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Post Mortem

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Post#1 » by Sleepy51 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:15 pm

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_8929329

Jack's response is interesting:
"Who knows what's going on through Coach's mind?" said Jackson, who sat out the second period. "Whatever's going on through his mind, I respect it. I respect everything he says, everything he does. Coach makes the decisions, and we ride with them totally. We're behind him 100 percent."


The first line (his gut response) is telling. He SHOULD know what's going through coaches mind when a player (Baron or Jack) has two consecutive weeks of general malaise and sucktitude. It shouldn't be a big mystery to a player for a coach to recognize the need to sit guys who don't have it. Jack is Nellie's most loyal soldier, and he's saying all the stuff he's supposed to say in the second half of the response. But his knee jerk reaction, and the sum total of both parts of that response sounds more like he was trying to convince himself rather than convince his audience. I don't think Jack understands discipline at all - he wants to respect it, but you can't legitimately respect something you don't understand.

Baron? :noway: :nonono: :evil: :oops: :banghead:

He's still got that cancer inside of him. He still has way too much negativity and cynicism ready to rear it's ugly head when he loses faith. I know that this had to be a tremendously dissapointing result for one of his best season's in his career. No All Star appearance, no playoffs, (not a lot of contract leverage.) Losing that denver game had to be absolutely crushing for him, and everyone here pretty much saw last night as a "lost cause" game, but you still play with pride. You still leave it on the floor, you still come up with something else to finish what you started with dignity.

I'm dissapointed in Baron's choice of how to end the meaningful component of his season. It doesn't erase 40mpg for 80 games and 60 some strong performances. But it puts a damper on things. How you finish things in life matters. Baron is a guy I would still "like to" want to take into battle, but I think he needs a more positive alpha presence to control and carry him when the chips look down. Jack did that for a lot of the last 2 years, but when Jack's game is off, even he can't control Bad Baron. He's just too succeptible to his own personality trap.

At 17mil, we can't afford to retain talent and aquire a larger personality (with game credibility) to bouy him. I wouldn't want a Baron Davis ANYWHERE NEAR a bad team again. The gamble Mullin took paid off only because of the wholesale changes made surround him with people he can't second guess. It wasn't just about changing the talent, it was about putting personalities around him that could keep him out of the tank. I don't think that could be replicated in 100 tries. The question is if all those guys peronalities aren't enough, then how do we get talented enough around a very expensive Baron to protect him from himself? Can we be good enough in the west to control a playoff spot (not the 8th) all season long to keep him from going negative? The salary issues make it a difficult proposition.

I want to resist the temptation to make too much out of this episode last night. We have to be one of the best 5 deep teams to ever take the court in this league. We have a winning record and we improved from last season. We get a lotto pick, and we get to be more mad at the crappy easter conference and dumb playoff format than at our roster. But, this flash of "New Orleans Baron" is troubling.

The offseason will be interesting.
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Post#2 » by warriortone » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:28 pm

Never really looked at it from that standpoint Sleepy. Great post.
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Post#3 » by turk3d » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:40 pm

You know me, S;eepy. I'm going to lay it on the coaching (and FO to a degree). I don't (as you do) attribute it to the FO not spending the additional money or using the TPE. To me we had what we needed to as you say "improve from last year" and definitely enough to make the playoffs with a shot (once more of getting to the 2nd round).

The Chickens Come Home to Roost
Why do I feel this way? If you are a coach and you have the personnel you need, but do not play them, or you dump them and instead bring in guys that were worse than the ones you had (or even have) and instead play other guys who are better suited for other roles, you have no one to blame but yourself. On this forum, there have been a number of astute posters, with a lot of basketball knowledge pointing out some of the flaws in Nellie's coaching philosophy and it finally caught up with us.

Is it a Philosophy or is it an Agenda?
This is an interesting question. You (who I consider one of the most asture posters among many here) was the one who may have answered this in some of your posts. You said something like (paraphrasing here) "Nellie wants to punish the League by playing small ball to expose the fact that so many players don't know how to play fundamental basketball and he wants to make other teams look foolish". Well, that worked for a while, particularly when we eked into the playoffs (more due to the tremendous effort by Baron, Jack and J-Rich when he returned than small ball which I believe was "fools gold" as reggae puts it) and all this after Nellie has basically given up. Then we had the fortune to meet Nellie's old team and his old student in Avery plus the momentum from our previous stretch run which was probably the only team that we could have beaten in the first round.

The League does not like the Warriors and Nellie Generally Speaking
We see this all time in the bad calls and games we lose because of either poor or unfair officiating. When it looks as though we might miss out on the playoffs this is pretty significant. The question should be why is this? I think it is because of the reason you stated above. Do you think that the league is not aware that Nellie is out to embarass the League as you have so astutely pointed out to us? And if so, how do you make them feel about it. It is somewhat of a quandry for them, since a) they like the money that the Warriors are bringing to the league, but b) they don't like being embarassed, so even if it a subconscious dislike, it still I believe impacts the way this team is treated. Yes, they like the excitement that smallball generates (and especially the revenues), but not at the expense of allowing their "star" players be embarassed out on the floor, that's more important and in the long run generates even more revenue (the star players generate more revenues from all the endorsements, jerseys, etc.).

