4/9 Game79 Warriors (43-35) @ Lakers (46-34) 7pm on TNT

[CDM_Stats]

So what happened with Wiggins? It seems like he's turning it on at the end of the season? Where was this Wiggins all season? So inconsistent. I think they should trade him at his highest value this offseason and just go with Kuminga. Those two overlap too much on talent.

They barely overlap at all.. and Wiggins has been a very solid player with exception of his scoring slump to start the season

It would honestly make more sense to trade Kuminga than Wiggins. But probably dont want to do that either if the team is trying to win in the present, because Kuminga's best skill is one that the rest of the team doesnt have

Is Wiggins playing at 2022 playoff level or almost at 2022 playoff level?

In December many wanted to trade Wiggins. I knew there was a big risk that Wiggins would never again play near 2022 playoff level but I thought gambling on Wiggins returning to good Wiggins was our best option, and yay I was right.

Since I'm in a ranting mood..

First off, yes, you were correct. Waiting for Wiggins was of course the smart move and a lot of us called it then. I refer back to the dirty word - casuals - as people who wanted him gone, because thats what the GB would say, or general fans, or whatever. Which leads me to one of the worst monikers ever.. "Playoff Wiggins 22"

Wiggins was excellent all of '22. Everyone recognized it until Dray got hurt, and then the same old stuff came up: hes lazy, he doesnt try hard, etc etc.. because he was now playing PF instead of SF, where he thrived. Then Dray comes back before the playoffs, team perks up, and Wiggins is back to being good. Then playoffs start, and because he thrived in the role all year but was now doing it against big names on a big stage, everyone acted like it was something different.. it was the same! Except for the rebounding anyways.. 17-5-2 to 17-7-2. His offensive efficiency dipped, but because he did the same thing he did all year on guys like Luka and Tatum - in fact most of the time they screened him off those guys and put LOONEY on them - it became a legend. All hype, all by general fans, but its now become some standard in his career, even though he did it all year

With JK in for Looney (and now TJD in for both of them), Wiggins is back to being a defensive problem for the other team, because like in '22, he has help behind him and Dray. Looney could cover back then because the overall team defense was better, but now the team needs more ground covered. So both JK and TJD have been big improvements there. And if Klay tries defensively, all the better

Anyways, point being.. Wiggins since January has been playing at the near exact same level as his peak, with a slight dip in scoring that coincides with his minutes being reduce by 4-5. Still an impact defender, and if he can even hold his own offensively (net neutral) than he will continue to be a solid + player on a team thats not got a ton of those

[michaelm]

They barely overlap at all.. and Wiggins has been a very solid player with exception of his scoring slump to start the season

It would honestly make more sense to trade Kuminga than Wiggins. But probably dont want to do that either if the team is trying to win in the present, because Kuminga's best skill is one that the rest of the team doesnt have

Is Wiggins playing at 2022 playoff level or almost at 2022 playoff level?

In December many wanted to trade Wiggins. I knew there was a big risk that Wiggins would never again play near 2022 playoff level but I thought gambling on Wiggins returning to good Wiggins was our best option, and yay I was right.

Since I'm in a ranting mood..

First off, yes, you were correct. Waiting for Wiggins was of course the smart move and a lot of us called it then. I refer back to the dirty word - casuals - as people who wanted him gone, because thats what the GB would say, or general fans, or whatever. Which leads me to one of the worst monikers ever.. "Playoff Wiggins 22"

Wiggins was excellent all of '22. Everyone recognized it until Dray got hurt, and then the same old stuff came up: hes lazy, he doesnt try hard, etc etc.. because he was now playing PF instead of SF, where he thrived. Then Dray comes back before the playoffs, team perks up, and Wiggins is back to being good. Then playoffs start, and because he thrived in the role all year but was now doing it against big names on a big stage, everyone acted like it was something different.. it was the same! Except for the rebounding anyways.. 17-5-2 to 17-7-2. His offensive efficiency dipped, but because he did the same thing he did all year on guys like Luka and Tatum - in fact most of the time they screened him off those guys and put LOONEY on them - it became a legend. All hype, all by general fans, but its now become some standard in his career, even though he did it all year

