and each have passable enough 3rd stringers behind them in case dealing them / benching them becomes the right play.

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