Major Concerns
In a league where big men are the ones who dominant the league they do not want this to change (see the playoffs last year when the Suns were just about ready to change all that, had they beat the Spurs). As far as smallball is concerned, it's fun to watch but is nothing more than a novelty as far as the league is concerned and (as many of us have said all season long) will never make it all the way. Small ball and Conventional with the right mix does have possibilities but Nellies stubborn refusal to do this and instead go all small will never have the success that we all desire and I guess if he wants to make that his legacy, it's his choice.

Andris and BWright
The big question this offseason (imo) is whether Mullin wants to make it his. He has a tremendous amount of young talent on this team (which he has put together) and the question in my mind becomes whether or not he is going to be willing to tear it down to succumb to Nellie's fetish. My concern is whether some of the rumors which are starting to spread (they could be rumors, but what bothers me is these are concerns that I have already made note of) have meat to them. I think that they do. I (and I think Reg) have made post to alluding to the possibility of losing Biedrens during the offseason. There's no doubt that it seems that Biedrens has been held back this entire season. My feeling is that Nellie is going to tell Mullin that he wants to move Wright or Biedrens (one or the other) which is evidenced by the fact that once Wright started showing he was capable Nellie would not play him and Biedrens together. Why? If this is to be our future front court, why not give them some time together? Because I believe he was afraid that if they showed some success and the ability to play together, this might thwart his plans to move one or the other in a deal during the offseason. The only way we're going to get the kind of player that Nellie wants (assuming that FO won't move Monta) is we will have to move either Wright or Beans and Beans is the one likely to get moved because his salary's about to jump. If we want to move Al and get something decent in return, we're going to have to use Wright or Biedrens to get it done.

This entire season it is obvious to just about anyone that Nellie has been holding Biedrens back. If you go through the stats sheets I'm sure you will find that we play our best ball when he's in the lineup probably 90% of the time. Yet he's averaged only 27.2 mpg (exact same as hat Al has averaged) and even at 27 minutes is able to average almost a double double. Even yesterday, on the verge of playoff extinction, he played only 26 minutes, yet scored 16 and grabbed 10 boards and shot 8-10 (80%). Bukie played 32 minutes last night, Al played 26 and ietrus played 25. At first I thought it might be intended to just be used as a ploy to justify offering him less money on his contract but now I'm not so sure. There are so many what-ifs which could have made the difference (one game) and playing him more is certainly one of them.

Nellie Planning to Move Beans
I think Nellie is going to try and move him. Here's a guy who's 12.8 rebounds per 36 minutes would rank him 3rd in the league Center (behind Dwight Howard and Marcus Camby) and scoring (13.7) at 10th (but 1st in fg%). He had the biggest rebounding game all season (26) and this is even at just 22 and extremely light for his position. I wouldn't trade him straight up for any Center (except for Howard) and we're about to move him I fear for a Marion or possibly broken down Brand (power forwards who can play Center). I'm sorry, I sure hope that Mullin and the FO don't go for this BS.
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Post#4 » by enderboy » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:44 pm

+1 for sleepy.

regarding baron, the question is, does he have his best years in front of him? does he have at least 2-3 similarly productive years as 07-08 in front of him?

as a believer in the bill walsh school of talent, you gotta be willing to let em go a year too soon rather than holding on a year too long. if baron opts out, so be it, but i wouldn't extend that contract. he knocked it out the box in a contract year. he had his best stint as a pro under a coach who's also on his last leg. because of the style & free reign baron is allowed under nellie (last night notwithstanding), it would stand to reason that baron's tenure as a warrior may be connected with nellie's (not the other way around).

the shelf life of the baron/nellie relationship is about to run its coarse. we have legit pieces to continue to build with & cap room to make a big splash in a post-baron era.

i guess i look at it like this:
last year, the playoffs quenched my thirst. this year, i had realistic expectations that this could be a 45-50 win team. knowing it wasn't enough will help me set my expectations for next year. IF next year comes without baron or nellie i won't panic & feel cheated out of years of good teams because i believe the team is in good shape in terms of talent & its cap is fair relative to that talent. in that regard, mully, nellie, rowell, et al have done an OUTSTANDING job.

i believe mully is legit & will make a play to keep the warriors relevant. they've done well to ensure a future for the team & there's no reason for me to believe the w's hopes rest on the future of baron or nellie.
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Post#5 » by mistatwo mayn » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:15 pm

Last offseason

"Coach, I want an extension"

-"well son, you won't get much. You need to play the whole season, get you back to being an allstar, need to get into the post season and do well."