With JK in for Looney (and now TJD in for both of them), Wiggins is back to being a defensive problem for the other team, because like in '22, he has help behind him and Dray. Looney could cover back then because the overall team defense was better, but now the team needs more ground covered. So both JK and TJD have been big improvements there. And if Klay tries defensively, all the better

Anyways, point being.. Wiggins since January has been playing at the near exact same level as his peak, with a slight dip in scoring that coincides with his minutes being reduce by 4-5. Still an impact defender, and if he can even hold his own offensively (net neutral) than he will continue to be a solid + player on a team thats not got a ton of those

He is better than his numbers show even offensively imo, he becomes passive as a scorer if the shots are falling for the shooters, but is capable of making crucial baskets when things are not going so well for others, and did this often as I recall in the 2022 play-offs which may be part of the legend attached to him for those play-offs.

He was excellent at the start of last season before the family issues he had, and if people want to mark him down for having had those issues OK I guess but I wouldn’t myself. For this season if he is marked down for his start he is being marked down for having had ribs broken by LeBron.

Unless GSW want to completely tear it all down they are not getting anyone in trade nearly as good for anywhere near his current salary, and even drafting someone as good as him is difficult to do ignoring the years of development required. I personally would keep him at least as long as they have Dray on the roster and playing like Dray.

[Onus]

Teams have, but has this team? I agree that our defense has been the constant in the years we won and/or came close. That said, throughout our run, we've had a top offense and some of the best spacing/shooting in the league.

Don't get me wrong, I also want to see that lineup out there, can't understand how it's played 0 minutes so far this season. 0!

17th rated offense in 21-22.. we havent been a great offense without KD. 2 of the 4 titles the offense was better than the defense (KD years - and one of those was best offense, 2nd best defense; and in 1st title year it was #2 offense, #1 defense).

So yes, this team, in its most recent title, was a below average offensive team but elite defensive team. And without KD, the team's strength has been defense, not offense. Mostly because of roster design, but still.. thats why we'd have to do it this year as well

It’s damn near impossible to have an elite offense when teams don’t even guard a player, let alone 2

[vvoland]

You're right, you didn't call him elite in the first post but you certainly described one in your response. The only player besides wigs that can guard small guards while also holding his own against PFs sounds pretty elite to me. I think he's more active than he is productive on the defensive end but activity is like half of defensive production so while I agree he's the best defender of the 4, that's about where my praise would stop.

My point about rebounding is that an elite guard defender makes less of an impact for a team that's the best in the league at that aspect of the game. If he was playing 30 minutes and driving those rebounding performances, like podz is doing, I'd agree it's impactful. Rebounding is one of the more team-specific stats, especially on a team this small. They gang rebound and if moody shot as well as he rebounds, he'd see the floor a lot more.

The practices, film room and walk throughs are not "intangibles" they're very tangible. My point is that the coaches see a lot more of moody than we do, they see how well he is able to grow parts of his game or limit his mistakes. we see him for 12 minutes a night.

Interesting that you know how limited the coaching staff's use of tracking metrics is. Do you know people on the staff or do you assume they're making mistakes because they make decisions that are different from the ones you would make? Honest question. Similarly, why do you think they leave a ton of value on the table now vs not doing so in the past? Is it really all the loss of Mike Brown or did something change in our philosophy?

Not sure why you assume I've never seen an advanced stat. I've seen some tracking data, at least most of the stuff on nba.com. But, a lot of things on the court aren't capture-able with numbers. Like the ones you mentioned, most metrics will not include the context. MM has high steal/block rates? Ok. Is it because he plays against 2nd or even 3rd units? Is it because he gambles or rotates to the rim when he shouldn't? Is it because he's conserving energy on the defensive end? Is it all of that plus a relatively small sample size? Does Second spectrum or synergy really have a stat that can capture those moments that frustrate the both of us with moody? You know the play, turn down the open 3 created by great ball movement to dribble into traffic? I also remember when I asked how SS defined POA defender and after I learned it wasn't in the way either of us would define it, I was confused why you continued to use it.

To finish on moody. He guards the quicker players when wigs is out because curry and klay can't and Kerr refuses to play gp2 big minutes. Is he wrong? Not sure. I actually like what gp2 does on offense a decent amount. He's like a dunker spot guy that can hit the corner 3 and he's terrific on the break. I don't think Kerr agrees with me. But he's always hurt so I don't really blame Kerr for looking for other options, like moody.

