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Wiseman will make us worse

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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#41 » by cpower » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:28 am

sonnyhill wrote:This thread should also include Thompson and be changed to "Thompson and Wiseman will make us worse;" due to the challenges of integrating two players returning from injuries onto a roster which is currently playing at a high level. Realistically, this may, indeed, be the case (where the team regresses), immediately upon their return, and until they are both fully integrated into the rotations AND are fully recovered-and-healthy.

However, after a period of adjustment(s), having a healthy Thompson and Wiseman will be crucial during a playoff run. If Wiseman can only do what Looney is currently doing, but with more "hops" as a finisher on the offensive end of the floor, then it is a positive. If Thompson can provide another perimeter player on the offense, then that opens up the floor for Wiggins to have a better path to the basket and draws defenders off of Curry.

i dont think Klay will make us worse though knowing he will take some of Poole's mins. Poole has been pretty meh, he has some good scoring stretches but also a lot of mistakes and not really effcient shooting the ball. A 60% klay is going to be better than Poole.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#42 » by clyde21 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:55 am

if they try to accommodate him too much of course he well...people still pretending that he's a good fit here is cute
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#43 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Mon Nov 15, 2021 12:56 am

Let Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman play together in the G-League for a month. Let them build some chemistry.
Or are we not allowed to send that many players to G-League.

Moody woukd be the small forward and would have a speed advantage. Jordan Bell is at Santa Cruz. We have somebody else in Santa Cruz that may be an NBA level shot blocker. Wiseman could get used to beating up on lesser players. Wiseman has to beat up on lesser players if he ever wants to be an NBA All-Star. You can't be nice. If the guy isn't as good as you that is their problem.

Wiseman has not played college ball. G-League is higher level than College ball. I want Wiseman to play without worrying about makinging mistakes.

Dowtin already averaged 26 points a gane in 2 Santa Cruz games but Santa Cruz lost. If Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman can't blow out G-League teams then something is wrong.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#44 » by clyde21 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:20 am

and1GS wrote:Kuminga also makes us worse. But you get them PT because we won't be this great and healthy forever.


there is a difference between a rookie making us worse because he's raw, and a rookie making us worse because he's an absolutely terrible basketball fit.

one you can deal with, the other you can't.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#45 » by FNQ » Mon Nov 15, 2021 4:10 am

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Let Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman play together in the G-League for a month. Let them build some chemistry.
Or are we not allowed to send that many players to G-League.

Moody woukd be the small forward and would have a speed advantage. Jordan Bell is at Santa Cruz. We have somebody else in Santa Cruz that may be an NBA level shot blocker. Wiseman could get used to beating up on lesser players. Wiseman has to beat up on lesser players if he ever wants to be an NBA All-Star. You can't be nice. If the guy isn't as good as you that is their problem.

Wiseman has not played college ball. G-League is higher level than College ball. I want Wiseman to play without worrying about makinging mistakes.

Dowtin already averaged 26 points a gane in 2 Santa Cruz games but Santa Cruz lost. If Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman can't blow out G-League teams then something is wrong.


Kuminga has had 2 good games in a row in meaningful minutes.. ride the wave. Moody and Wiseman need the GLeague so they can get minutes, and maybe give Wiseman some garbage time before he gets any real minutes too.

I dont personally think the GLeague is higher than college ball. College ball has more systems that are built to its players, while the GLeague is a revolving door. GLeague is where you learn 1 on 1 stuff, college is where you learn team stuff. Wiseman needs help in both
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#46 » by Scoots1994 » Mon Nov 15, 2021 3:54 pm

FNQ wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Let Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman play together in the G-League for a month. Let them build some chemistry.
Or are we not allowed to send that many players to G-League.

Moody woukd be the small forward and would have a speed advantage. Jordan Bell is at Santa Cruz. We have somebody else in Santa Cruz that may be an NBA level shot blocker. Wiseman could get used to beating up on lesser players. Wiseman has to beat up on lesser players if he ever wants to be an NBA All-Star. You can't be nice. If the guy isn't as good as you that is their problem.

Wiseman has not played college ball. G-League is higher level than College ball. I want Wiseman to play without worrying about makinging mistakes.

Dowtin already averaged 26 points a gane in 2 Santa Cruz games but Santa Cruz lost. If Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman can't blow out G-League teams then something is wrong.


Kuminga has had 2 good games in a row in meaningful minutes.. ride the wave. Moody and Wiseman need the GLeague so they can get minutes, and maybe give Wiseman some garbage time before he gets any real minutes too.

I dont personally think the GLeague is higher than college ball. College ball has more systems that are built to its players, while the GLeague is a revolving door. GLeague is where you learn 1 on 1 stuff, college is where you learn team stuff. Wiseman needs help in both


What you described is the G-League Ignite. The other G-League teams are all trying to teach their big team's system to the players, and the players are professionals who don't have to go to class.

The G-League on average is probably better than college ball on average, but peak talent in college is higher than it is in G-League. It would be fun to see the top 30 NCAA teams in a tournament with the G-League and see how the results work out.

