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Wiseman will make us worse

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Scoots1994
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#81 » by Scoots1994 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:35 am

EvanZ wrote:
Scoots1994 wrote:
EvanZ wrote:Wiseman was one of the worst players in the NBA last season. It's unlikely after missing SL and training camp and the first 20 or 30 games of the season he's going to be a whole lot better.


Sure, because when teenagers get a year of professional training and coaching they usually don't improve.


The key phrase which you apparently didn't read or chose to conveniently ignore was "a whole lot better". And they don't always improve. Smailagic was a teenager and was bad in year 1 and year 2. You can't just assume every player ever will massively improve from year 1 to year 2.


I'm not the one making assumptions. I want to wait and see, it's the anti-wiseman people who are assuming he won't improve and don't want to see.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#82 » by SinceGatlingWasARookie » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:36 am

I have seen the patterns. I have seen players come and go. I've seen enough to bet against Wiseman being worthy of many minutes in the 2022 playoffs.

As for Wiseman's long-term prospects, that is much more uncertain. Who could still end up being a hall of famer.

I was a Celtics fan in the 1980s. I had a feeling that the Warriors fans were as happy to give up on Robert Parish as the Warriors front office was. From day one in Boston in 1980-81 Robert Parish was very very good. I could not understand what the Warriors had done. They think Joe Barry Carol what is the next coming of Wilt Chamberlain. You don't need the Wilt Chamberlain. Would Robert Parish never have been good on the Warriors? The stats suggested Robert Parish already was good on the Warriors.

I don't think Wiseman will be Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt or Robinson being Robert Parish is plenty good enough. If Wiseman counting to 1981 Robert Parish by 2024 and the Warriors probably drafted the right guy. I think we have a 50% chance of Wiseman reaching the Robert Parrish level by 2024 even if he can't do anything this year. And Robert Parish is in the Hall of Fame.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#83 » by ahmetmekin » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:46 am

The thing is, the so-called anti-Wiseman crowd form their opinions according to Wiseman's actual performance, feel for the game, the kind of player he might be, and his fit. In contrast, pro-Wiseman ideas can be summed up as wishful thinking. So indeed, there is a pro-Wiseman agenda. You do not need an agenda to claim that Wiseman will make us worse because it is pretty much a lock.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#84 » by shazam_guy » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:48 am

The "pro-Wiseman" crowd, so-called, is not saying he's going to be anything particularly, just that we don't know yet and can't know until he's had coaching and a chance to get used to the NBA game. That's not the same as claiming he's going to be another Bosh or Anthony Davis. The most any of the "pro-W" crowd have said that I've seen is that he has potential and we want to see what it might be. It's the anti-Wiseman crowd who are saying things like "We wasted a draft pick" and "He's never going to be any good" and "trade him now before his value completely craters." Which is pretty funny, because also they keep saying things like "Everyone knows that he's a failed pick". Everybody except actual NBA GMs, apparently.

I'm going to be very amused when he's actually playing and people have something to talk about besides building defensive walls around their previous hot takes. The over-analysis here on every Wiseman appearance is going to be FIERCE.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#85 » by Crazy-Canuck » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:12 am

If wiseman makes the dubbs worse, its on kerr and not wiseman.

He is allowing wiseman to bring the team down rather than sitting him when he is playing poor.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#86 » by michaelm » Sun Nov 21, 2021 12:43 pm

What I find disconcerting is the number of GSW “fans” who give every appearance of actively hoping Wiseman will be a bust so that they can be proven correct. As someone recently said here or elsewhere this would involve Steve Kerr, Andre Iguodala and Draymond Green being delusional for a start given they on the contrary give every appearance of being quite high on him.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#87 » by Scoots1994 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 2:55 pm

One thing in support of the OP is that the Warriors are bizarrely leading the NBA in opponent points in the paint, and that is, at least in part, because they are staying in front of opponents and making them take the toughest shot they can manage with high BBIQ players and position defense. Wiseman will likely play in a more explosive and attacking style with higher risk/reward. I look forward to seeing how he plays in the team defense.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#88 » by GSWFan1994 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:30 pm

ahmetmekin wrote:The thing is, the so-called anti-Wiseman crowd form their opinions according to Wiseman's actual performance, feel for the game, the kind of player he might be, and his fit. In contrast, pro-Wiseman ideas can be summed up as wishful thinking. So indeed, there is a pro-Wiseman agenda. You do not need an agenda to claim that Wiseman will make us worse because it is pretty much a lock.


Ah, now I get it... one side is science-based, the other is not. Thanks for the input, kind gentleman.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#89 » by BayWarrior » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:17 pm

Treat Wiseman like Looney and Kuminga, Don't call many plays for him, let him learn to play and get his in the natural flow of the game scoring on putbacks, fastbreaks and blown coverages near the basket. Learn to switch on defense and block some shots. Most importantly, don't take shots away from Curry and stay out of his way.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#90 » by whatisacenter » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:57 pm

michaelm wrote:What I find disconcerting is the number of GSW “fans” who give every appearance of actively hoping Wiseman will be a bust so that they can be proven correct. As someone recently said here or elsewhere this would involve Steve Kerr, Andre Iguodala and Draymond Green being delusional for a start given they on the contrary give every appearance of being quite high on him.