Look, I don't want moody to fail and hope he'll play more so he can find a rhythm and grow. But I've also seen a limited player since he came in, and, what's more concerning, I can't point to anything he's gotten dramatically better at since his rookie year.

You can be as condescending as you want, it's totally up to the rest of us to engage or not. That condescension and the armchair psychology seems to be the opposite of what you're trying to do: have a calm, fact based discussion about a kid's sport that we all watch on TV.

[RUN-TJM]

Since I'm in a ranting mood..

First off, yes, you were correct. Waiting for Wiggins was of course the smart move and a lot of us called it then. I refer back to the dirty word - casuals - as people who wanted him gone, because thats what the GB would say, or general fans, or whatever. Which leads me to one of the worst monikers ever.. "Playoff Wiggins 22"

Wiggins was excellent all of '22. Everyone recognized it until Dray got hurt, and then the same old stuff came up: hes lazy, he doesnt try hard, etc etc.. because he was now playing PF instead of SF, where he thrived. Then Dray comes back before the playoffs, team perks up, and Wiggins is back to being good. Then playoffs start, and because he thrived in the role all year but was now doing it against big names on a big stage, everyone acted like it was something different.. it was the same! Except for the rebounding anyways.. 17-5-2 to 17-7-2. His offensive efficiency dipped, but because he did the same thing he did all year on guys like Luka and Tatum - in fact most of the time they screened him off those guys and put LOONEY on them - it became a legend. All hype, all by general fans, but its now become some standard in his career, even though he did it all year

I think the moniker “Playoff Wiggs” came from the Finals. If you remember, Green was pretty useless against the C’s and Wiggins assumed much more responsibility than normal. He defended at a high level, was aggressive offensively and along with Looney, marshalled the troops defensively in Greens absence.
As you say, his defence was elite all season long but in the Finals he didn’t have Green playing the safety role during the regular season.
He was clearly our 2nd best player for the series.

[vvoland]

Since I'm in a ranting mood..

First off, yes, you were correct. Waiting for Wiggins was of course the smart move and a lot of us called it then. I refer back to the dirty word - casuals - as people who wanted him gone, because thats what the GB would say, or general fans, or whatever. Which leads me to one of the worst monikers ever.. "Playoff Wiggins 22"

Wiggins was excellent all of '22. Everyone recognized it until Dray got hurt, and then the same old stuff came up: hes lazy, he doesnt try hard, etc etc.. because he was now playing PF instead of SF, where he thrived. Then Dray comes back before the playoffs, team perks up, and Wiggins is back to being good. Then playoffs start, and because he thrived in the role all year but was now doing it against big names on a big stage, everyone acted like it was something different.. it was the same! Except for the rebounding anyways.. 17-5-2 to 17-7-2. His offensive efficiency dipped, but because he did the same thing he did all year on guys like Luka and Tatum - in fact most of the time they screened him off those guys and put LOONEY on them - it became a legend. All hype, all by general fans, but its now become some standard in his career, even though he did it all year

I think the moniker “Playoff Wiggs” came from the Finals. If you remember, Green was pretty useless against the C’s and Wiggins assumed much more responsibility than normal. He defended at a high level, was aggressive offensively and along with Looney, marshalled the troops defensively in Greens absence.
As you say, his defence was elite all season long but in the Finals he didn’t have Green playing the safety role during the regular season.
He was clearly our 2nd best player for the series.

He was a monster on the boards, especially in the WCF and finals. He had 4 double digit rebounding games in those two series after having 1 all season. He also played great offensively despite not shooting well from the line or from 3. It was the kind of Wiggins that everyone wanted to see from him since he was at Kansas - ferocious.

He had a very good regular season that use, deserving all star. It's was fair for fans to want to see it in the playoffs, considering we hadn't, to that point.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Not sure why you assume I've never seen an advanced stat. I've seen some tracking data, at least most of the stuff on nba.com. But, a lot of things on the court aren't capture-able with numbers. Like the ones you mentioned, most metrics will not include the context. MM has high steal/block rates? Ok. Is it because he plays against 2nd or even 3rd units? Is it because he gambles or rotates to the rim when he shouldn't? Is it because he's conserving energy on the defensive end? Is it all of that plus a relatively small sample size? Does Second spectrum or synergy really have a stat that can capture those moments that frustrate the both of us with moody? You know the play, turn down the open 3 created by great ball movement to dribble into traffic? I also remember when I asked how SS defined POA defender and after I learned it wasn't in the way either of us would define it, I was confused why you continued to use it.