"Aite Coach"

Fastforward

"Damm no allstar"
"Damm I'm tired"
"Damm no playoffs"

If I were Baron I'd be damm depressed. He gave it all this season... what does he have to show for it?

He misses like 30 games last year and the team still go in. Go figure.
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Post#6 » by zero » Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

+1 for enderboy & sleepy.

I want to resist the temptation to make too much out of this episode last night. We have to be one of the best 5 deep teams to ever take the court in this league. We have a winning record and we improved from last season. We get a lotto pick, and we get to be more mad at the crappy easter conference and dumb playoff format than at our roster. But, this flash of "New Orleans Baron" is troubling.


i'm glad you called this out sleepy. it's been brewing in baron for a while now this season - especially the 2nd half. last nite it just came to a head. i saw a serious change in jack's attitude this year. he definitely has grown and matured. baron is regressing for some reason and that does concern me.
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Post#7 » by KR4 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:17 pm

Great posts!

To me, I feel torn inside. Baron was spectacular in last year's playoffs and most of this year. But there is an inherent hubris in Baron which leads me to think that I don't care if he stays. In a sense, I want to move on with our young players and see what we can do. I would sacrifice a couple years out of the playoffs for it, honestly.

Tough times right now for Warriors fans. Its like we're in fan Limbo.
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Post#8 » by The_Believer » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:30 pm

Baron would be upset after being on all these crap teams his whole career. Only this year, he had a decent team and a coach that won't get anywhere any time soon.
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Post#9 » by Sleepy51 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:46 pm

mistatwo mayn wrote:Last offseason

"Coach, I want an extension"

-"well son, you won't get much. You need to play the whole season, get you back to being an allstar, need to get into the post season and do well."

"Aite Coach"

Fastforward

"Damm no allstar"
"Damm I'm tired"
"Damm no playoffs"

If I were Baron I'd be damm depressed. He gave it all this season... what does he have to show for it?

He misses like 30 games last year and the team still go in. Go figure.


65 game Baron might be > 82 game Baron, but 65 game Baron ain't getting max money.
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Post#10 » by FNQ » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:14 pm

I agree the entire original post Sleepy... but I will take it to the extreme... I think we're at this point:

I don't believe there's a way to bring Baron back with a new contract now... how will we convince this pouting chucker to harness it in? He doesn't know how, and when he's told to, he clashes with the coach.

I'm over it... we have a PG for the future, we can draft / sign / trade for some insurance for him, whatever. I just really hope they smooth it over, in the media, in the next 2 days... we don't need to try and deal a malcontented Baron Davis, as we know what kind of value that's worth.

The only way I'd ever consider wanting Baron back is if Nellie comes back... I don't want pouty Baron screwing up a new coach's team...
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Post#11 » by floppymoose » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:21 pm

I put zero faith in micro-analyzing the kind of comment Stephen made. I'd have to hear the interview up to that point and hear how he says it to even begin to guess, and I probably wouldn't put anything in it even then.
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Post#12 » by Sleepy51 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:29 pm

I micro analyze everything. I'm not betting my house on it. Just spitballing.
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Post#13 » by Sleepy51 » Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:33 pm

But you're right. The interviewer's previous question could have been about Nellie's frequent decision to wear spandex T-shirts under suit jackets at 285 pounds.
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Post#14 » by Sid the Squid » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:08 pm

There's too much spin going on..Baron quit on Nellie, his teammates and the fans..Baron has done this multi times in the past..He did it to Monty..He did it to Byron..He did it to Floyd...He even did it to Silas even though that one was kept on the lowdown...Baron's a quiter..The coaches know this..That's why theyve outcasted him..Baron even quit on our country ..The U S of A...That's right..In Indiana during the world championships...He flat out gave up..The USA team embarrassed the whole country..Karl hates Baron..

Why all the spin? I dont know..But Baron flat quit on us..Again.
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Post#15 » by warriortone » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:10 pm

I really hope the FO doesn't have it's collective head up it's ass on this issue.
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Post#16 » by FNQ » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:16 pm

This is amazing... Warriors might be lucking out here.

If Baron goes... Nellie goes... you think Nellie is going to rebuild a team? Even that drunken fool knows that the best route to go in that case is to let Smart take over... grow with the new coach.

That LAC trade looks better and better every day I see it... I'm getting so amped about our offseason now after these past 2 days.
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Post#17 » by Sid the Squid » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Nellie's got 5.1 million coming for next season..Joy wants to live here close to her grandchildren..Nellie has already said they're going to live here next year no matter what...Does 1+1 still = 2 ?
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Post#18 » by FNQ » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:29 pm

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Post#19 » by Sid the Squid » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:33 pm

I'm OK with Nellie staying if it's between him or Keith Smart..
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Post#20 » by FNQ » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:40 pm

LF75 wrote:I'm OK with Nellie staying if it's between him or Keith Smart..


:o

I'll take any kind of change at this point... if I see Pietrus or Buke @ PF again I'll be sick...

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