This is the thing for me, it is a narcissistic approach to being a fan. I get that this "realgm" and we come here because we have basketball opinions and are interested in team construction but beating a dead horse over and over about how you are right and the organization blew it without any new evidence is tiring. Wiseman is 20 yo and has barely begun his career but some armchair basketball experts have his career arc all figured out already and know exactly what type of player he will be. And then if some of us have a little faith in the FO and coaching staff our opinions are naive, cute and oblivious.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#91 » by sjballer03 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:20 pm

Clyde has an Anti-myers agenda. Evan has a Lamelo Agenda. I have an agenda against people like them who think they know it all when they actually don't. Everybody has an agenda whether they admit it or not lol
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#92 » by ILOVEIT » Sun Nov 21, 2021 7:28 pm

Nobody is anit-Wiseman. I'm anti focusing changing the Warriors style. Period. Giving Wiseman freedom to dribble the length of the floor or trying to give Wiseman touches on the block is departing from what makes Warriors great.

I tend to agree with a poster that says "it would be Kerr's, not Wiseman's, failure".

Wiseman will make the better team IF he plays 90% of his minutes without holding the ball. Rebound, defend, set screens, roll or pop...that's it. Anything else...just move the ball on.
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Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#93 » by EvanZ » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:17 pm

sjballer03 wrote:Clyde has an Anti-myers agenda. Evan has a Lamelo Agenda. I have an agenda against people like them who think they know it all when they actually don't. Everybody has an agenda whether they admit it or not lol

I don’t have a LaMelo agenda. Lacob does. He’s trying to prove they made the right choice. Otherwise if I’m wrong Wiseman will have to earn his minutes just like Kuminga and Moody. They are all basically the same stage of their development as NBA players and if you think otherwise then you are the one promoting the Wiseman agenda.

All I am asking is he earns his minutes on a contender. That’s not asking too much.


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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#94 » by GSWFan1994 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:30 pm

I have only one agenda: pro-Warriors.

All the rest is circumstance related.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#95 » by Chris Porter's Hair » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:13 am

ahmetmekin wrote:The thing is, the so-called anti-Wiseman crowd form their opinions according to Wiseman's actual performance, feel for the game, the kind of player he might be, and his fit. In contrast, pro-Wiseman ideas can be summed up as wishful thinking. So indeed, there is a pro-Wiseman agenda. You do not need an agenda to claim that Wiseman will make us worse because it is pretty much a lock.

Actual performance: barely over 800 total minutes, most recently over 7 months ago
Feel for the game: 100% subjective
The kind of player he might be: 100% subjective, and complete speculation
His fit: 100% subjective

Wishful thinking: 100% subjective, complete speculation

So basically the only difference here is pretending you know exactly what a player is or isn't based on 800ish minutes of NBA play time, over half a year ago, in completely different circumstances. That's silly. You can have your own opinion, but it is really pretentious to pretend it is somehow fact based and accuse people with a differing opinion to be doing anything different than you are doing.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#96 » by shazam_guy » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:29 am

They did their own research.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#97 » by michaelm » Mon Nov 22, 2021 12:34 am

ILOVEIT wrote:Nobody is anit-Wiseman. I'm anti focusing changing the Warriors style. Period. Giving Wiseman freedom to dribble the length of the floor or trying to give Wiseman touches on the block is departing from what makes Warriors great.

I tend to agree with a poster that says "it would be Kerr's, not Wiseman's, failure".

Wiseman will make the better team IF he plays 90% of his minutes without holding the ball. Rebound, defend, set screens, roll or pop...that's it. Anything else...just move the ball on.

Sure, if they play him large minutes which are detrimental to the team in the current situation, then they will be in no position to complain if Curry requests a trade to a team interested in winning further titles with him. I tend to the school of thought that last year they thought the only chance of contention was Wiseman's rapid development into an elite player, but Lacob being heavily invested in him could have had an influence. Last year and even more so thus far this season Curry has shown a team can be competitive with him and no other superstar, rumors of Green's demise as a valuable player are looking rather premature as they always were imo, and they appear to have signed and/or developed an excellent complementary cast as well.

Perhaps serendipitously Klay looks like playing first, and if he re-integrates and looks good there will be even less reason to change the pattern of play/game plan. It is my hope that Wiseman will be able to contribute something this year and more in future as I would have thought would be the desire of any GSW fan. That Iguodala and Green reputedly rate his potential highly, and that Curry is pointing out the lob opportunities he will have on his return when they have been on the bench together this season are encouraging, to me at least. At the moment GP2 is looking more valuable for the team than a journeyman center, imo only of course, but if the lack of same is looking problematic with Wiseman unable to deliver they should and I suspect can and will sign such a center later in the season.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#98 » by Upperclass » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:27 am

Wiseman seems like the only player whose wired like Wiseman on the whole roster. He isn't gritty, or confident, or carefree or tough. He seems to have alot of Damion Jones and Pat McCaw in his personality. That alone will pose an issue in terms of fit if things aren't constantly going his way. Best plan of action is to build him up to show enough for him to be traded in season. He's a poor fit skillwise and personality wise.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#99 » by ILOVEIT » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:14 am

Upperclass wrote:Wiseman seems like the only player whose wired like Wiseman on the whole roster. He isn't gritty, or confident, or carefree or tough. He seems to have alot of Damion Jones and Pat McCaw in his personality. That alone will pose an issue in terms of fit if things aren't constantly going his way. Best plan of action is to build him up to show enough for him to be traded in season. He's a poor fit skillwise and personality wise.


Huh...not sure about that. How about Wiggins? Wiggins looks like he wouldn't fit either.... seems aloof at times...almost shy. Yet here he is...thriving with the Warriors.

Wiseman seems like a really nice sincere young cat....I haven't seen anything to doubt that.
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Re: Wiseman will make us worse 

Post#100 » by watch1958 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:32 pm

I looked at Wiseman's advanced game logs on basketball reference, and sorted by the different categories.

One interesting thing from the excercise: Defensive Rtg.

I have no idea whether DRtg is actually a useful stat, or how it is calculated. With that caveat:

His 12 games with DRtg less than 106: Warriors 11-1
His 27 games with DRtg more than 106: Warriors 5-22
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