To finish on moody. He guards the quicker players when wigs is out because curry and klay can't and Kerr refuses to play gp2 big minutes. Is he wrong? Not sure. I actually like what gp2 does on offense a decent amount. He's like a dunker spot guy that can hit the corner 3 and he's terrific on the break. I don't think Kerr agrees with me. But he's always hurt so I don't really blame Kerr for looking for other options, like moody.
.

Defensively. moody is the quintessential jack of all trades and master of none. Hes a role player that fits with the personnel. He can guard, rebound, contest, match up with bigs and small, and is smart. Hes not elite at any of those, but he is good. Outside of Wiggins, Moody along with GP2 in certain matchups are our best perimeter defenders. IMO, his lack of athleticism has always capped his ceiling. But, its his length and intelligence that allows him to somewhat compensate. He doesnt gamble, fall asleep often. He just plays hard and smart which is exactly what we need. I dont think its a question that hes better on that end than guys like JK, Klay, Podz, etc..

Dray is the hub of our defense. Wiggins is the wingman for dray. Thats the heart of our defense. Then we have guys that can play with them like Loon and now TJD. Moody is in this group. He allows Dray and wiggins be the best versions of themselves by filling in the gaps with smart rotations and good positioning. Hes not going to be be your top tier defensive maker by himself, but hes going to help a unit as a cog.

[CDM_Stats]

Teams have, but has this team? I agree that our defense has been the constant in the years we won and/or came close. That said, throughout our run, we've had a top offense and some of the best spacing/shooting in the league.

Don't get me wrong, I also want to see that lineup out there, can't understand how it's played 0 minutes so far this season. 0!

17th rated offense in 21-22.. we havent been a great offense without KD. 2 of the 4 titles the offense was better than the defense (KD years - and one of those was best offense, 2nd best defense; and in 1st title year it was #2 offense, #1 defense).

So yes, this team, in its most recent title, was a below average offensive team but elite defensive team. And without KD, the team's strength has been defense, not offense. Mostly because of roster design, but still.. thats why we'd have to do it this year as well

It’s damn near impossible to have an elite offense when teams don’t even guard a player, let alone 2

Right, but thats the point. The blueprint has been defense first.. why hasnt it been that way this year?

[CDM_Stats]

Since I'm in a ranting mood..

First off, yes, you were correct. Waiting for Wiggins was of course the smart move and a lot of us called it then. I refer back to the dirty word - casuals - as people who wanted him gone, because thats what the GB would say, or general fans, or whatever. Which leads me to one of the worst monikers ever.. "Playoff Wiggins 22"

Wiggins was excellent all of '22. Everyone recognized it until Dray got hurt, and then the same old stuff came up: hes lazy, he doesnt try hard, etc etc.. because he was now playing PF instead of SF, where he thrived. Then Dray comes back before the playoffs, team perks up, and Wiggins is back to being good. Then playoffs start, and because he thrived in the role all year but was now doing it against big names on a big stage, everyone acted like it was something different.. it was the same! Except for the rebounding anyways.. 17-5-2 to 17-7-2. His offensive efficiency dipped, but because he did the same thing he did all year on guys like Luka and Tatum - in fact most of the time they screened him off those guys and put LOONEY on them - it became a legend. All hype, all by general fans, but its now become some standard in his career, even though he did it all year

I think the moniker “Playoff Wiggs” came from the Finals. If you remember, Green was pretty useless against the C’s and Wiggins assumed much more responsibility than normal. He defended at a high level, was aggressive offensively and along with Looney, marshalled the troops defensively in Greens absence.
As you say, his defence was elite all season long but in the Finals he didn’t have Green playing the safety role during the regular season.
He was clearly our 2nd best player for the series.

