Does Baron have positive or negative trade value?

[mistatwo mayn]

Words on a screen.

Doubt there's much hope for online psychoanalysis.

Please submit a blood sample. I'm certified to do hella analysises.


Barnes is a nice rotation guy; 3 mil is fair.
Webber played nice... it'll take Baron some getting use to.

[Sleepy51]

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Webber played nice... it'll take Baron some getting use to.

I'll throw a wild conspiracy out there on this one. I don't think Baron is into the whole Webber thing at all. IIRC, the player quotes we were fed before his debut were mostly from Jack and Matt, but not Baron correct? Then Nellie takes his first real shot at Baron in 2 years with the ball movement comment, despite the fact that it's been pretty apparent that Baron has been put in a postition to be able to rest of the floor for some of his 40 mintes . . . which is when a lot of the not moving happens. I I think there's some friction between Baron and Nelli over moving Webber ahead of Baron's guys, Dre and Al Both of whom Baron has bonded with and shown that he enjoys sharing the floor with. Webber is a pet project outsider who's been annointed a 30mpg starter over guys who have been earning thier stripes in two years of wins.

This is a small sample, and a wild as extrapolation, but there are some cues in how the personalites have interacted to this point.

[Sid the Squid]

Ive never been a fan of the warriors offensive style....That's why Ive been talking Baron options all day...Baron can't be effective off the ball...He can't shoot..He doesnt move without the ball..What's he going to do? I'd really liked the Webber offense...Biedrins is so much better off having the ball run through Webber at the high post...Monta's the perfect offensive PG for that offense... ...I just wish we played some D last night ...

[Sleepy51]

I couldn't be a bigger fan of the team that beat the piss out of the hornets a week ago.

Granted, for most of the season you have been "love/hate" with Baron. Now after one huge stinker it's all hate?

People have short memories here.

[turk3d]

The only team that imo would take Baron (in a straight up trade) would be the Fakers with Odom coming back in return. Because they now have Gasol, Kobe and Bynum returning, the one weak spot is point. Baron (who it's known would love to play in LA) would give them the last piece they need to dominate once again. The fact that he's on an option is even better, since they would probably have a better chance than anyone of resigning him to a more reasonable deal (home team discount).

Kobe, Bynum, Gasol, Baron, whoever > Kobe, Bynum, Gasol, Odom, Fisher. Only because this configuration nwould give the Lakers more balance. Kobe and Baron would give the rest of the teams even more trouble than Baron and Monta.

Odom would be a good fit for the Ws. Odom + Farmar for Baron

Beans/Webber/Croshere
Odom/Harrington/Webber
Jack/Barnes/Pietrus/Harrington?
Ellis/Bukie/Pietrus
Farmar/Ellis/Watson

LA wins a ring this year, Warriors improve and get in the playoffs, probably knocked out in the first round which they likely will anyways.

[Sid the Squid]

I couldn't be a bigger fan of the team that beat the piss out of the hornets a week ago.

Granted, for most of the season you have been "love/hate" with Baron. Now after one huge stinker it's all hate?

People have short memories here.

Why do you say it's all hate?

Ive always hated the warriors style on offense..It's gimmick ball...Nellie knows that..That's why he's bringing in Webber...He wants to make the offense more efficient...Get that team FG% raised by getting the ball to the right people at the right time...Better ball movement..Better shot selection..All this is contrary to Baron's style...

I like figuring this stuff out 1st.....Nobody else except you even thought about any of this sh*t off one game...

I'm a Baron lover/hater...

[Chris Cohan]

"

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Why do you say it's all hate?

Ive always hated the warriors style on offense..It's gimmick ball...Nellie knows that..That's why he's bringing in Webber...He wants to make the offense more efficient...Get that team FG% raised by getting the ball to the right people at the right time...Better ball movement..Better shot selection..All this is contrary to Baron's style...

I like figuring this stuff out 1st.....Nobody else except you even thought about any of this sh*t off one game...

I'm a Baron lover/hater...

"

[St.Nick]

So you love him when he leads us to wins but hate him when he has a bad game that "makes" us lose.

I do believe that is what is called a flip flopper, front runner, hypocrite.

You need to accept Baron for what he is--warts and all-- or not. This wishy washy crap just hurts your credibility.

So, do you support Baron for what he is or do you want him out of here immediately?

[Sleepy51]

-= original quote snipped =-

Why do you say it's all hate?

Ive always hated the warriors style on offense..It's gimmick ball...Nellie knows that..That's why he's bringing in Webber...He wants to make the offense more efficient...Get that team FG% raised by getting the ball to the right people at the right time...Better ball movement..Better shot selection..All this is contrary to Baron's style...

I like figuring this stuff out 1st.....Nobody else except you even thought about any of this sh*t off one game...

I'm a Baron lover/hater...

