ImageImageImageImageImage

Wiseman will make us worse

Moderators: Sleepy51, Chris Porter's Hair, floppymoose

User avatar
cpower
RealGM
Posts: 14,405
And1: 5,611
Joined: Mar 03, 2011
   

Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#1 » by cpower » Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:03 am

I know this may sound controversial but just hear me out. This is also not a knock to Wiseman, but a testament to how well Looney and Bjelica are playing right now(especially Bjelica). If you are wondering, Bjelica is putting up 69%TS (1st in the team) and 3.8 BPM (4th in the team) and having 124/96 Ortg/Drtg split (3rd in the team) . He is basically playing like MVP level impact for 17 mins at our C.
Looney is a bit worse but still manages to have a 126/97 Ortg/Drtg split and having 20% TRB% (best in the team) and 4th best WS....these two players are the key reason why our defense is so good this year. Now if you replace Bjelica with Wiseman, we will definitely suffer on both end of the floor...The million dollar question is ..can we afford it and what will we do then?
User avatar
WESCO
Head Coach
Posts: 6,029
And1: 670
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Face Palm

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#2 » by WESCO » Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:14 am

It's not farfetched to think. I had this conversation with a buddy saying how he really needs to be eased in slowly.

As much as it's been a running joke about kerrs rotations, coach needs to be very cognizant that Wiseman cannot be played with certain players or against certain players.

I think he has to find his minutes with either one or both of Steph and dray or as the human victory cigar.
User avatar
lars_rosenberg
Analyst
Posts: 3,677
And1: 3,166
Joined: Aug 15, 2014
   

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#3 » by lars_rosenberg » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:04 am

I trust Kerr will manage Wiseman... wisely.
Last season he said his priority wasn't winning all games, but this season he can't do the same, we can't lose games to develop rookies.
User avatar
Outside
Forum Mod
Forum Mod
Posts: 5,697
And1: 8,391
Joined: May 01, 2017
 

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#4 » by Outside » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:18 am

Wiseman in small doses can bring something that the Warriors don't otherwise have. They're not going to use him like they did the first half of last season.

Managing minutes when 1-15 all deserve them will be a serious challenge. They've got a regular rotation of 10 guys right now:

Curry
Draymond
Poole
Wiggins
Lee
Iguodala
Looney
Porter
Bielica
Payton

That leaves JTA, Moody, and Kuminga in the 11-13 spots. Klay will take time, but after a month or two, he's in the top half of the core rotation minutes. Wiseman should get significantly less, but we'll see.

They're so deep that guys can sit out when they're a little banged up, like Lee did against Chicago. Iguodala will be taking games off. Injuries will happen. But compared to last year, they're so deep that Wiseman will be lucky to get 12-15 minutes per game. If he's a net negative, then he can join Moody and Kuminga in the mop-up squad.
SpreeChokeJob
Rookie
Posts: 1,243
And1: 760
Joined: Jun 30, 2017

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#5 » by SpreeChokeJob » Sat Nov 13, 2021 1:34 pm

From what I’ve seen in his practice videos, offensively he’s going to be much better. But what they really need most is a rim protector and a lockdown rebounder which aren’t really his strengths. If the Warriors get that from him, there is really no stopping this team when healthy.

He should really begin from the bench and work his way to the starting lineup. Warriors do have a minutes problem, but as Klay isn’t back, he could fit in using Iguodala’s minutes. That makes the team worse, but they really need to prep him to becoming a better center. Also I think both him and Klay will have a gradual minutes increase so it should not be so disruptive to the team. Start him playing 5 minutes and increase his workload as he strengthens into game playing shape.
Badly Browned
Veteran
Posts: 2,912
And1: 239
Joined: Mar 21, 2009
       

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#6 » by Badly Browned » Sat Nov 13, 2021 2:56 pm

I fully expect them to hit a speed bump when they work to integrate Wiseman into the rotation. Which is why they want to lock up all these wins now with the easy schedule.

The good news is unlike last year where they threw Wiseman into 25mpg right away, this year it should be easing him in with like 5-10mpg. Find those minutes by reducing those smallball minutes with Green/OPJ/JTA at the 5.
I'm not going to say that Curry is God. But he is definitely a god. -NeoWarriors
ChuckDurn
Analyst
Posts: 3,730
And1: 735
Joined: May 13, 2011

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#7 » by ChuckDurn » Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:31 pm

I think the key thing for them in thinking about Wiseman this year is “how do we get him to the point that he can be a neutral asset (at least) for 15 mpg by the start of the playoffs, and can be a big body that we desperately need against certain teams (e.g. Denver, possibly the Lakers and Jazz if they used Gobert properly)?”

Our depth this year is legitimately amazing - and when Wiseman comes back, there will be an adjustment, without a doubt. The approach that I hope they take this year is “how can you fit into what we’re doing well, rather than we change to fit around you”.