He did have Dray behind him in the finals though.. Dray was just terrible offensively. But those 2 have some weird connection, they just know where the other is going to be most of the times

But overall yeah, I get it. He did 2nd best for a title team in the finals.. I just dont think he elevated his game there, seems more like Dray's game fell off and Wiggins became the #2 by default. His PPG went up but that .515 TS is some pretty rough efficiency

But you get the point.. guy seems to have more of an up and down reputation than he deserves. At least defensively.. offensively its absolutely true and his hot/cold jumper are the biggest culprits

[Onus]

17th rated offense in 21-22.. we havent been a great offense without KD. 2 of the 4 titles the offense was better than the defense (KD years - and one of those was best offense, 2nd best defense; and in 1st title year it was #2 offense, #1 defense).

So yes, this team, in its most recent title, was a below average offensive team but elite defensive team. And without KD, the team's strength has been defense, not offense. Mostly because of roster design, but still.. thats why we'd have to do it this year as well

It’s damn near impossible to have an elite offense when teams don’t even guard a player, let alone 2

Right, but thats the point. The blueprint has been defense first.. why hasnt it been that way this year?

It seemed like this year and last year it was more about contracts than on court performance.

Also it's been stated that the players have a voice in their playing time. That it's a collaboration between players and coaches. Probably no coach with the ability to say no.

[svart]

17th rated offense in 21-22.. we havent been a great offense without KD. 2 of the 4 titles the offense was better than the defense (KD years - and one of those was best offense, 2nd best defense; and in 1st title year it was #2 offense, #1 defense).

So yes, this team, in its most recent title, was a below average offensive team but elite defensive team. And without KD, the team's strength has been defense, not offense. Mostly because of roster design, but still.. thats why we'd have to do it this year as well

It’s damn near impossible to have an elite offense when teams don’t even guard a player, let alone 2

Right, but thats the point. The blueprint has been defense first.. why hasnt it been that way this year?

Because klay doesn't play defense. we sacrificed half of the season for extra basketball reasons.

[WarriorGM]

The Dubs offense in this game went about as well as one could hope but the Lakers were still in it up until they fielded a disaster lineup. The lineup with CP3, Klay, Podz, JK and TJD that was killing the Lakers bench players was also in danger of itself losing the Dubs the game against LeBron who was picking it apart. +8 +11 against the scrubs and -6 -9 with LeBron on the floor.

Against inferior opposition the offense looks great but against sturdier players this team will need to rely on its defense.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

It’s damn near impossible to have an elite offense when teams don’t even guard a player, let alone 2

Right, but thats the point. The blueprint has been defense first.. why hasnt it been that way this year?

Because klay doesn't play defense. we sacrificed half of the season for extra basketball reasons.

Klay does play defense some games. Just not the defense he used to play when his legs were better. Klay still has a good mind for team defense when he is alert and putting out effort.

[vvoland]

Since I'm in a ranting mood..

First off, yes, you were correct. Waiting for Wiggins was of course the smart move and a lot of us called it then. I refer back to the dirty word - casuals - as people who wanted him gone, because thats what the GB would say, or general fans, or whatever. Which leads me to one of the worst monikers ever.. "Playoff Wiggins 22"

Wiggins was excellent all of '22. Everyone recognized it until Dray got hurt, and then the same old stuff came up: hes lazy, he doesnt try hard, etc etc.. because he was now playing PF instead of SF, where he thrived. Then Dray comes back before the playoffs, team perks up, and Wiggins is back to being good. Then playoffs start, and because he thrived in the role all year but was now doing it against big names on a big stage, everyone acted like it was something different.. it was the same! Except for the rebounding anyways.. 17-5-2 to 17-7-2. His offensive efficiency dipped, but because he did the same thing he did all year on guys like Luka and Tatum - in fact most of the time they screened him off those guys and put LOONEY on them - it became a legend. All hype, all by general fans, but its now become some standard in his career, even though he did it all year

I think the moniker “Playoff Wiggs” came from the Finals. If you remember, Green was pretty useless against the C’s and Wiggins assumed much more responsibility than normal. He defended at a high level, was aggressive offensively and along with Looney, marshalled the troops defensively in Greens absence.
As you say, his defence was elite all season long but in the Finals he didn’t have Green playing the safety role during the regular season.
He was clearly our 2nd best player for the series.