As I've tried to be clear about, I'm not AGAINST the Webber experiment. I do think it could potentially help us. But, starting him?

My personal perspective happens to be that what we do on D is WAY more important than how we go about our offense. Most of the league is crappy one-on-one offensive play (which is why our unfundamental defense actually works) and that includes the team that made the finals from the east last year. We are better than most of those teams as far as occasionally implementing some kind of teamwork on offense. When we do share the ball and when we do run, we do it better than most teams. We have our ups and downs along the way, but we are not a bad offensive team.

The defense is where I think we'll live or die, and I'm terrified of what a slow guy (who doesn't have 7'3 reach) will do to our defense. I tend to see my hypothetical of Baron's perspective to have some merrit:

"We were winning without Webb. We played the best game of the NBA season a little over a week ago without Webb. Now coach is saying we're crap and we need a guy to come out of retirement to fix our broken game? a guy who can't help us steal the ball?"

I think there are some righteous questions that Don's players might be asking about the way Webb is being brought in. I think annointing him a starter (promising as you put it) was a bad move, and the chemistry reaction to how Nellie is cramming this down a winning team's throat could be a mistake.

For the hundreth time since joinging this board, I'll be happy to be proven wrong.

P.S. I'm not with stupid ^

[Chris Cohan]

With you on D, Sleepy.

No team in the NBA lets opponents move the ball to scoring effectiveness more than the Warriors besides Denver, Washington, and Seattle. Bad bunch to be a part of, really. Denver has a more efficient offense, forces the same TO as the Warriors, and rebounds while Camby is a dominant defensive force. But you don't want to hang with any of these teams in a discussion about defense and the Warriors of course give up more opponents' points than anyone else in the league. They're the worst by 1.7 PPG, which is a noticeably huge gap between team defenses to begin with, let alone as the difference between worst and not worst.

The story of the smooth, ball-sharing Warriors' offense is a selective fabrication many nights. The break is getting broken a lot this year and the half court is a low percentage chuckfest, not clean team ball movement like the Suns run. 23 assists per game is good, no question, but it's concentrated heavily with the two dominant players, Davis and Jackson and actually constitutes a very low percentage relative to the team's pace factor. In fact, their assists rate is flat out ordinary.

Everything other than the volume of their offense is ordinary. This is a classic quantity over quality scenario.

[Sleepy51]

Everything other than the volume of their offense is ordinary. This is a classic quantity over quality scenario.

I thought I addressed this earlier (maybe it was in the other thread)

The team that takes the most shots wins, about 80% of the time.

Everything we do is focused on that one objective. Get off more shots than the other guy. I'm intrigued by the approach, and I am very concerned that adding Webber hurts that core strategy.

[Sleepy51]

I do recognize and accept that this strategy can not be counted on to deliver playoff success. Easily, over 7 short games, the number crunching might not work in your favor.

To succeed in the playoffs, we just have to come up with more. That's where integrating a Webber might pay bigger dividends. But he didn't need to be promised starts or forced upon a nicely gelled tight knit team. He should have been eased into things with playoff contribution as the focus, not Don's desire to re-write his flawed history here.

[Sid the Squid]

Did you complain about Webber starting before the game?

How come your not complaining about Webber starting the 3rd Q..With Webb we erased the bulls lead and were actually up 3 when he exited the game...The team was playing good ball


I dont who, if anyone, complained about Webber starting..Maybe I freaked out..I know I was only worried about Andris Biedrins how it would effect his PT...

[Sleepy51]

Did you complain about Webber starting before the game?

How come your not complaining about Webber starting the 3rd Q..With Webb we erased the bulls lead and were actually up 3 when he exited the game...The team was playing good ball


I dont who, if anyone, complained about Webber starting..Maybe I freaked out..I know I was only worried about Andris Biedrins how it would effect his PT...

I complained. I been complaining about screwing with Al and Dre's minutes/role/starts sinice December. Webber hadn;'t played ball in 12 months. Starting him struck me as ludicrous and contrived.

As far as the 3rd quarter? I really don't mind in game adjustments all that much. To me that's a totally different issue than the "starting lineup." Sitting Jack and starting Baron/Monta/Al/Webb/Dre in the second half based upon what was or was not working would have been sweet.

[Sid the Squid]

I watched the game over...Baron brought no energy to the game.....It's not fair even mentioning the Chris Webber minutes as a reason the warriors lost the game...In the 3RD Q when we were playing really well, Baron kept the bulls in the game by taking 3 really stupid shots totally out of the offensive flow..We were getting great shots during that period, and there was no reason for Baron to launch and brick...That's the story of his career..It's the reason he's not in Paul or Nash's league..It's one of the main reason's Baron probably has zero trade value.