I expect we’ll see Iguodala, Porter, Bjelica, and even Looney getting some nights off due to our depth, and more minutes being available that way. And I think we’re going to see a lot of Wiseman’s play time being with Poole (playing pick-and-roll) and with stretch 4’s (either Porter or potentially Bjelica) playing next to him, with the lane not clogged. So, in other words, I don’t think we’re going to see him a lot with Draymond or even Curry at first.

Honestly, the best line-up for him to re-integrate might be Poole/Lee/Iguodala/Porter/Wiseman…… that line-up would probably be pretty killer, with the spacing around the perimeter, Poole’s pick-and-roll capability, Andre’s guile and ability to pass inside, etc…… Give me that unit at the start of second quarters, and it’s going to kill a lot of opponents’ second units.

But realistically, the biggest thing we need to watch is what impact Wiseman has on the defensive end. Hopefully he isn’t a negative, he focuses on positioning and grabbing every defensive rebound, and doesn’t bite on every pump fake. If he can hold his own on that end and not hurt us, we’ll be just fine.
If I don't have anything funny to say, can I still have a signature?
User avatar
Impuniti
Head Coach
Posts: 7,024
And1: 5,356
Joined: Jan 18, 2016

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#8 » by Impuniti » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:17 pm

I don't want to see him get his spot but earn it. If he's brought in bit by bit, then we can judge better what he can do. The team is also playing much better than last season. Is he going to rebound, box out and not look clueless on defense.

Looney and Bjelica are high IQ players that work very well in the Warriors' defensive schemes, not sure about Wise.
Scoots1994
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,368
And1: 791
Joined: Jun 24, 2018
       

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#9 » by Scoots1994 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:23 pm

JaVale couldn't be played big minutes and couldn't play in certain matchups but people here LOVE him. The same will be true of Wiseman, at least to start. He will have a simple job and if he does it he'll earn the minutes. If he doesn't he won't.

Bjelli will miss some time, Looney can't hold up to big minutes, and the team doesn't want to run Green at 5 against bigs with any kind of regularity. If JTA is the starting center the Warriors NEED Wiseman, but otherwise I think he'll get a chance to be a positive with a rotation and that will be enough to get him minutes.
User avatar
WESCO
Head Coach
Posts: 6,029
And1: 670
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Face Palm

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#10 » by WESCO » Sat Nov 13, 2021 4:55 pm

ChuckDurn wrote:
Honestly, the best line-up for him to re-integrate might be Poole/Lee/Iguodala/Porter/Wiseman…… that line-up would probably be pretty killer, with the spacing around the perimeter, Poole’s pick-and-roll capability, Andre’s guile and ability to pass inside, etc…… Give me that unit at the start of second quarters, and it’s going to kill a lot of opponents’ second units.

But realistically, the biggest thing we need to watch is what impact Wiseman has on the defensive end. Hopefully he isn’t a negative, he focuses on positioning and grabbing every defensive rebound, and doesn’t bite on every pump fake. If he can hold his own on that end and not hurt us, we’ll be just fine.


Poole is actually one of the people's I think Wiseman would not benefit playing with. At this point. Poole is a chucker. He has the talent to get downhill and make plays off the bounce. But he'd rather jack up 3s.

A successful Wiseman this year to me is a defend. Rim run. Shoot open 3s. I think playing with one of dray/Steph put him in that position. Not Poole.
a8bil
Veteran
Posts: 2,912
And1: 1,193
Joined: Jan 18, 2007

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#11 » by a8bil » Sat Nov 13, 2021 5:55 pm

With how the league has evolved, I think there are only a few teams around the league where JW will have true value. Those are the teams who have big Cs who can bully us in the paint (Ayton, Embiid, Capela...). It's too much to ask Bjeli and Dray to bang with those guys 48 minutes a game all season. Let JW bang with them for 15-20, and then let rotations with Bjeli and Dray at center run them off the floor. I agree with cPower on this.
User avatar
WESCO
Head Coach
Posts: 6,029
And1: 670
Joined: Jan 06, 2006
Location: Face Palm

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#12 » by WESCO » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:04 pm

Read on Twitter


First saw it on the CSNBC after show but posted by Canuck on the game thread.

I was cracking up cause Bonte and Dorell were laughing about Oubre and Paschal (deservingly) but made NO mention of wise being #2
WarriorGM
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,902
And1: 2,350
Joined: Aug 19, 2017

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#13 » by WarriorGM » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:09 pm

WESCO wrote:
Read on Twitter


First saw it on the CSNBC after show but posted by Canuck on the game thread.

I was cracking up cause Bonte and Dorell were laughing about Oubre and Paschal (deservingly) but made NO mention of wise being #2


A good argument for +/- to be something to keep track of.
a8bil
Veteran
Posts: 2,912
And1: 1,193
Joined: Jan 18, 2007

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#14 » by a8bil » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:11 pm

WESCO wrote:
Read on Twitter


First saw it on the CSNBC after show but posted by Canuck on the game thread.