He did have Dray behind him in the finals though.. Dray was just terrible offensively. But those 2 have some weird connection, they just know where the other is going to be most of the times

But overall yeah, I get it. He did 2nd best for a title team in the finals.. I just dont think he elevated his game there, seems more like Dray's game fell off and Wiggins became the #2 by default. His PPG went up but that .515 TS is some pretty rough efficiency

But you get the point.. guy seems to have more of an up and down reputation than he deserves. At least defensively.. offensively its absolutely true and his hot/cold jumper are the biggest culprits

It's the rebounding and rim attacks that were eye opening during the playoffs, especially the finals and WCF. Yes, he was a terrific defender on Luka, JB, and Tatum but we've seen him do that on a (mostly) regular basis that season. He became our best rebounder in those two series and DESPITE shooting poorly, he continued to attack the rim, take open shots and play like he was emotionally invested. The four highest rebounding games of his career came in may and june of '22.

Did wiggins shot diet change in that playoff run, particularly in the last two series? I thought he was attacking the rim more and with more force (like that luka dunk). While his FT and 3PT %s were near career lows in the Finals/WCF he didn't let that make him timid, like he often does, and still drove to the rim with reckless abandon.

[vvoland]

Because klay doesn't play defense. we sacrificed half of the season for extra basketball reasons.

You can't seriously blame Klay for the first 40 games. Dray missed over 20 of them. JK didn't get playing time until Dray got suspended the 2nd time. Wiggins didn't show up until halfway through the season (whether it was the ribs, the family stuff, the finger or all of that, he wasn't the same player). TJD started playing like 3 weeks ago.

Yes, Klay was shooting poorly to start the season but he was not the reason they were 19-24 in late Jan. Klay's Dec and Jan #s are very similar to his career average and his recent numbers that make people say he's playing well:

Dec/Jan: 19 ppg on 43%/40%/93% splits
vs
Mar: 18 ppg on 44.3/39.9/90 splits.

Klay's not the reason they've played at a 57 win pace since they started 19-24. SImilarly, he's not the reason they were as bad as they were. He's not blameless but despite his Oct/Nov slump, he wasn't a primary reason the team struggled.

[CDM_Stats]

It’s damn near impossible to have an elite offense when teams don’t even guard a player, let alone 2

Right, but thats the point. The blueprint has been defense first.. why hasnt it been that way this year?

Because klay doesn't play defense. we sacrificed half of the season for extra basketball reasons.

Yes thats part of it, but keep in mind it was Kerr's strategy that had Klay be a down-low help defender for a long stretch of time to start the season. Its happening less and less now (to predictably better results), but the 3G/4G lineups that pushed him into the PF role were a big part of his defensive decline

Hes not good, dont get me wrong, but he wasn't as bad as the early season showed. That strategy was devastating to the team defense for a couple months, even with Draymond, and has since been improved by removing the slower Looney for the quicker JK/TJD, both of whom can cover more space to account for the poor perimeter defense of Curry/Klay

At the end of the day though, he is an extreme example of someone who only plays the team game hard when his individual game (shooting) is working. While some are celebrating his 4 game solid streak as vindication of the 70 games before it, I'm wondering when the other foot will drop with him. It always does, and if Kerr's going to lean on him regardless of his play in the playins/playoffs.. its gonna hurt

[svart]

Because klay doesn't play defense. we sacrificed half of the season for extra basketball reasons.

You can't seriously blame Klay for the first 40 games. Dray missed over 20 of them. JK didn't get playing time until Dray got suspended the 2nd time. Wiggins didn't show up until halfway through the season (whether it was the ribs, the family stuff, the finger or all of that, he wasn't the same player). TJD started playing like 3 weeks ago.

Yes, Klay was shooting poorly to start the season but he was not the reason they were 19-24 in late Jan. Klay's Dec and Jan #s are very similar to his career average and his recent numbers that make people say he's playing well:

Dec/Jan: 19 ppg on 43%/40%/93% splits
vs
Mar: 18 ppg on 44.3/39.9/90 splits.

Klay's not the reason they've played at a 57 win pace since they started 19-24. SImilarly, he's not the reason they were as bad as they were. He's not blameless but despite his Oct/Nov slump, he wasn't a primary reason the team struggled.

I blame kerr.

He played him too much, instead of moody, jk (he was playing out of position, and he was playing even when he sucked).

Of course he is not the only reason. Kerr also played saric and the corpse of loon instead of tjd, he kept kuminga glued to the bench. His lineups were atrocious.