[Sleepy51]

I watched the game over...Baron brought no energy to the game.....It's not fair even mentioning the Chris Webber minutes as a reason the warriors lost the game...In the 3RD Q when we were playing really well, Baron kept the bulls in the game by taking 3 really stupid shots totally out of the offensive flow..We were getting great shots during that period, and there was no reason for Baron to launch and brick...That's the story of his career..It's the reason he's not in Paul or Nash's league..It's one of the main reason's Baron probably has zero trade value.

Baron was in Paul's league a week ago. He was "all up" in Paul's league that night.

Baron's energy level was related to the lineup change. It's also related to him pouting over the All Star selection, but my "Bad Baron" theory does account for some of his suck. You are right, that it's not Webbs fault though. It's Nellie's for forcing a change the most awkward way possible, and it's Baron's for being bad with change.

Baron's shot selection during that stretch was Baron at his worst, no doubt, but there really hasn't been much of that from him this year at all. It's weird to define him this season by that one game when he's done so much else different and better for much of the season.

[Chris Cohan]

I hope no one mentioned Webber's minutes as a clearly conclusive detriment-- I missed that if it happened. He was clearly rusty and out of shape and that will need to be carefully managed to get best return on his skills and aptitudes but the game was lost at the top of the minutes rotation, not at the bottom.

[Sid the Squid]

I'd also defining him by the fact that Nellie said Baron is not moving without the ball in mini-camp...That Nellie gave Baron the next practice off becuase he wasnt doing anything produtive anyways....

This is all new Baron talk from Nellie...In 18 months Ive never heard even close to one Baron negative coming out of Nellie's mouth...I knew this whole time it was because Nellie was pulling a con job on Baron...It worked beautifully...

But now Nellie wants to change direction..Baron's a stubborn pompous star player that Nellie needed to BS...I think Nellie's trying to move away from that now...He's see's Monta's rapid improvement as a PG..Nelson played it right..I got to give out the props...It's just a shame that Nelson couldnt raise up Baron's trade value enough.

[Chris Cohan]

I do recognize and accept that this strategy can not be counted on to deliver playoff success. Easily, over 7 short games, the number crunching might not work in your favor.

To succeed in the playoffs, we just have to come up with more. That's where integrating a Webber might pay bigger dividends. But he didn't need to be promised starts or forced upon a nicely gelled tight knit team. He should have been eased into things with playoff contribution as the focus, not Don's desire to re-write his flawed history here.

The volume attack is required when you give two 41-42% career shooters 40% of the team's shots. The Warriors get 4 more shots per game than their opponents. Without getting into the miniscule 2/3 point shot breakdown within those small differential subsets or the incredible regularity with which Jackson and Davis are taking extreme majorities of 4th quarter shots, you've got an equation that adds up to pace factor being all the Warriors have an advantage in. We agree there, and probably on most everything else in this discussion.

If the break is broken, the pace is irrelevant unless you have a half court offense in play or a hot night from beyond the arc. What LF is getting to, and what I agree with in theory only because we're potentially shifting offensive focus in a dramatic fashion made necessary purely because of the inefficiency of the bad volume attack we've relied on to this point,
is that Chris Webber is fundamentally amd historically better for half court team offense to an immeasurably superior degree than anyone else the Warriors had on the roster.

This, in a nutshell, is precisely why this particular Warriors' roster's/rotation's particular regular season may be over very, very soon.

[Chris Cohan]

I'd also defining him by the fact that Nellie said Baron is not moving without the ball in mini-camp...That Nellie gave Baron the next practice off becuase he wasnt doing anything produtive anyways....

This is all new Baron talk from Nellie...In 18 months Ive never heard even close to one Baron negative coming out of Nellie's mouth...I knew this whole time it was because Nellie was pulling a con job on Baron...It worked beautifully...

But now Nellie wants to change direction..Baron's a stubborn pompous star player that Nellie needed to BS...I think Nellie's trying to move away from that now...He's see's Monta's rapid improvement as a PG..Nelson played it right..I got to give out the props...It's just a shame that Nelson couldnt raise up Baron's trade value enough.

I think you're getting a little ahead of yourself on the politics of Warrior basketball but I can't say I'm not interested in the topic.

If and when Baron Davis cannot significantly help the team make money, he'll be gone. If that happens to be as this season closes, best for all parties but for the on-court talent he might have netted earlier than now. Agree with you on that.

I stand by my sentiment that there will be no in-season trade of Baron Davis so the trade value is not as critical as giving Baron reasons to seek other avenues by which to do what I already know with certainty he wants to do anyway: get paid the most for the longest by any means necessary. So it's imperative that the team make sure he's clear that the Warriors have no intention of being those means.

If he pisses off the fanbase by reverting, all the easier.

If Webber and Bustinelli can serve as sideshow distractions to positive effect, sign me up and throw the kids on the floor. Jackson will be the next implosion, no doubt about it.