On Wiseman ... I want to see him play and see what progress he's made.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#47 » by Upperclass » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:37 am

He'll be in the Damion Jones role
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#48 » by wco81 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:55 pm

I think they probably will have to rotate him in, just to spell Looney and Draymond, conserve them over the course of a long season.

But have a short leash, pull him if he's not performing.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#49 » by Warriorfan » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:42 am

Looney had had injury history. Green is undersized.
Just like Nemadja Wiseman gives you options with size, rim protection and athleticism. Let's hope the warriors continue to have blowouts so the young guys get court time in Santa Cruz and with stars like Curry for a bit and garbage time
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#50 » by FNQ » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:36 am

Scoots1994 wrote:
FNQ wrote:
SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Let Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman play together in the G-League for a month. Let them build some chemistry.
Or are we not allowed to send that many players to G-League.

Moody woukd be the small forward and would have a speed advantage. Jordan Bell is at Santa Cruz. We have somebody else in Santa Cruz that may be an NBA level shot blocker. Wiseman could get used to beating up on lesser players. Wiseman has to beat up on lesser players if he ever wants to be an NBA All-Star. You can't be nice. If the guy isn't as good as you that is their problem.

Wiseman has not played college ball. G-League is higher level than College ball. I want Wiseman to play without worrying about makinging mistakes.

Dowtin already averaged 26 points a gane in 2 Santa Cruz games but Santa Cruz lost. If Chiozza Dowtin, Moody, Kuminga, and Wiseman can't blow out G-League teams then something is wrong.


Kuminga has had 2 good games in a row in meaningful minutes.. ride the wave. Moody and Wiseman need the GLeague so they can get minutes, and maybe give Wiseman some garbage time before he gets any real minutes too.

I dont personally think the GLeague is higher than college ball. College ball has more systems that are built to its players, while the GLeague is a revolving door. GLeague is where you learn 1 on 1 stuff, college is where you learn team stuff. Wiseman needs help in both


What you described is the G-League Ignite. The other G-League teams are all trying to teach their big team's system to the players, and the players are professionals who don't have to go to class.

The G-League on average is probably better than college ball on average, but peak talent in college is higher than it is in G-League. It would be fun to see the top 30 NCAA teams in a tournament with the G-League and see how the results work out.

On Wiseman ... I want to see him play and see what progress he's made.


No college teams can have players taken away and added to the roster throughout the season. There's some consistency but as much as college, nor are there 4 year players who force you to change how your team plays, etc etc..

College coaches are judged on W/L, GLeague coaches are judged on development. I dont think there's a strong argument that the GLeague is better for a player than college, or provides more competition.

And if you think players need to attend class.. lets just say plenty of them use the online classes option, way before COVID. Don't hear of many 1 and done players getting their degrees once they enter the NBA, its always after.

Put it this way: if you were a NBA prospect who just finished his freshman year.. and you want to be the best player you possibly can (and lets say for the sake of argument you would get drafted by the same team in the same draft position, so money and team are static) - would you rather get drafted and play your first year in the GLeague, or take another year in college?

I'd take college, because I know how in-depth college coaches and their staffs get about opponents and strategy. I dont think GLeague coaches do that
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#51 » by Samurai » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:09 am

I imagine Wiseman's playing time will be managed similar to Bjelly's. When Bjelly is playing well, he gets regular minutes. When Bjelly is playing well, such as against the TWolves when he had 9 points, 5 boards, a block and a steal, he played 19 minutes. Against the Kings when he was 0-5 from the field, he logged only 10 minutes. If Wiseman is playing well and is helping us, he'll get more minutes. If he isn't and is hurting us, at either end, his minutes will be slashed. Which is the way it should be with all of our non stars who haven't earned the right to try and play out of the slump. So I really don't see Wiseman making us worse since this team is deep enough that Kerr wouldn't/shouldn't be playing him if he isn't helping us, same way he should be managing the rookies, JTA, DLee, Bjelly and Porter.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#52 » by cdubbz » Thu Nov 18, 2021 3:39 am

Let Wiseman build and develop on Warriors through January. Give him spot minutes like Kuminga with no real pressure. Maybe during a slow stretch before all-star have him play in G-league for 30+min with Kuminga and Moody for a few games.

G-league minutes are important for jitters and physicality and fouls etc.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#53 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:32 am

FNQ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
FNQ wrote:
Kuminga has had 2 good games in a row in meaningful minutes.. ride the wave. Moody and Wiseman need the GLeague so they can get minutes, and maybe give Wiseman some garbage time before he gets any real minutes too.

I dont personally think the GLeague is higher than college ball. College ball has more systems that are built to its players, while the GLeague is a revolving door. GLeague is where you learn 1 on 1 stuff, college is where you learn team stuff. Wiseman needs help in both


What you described is the G-League Ignite. The other G-League teams are all trying to teach their big team's system to the players, and the players are professionals who don't have to go to class.