I was cracking up cause Bonte and Dorell were laughing about Oubre and Paschal (deservingly) but made NO mention of wise being #2
Me too...but truth be told, anyone on GSW last year who was playing without Steph on the floor was going to have a negative +/- . They just had too little firepower last year, and in particular no one who could create their own shot besides Steph (and later in the year Poole, but by then KO and JW weren't playing much/any). There were times that a majority of the floor rotation was made up of these guys...tell me how that will ever result in something +.
ILOVEIT
RealGM
Posts: 12,923
And1: 2,677
Joined: May 28, 2004

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#15 » by ILOVEIT » Sat Nov 13, 2021 6:36 pm

cpower wrote:I know this may sound controversial but just hear me out. This is also not a knock to Wiseman, but a testament to how well Looney and Bjelica are playing right now(especially Bjelica). If you are wondering, Bjelica is putting up 69%TS (1st in the team) and 3.8 BPM (4th in the team) and having 124/96 Ortg/Drtg split (3rd in the team) . He is basically playing like MVP level impact for 17 mins at our C.
Looney is a bit worse but still manages to have a 126/97 Ortg/Drtg split and having 20% TRB% (best in the team) and 4th best WS....these two players are the key reason why our defense is so good this year. Now if you replace Bjelica with Wiseman, we will definitely suffer on both end of the floor...The million dollar question is ..can we afford it and what will we do then?


The absolute STRENGTH of the warriors is their quickness and ability to switch defensively. Quickness and ability to shoot the three or pass and cut quickly.

The OP is saying something I've been thinking about BEFORE we drafted Wiseman and since we went on a tear last year after he got injured.

IMO the only way he makes the Warriors better is if he subs for Looney and takes ZERO dribbles a game. Guard, block shots, dunk and rebound. Period. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO end to end drives showing off your potential bull.

Minimize mistakes and do the above...okay. Anything else make the Warriors worse.
2021/22 - The return of the Ring.
shazam_guy
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,557
And1: 829
Joined: Feb 03, 2009

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#16 » by shazam_guy » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:36 pm

What an amazing amount of talk there has been about Wiseman when he hasn't played (or even practiced until very recently) since last spring. So what's changed that people keep bringing him up and pronouncing on what he will or won't do?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I guess they can't criticize the rest of the team, which is currently the best in the NBA, so let's complain about the rookie who's out injured.

Talk to me about your preconceptions in February or March. Until then, it's just the same speculation in the same vacuum, and says much more about the people posting than about Wiseman and what kind of player he'll be.
Big J
Starter
Posts: 2,295
And1: 2,601
Joined: May 26, 2020

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#17 » by Big J » Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:49 pm

Wiseman needs to get on an HGH routine and bulk up like young Dwight. It's his only path to becoming great.
wco81
RealGM
Posts: 14,383
And1: 5,842
Joined: Jul 04, 2013
     

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#18 » by wco81 » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:00 pm

Zach Lowe talked about the Warriors in general with Nick Friedell and Anthony Slater.

One of them mentioned that the plan may be to work JW into the second unit and work some PnR with Poole.

If he's going to contribute to a winning team in the immediate future, it will be as a role player, rebounding, contesting shots, being available for lobs.

I thought he was starting to do better with these focused set of roles just before he got injured, a contrast from the start of the season when he had the green light to shoot jumpers, particularly 3s or to try to go coast to coast.

After all, that was suppose to be one of his strengths, the mobility for such a big man.

But you don't draft a player so high just to be a role player and when we saw all those pre-draft training videos, you saw him handle the ball a lot, trying to be like another KD.

So who knows how long he will accepted a limited role.
User avatar
marthafokker
Head Coach
Posts: 7,128
And1: 536
Joined: Jul 13, 2004

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#19 » by marthafokker » Sat Nov 13, 2021 9:08 pm

Anyone had stats of him coming off bench just before he got injured?

That is the Wiseman Kerr will be putting him at. All that negative +/- is mostly from the beginning of season.

Without that info, it is just hate on a rookie without context.

He was still better than the mess Sabonis as a rookie. And Sabonis had couple of years in College and training camp as rookie.
TB wrote:
We finally have a team for Nellie.... bring the old drunk back.
User avatar
and1GS
RealGM
Posts: 23,968
And1: 1,972
Joined: Nov 12, 2008
Location: home of 3x champs + supporter of all-time weakest moves
   

Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#20 » by and1GS » Sat Nov 13, 2021 10:33 pm

Kuminga also makes us worse. But you get them PT because we won't be this great and healthy forever.
Mob Byers on COVID-19 wrote:Yawn, people die every day

Quazza wrote:ALL FUTURE ERECTIONS WILL BE NAMED KEVIN FOR BEING SUCH A STAND UP GUY

Return to Golden State Warriors