The G-League on average is probably better than college ball on average, but peak talent in college is higher than it is in G-League. It would be fun to see the top 30 NCAA teams in a tournament with the G-League and see how the results work out.

On Wiseman ... I want to see him play and see what progress he's made.


No college teams can have players taken away and added to the roster throughout the season. There's some consistency but as much as college, nor are there 4 year players who force you to change how your team plays, etc etc..

College coaches are judged on W/L, GLeague coaches are judged on development. I dont think there's a strong argument that the GLeague is better for a player than college, or provides more competition.

And if you think players need to attend class.. lets just say plenty of them use the online classes option, way before COVID. Don't hear of many 1 and done players getting their degrees once they enter the NBA, its always after.

Put it this way: if you were a NBA prospect who just finished his freshman year.. and you want to be the best player you possibly can (and lets say for the sake of argument you would get drafted by the same team in the same draft position, so money and team are static) - would you rather get drafted and play your first year in the GLeague, or take another year in college?

I'd take college, because I know how in-depth college coaches and their staffs get about opponents and strategy. I dont think GLeague coaches do that

Average G-.League teams in the 64 team NCAA tournament and Inwould be willing to bet that one of the G-League teamS wins the National Tournament.

G-League is like the college team full of senoirs that beats the college team that has 3 one and done lotto pick Freshman. I think G-League is like halfway between NBA and NCAA sweet 16 level in strength of basketball. Sweet 16 teams may have a future NBA stud but that future NBA stud is too raw and plays like an NBA rookie.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#54 » by shazam_guy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:38 am

FNQ wrote:I dont personally think the GLeague is higher than college ball. College ball has more systems that are built to its players, while the GLeague is a revolving door. GLeague is where you learn 1 on 1 stuff, college is where you learn team stuff. Wiseman needs help in both


I agree with this, and I worry about it for Wiseman's sake if he plays there much. G-League ball is chaotic. I think Jessup starting out so poorly (although he got better) in Summer League after the ABL was a similar situation. SL is a bit like pick-up basketball, and while the quality is higher in the G-League, that more chaotic style i's still going to favor certain kinds of players and be problematic for others. Wiseman could be terrible, or he could dominate and not learn much, because there never seem to be that many good bigs in the GL.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#55 » by Mac1958 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:16 pm

The kid's barely been on the court. Little college. No training camp.

We just don't know for sure yet, because we CAN'T know for sure yet.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#56 » by Scoots1994 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 4:56 pm

I think the G-League has some merit for NBA teams and their level of talent would make them competitive against NCAA teams. That said I think high school players should go to the NCAA rather than the GL Ignite.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#57 » by shazam_guy » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:44 pm

Virtually every rookie the Warriors have ever had, except maybe Curry -- definitely Dray and Klay -- has made the team worse when they were in the lineup. That's not actually the point, unless you don't want to sacrifice even a moment of regular-season basketball to develop your rookies. Because practice experience is not at all the same as game experience.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#58 » by Flash Falcon X » Fri Nov 19, 2021 9:48 pm

I'm sure Kerr will keep Wiseman's role simple this time around until he's ready to do more. Wiseman does has some strengths: athletic, a ton of size and brings vertical spacing to the team which we don't currently have from the big men playing right now.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#59 » by sjballer03 » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:20 pm

shazam_guy wrote:Virtually every rookie the Warriors have ever had, except maybe Curry -- definitely Dray and Klay -- has made the team worse when they were in the lineup. That's not actually the point, unless you don't want to sacrifice even a moment of regular-season basketball to develop your rookies. Because practice experience is not at all the same as game experience.


But according to Evan, this logic is the Wiseman agenda!
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#60 » by FNQ » Fri Nov 19, 2021 10:43 pm

shazam_guy wrote:
FNQ wrote:I dont personally think the GLeague is higher than college ball. College ball has more systems that are built to its players, while the GLeague is a revolving door. GLeague is where you learn 1 on 1 stuff, college is where you learn team stuff. Wiseman needs help in both


I agree with this, and I worry about it for Wiseman's sake if he plays there much. G-League ball is chaotic. I think Jessup starting out so poorly (although he got better) in Summer League after the ABL was a similar situation. SL is a bit like pick-up basketball, and while the quality is higher in the G-League, that more chaotic style i's still going to favor certain kinds of players and be problematic for others. Wiseman could be terrible, or he could dominate and not learn much, because there never seem to be that many good bigs in the GL.


Playing in chaos isn’t necessarily bad. Someone like Wiseman needs it, because he has to find a way to be above it and dominate like he should. He needs to be able to understand what’s happening in front of him and adjust. Until he’s able to do that at the lowest level available, why would he be able to at the highest? Stick him down there until, multiple times per game, he reads what the defense is doing and adjusts to it. He showed no ability to do that at all last year, and that might sound like an exaggeration.. but before most games I set that as a goal for him and it flat out didn’t happen. Never dished when a defender switched on him, never changed a post move based on D, no counter moves, etc.. that’s step 1 if we’re trying to make him more than a Zaza McGee

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