What about Harrington for Nene?

[turk3d]

What about an Al for Nene deal? Is this something we should be looking into? Considering Nene's health issues, it would be somewhat risky, but this might give the Nugs the impetus to move him to us, especially if they get bounced early from the playoffs and decide to break things up a bit?

It gives us the big body we need at the 4 position (where I think he plays best) as well as a nice backup center. It also would allow us to keep Jack (instead of like in the Marion trade I proposed where Jack would be moved). This would be our projected lineup:

Baron/Monta/#14 pick?
Monta/Bukie/Belinelli (moves to backup if Bukie doesn't return)
Jack/Barnes/Belinelli
Nene/Wright/Croshere
Beans/Nene/Perovic

I think this roster would give us a lot more balance, which is something we need. The bigger problem with Nene perhaps is his contract length (he has another 4 years left on it and maxes out at only 11.6 which is not bad if he regains his health).

Do you think he'd be a good fit for us? Does he have the speed for our system or do we split the minutes with Wright so that he only has to give us half a game? With his long deal, it could make it difficult for Wright to break his way into the starting Ro, although I guess we can always trade Nene later if the circumstances dictate it?

[zero]

if it weren't for the health issues i'd consider it.

[Hopper15]

Hmmm...I don't see the option that says "Shoot me dead if this happens"

[turk3d]

I guess you pick 2 then.

[FNQ]

No Legs vs. One Ball...

I'd rather have Al, for sure

[Hopper15]

Al's basically an expiring contract next year (based on my assumption that he'll opt out). I'd rather use full MLE in '09 on somebody rather than being stuck with Nene's bloated body and contract.

[turk3d]

Yep, those are definitely concerns. His salary is about the same as Al's, just longer. As far as Al opting, I wouldn't be too sure of that. Fat contracts are becoming harder by the minute get nowadays and it's looking more and more that way as teams/owners are getting tired of being stuck with this ridiculous contracts. Lewis deal was just an anomaly and Orlando is probably sorry they did it (or will be sorry they did if they get bumped from the playoffs real quick). 11.6 Mil is not bad for a guy of Nene's caliber if he returns to the player he was in the past. Just an idea. Would I rather have him than Al (minus the contract issue)? Yes I would, I feel he would give more of what we need than Al does. Not sure if Nellie would feel that way though.

[crzy]

A big no thanks to Nene's salary and health concerns.

[Yi Jian Lian]

too many health concerns

[old rem]

I think Den has to add a little something,like a couple of rd 2's then the W's have to inspect and feel very good about health-conditioning,and then Mullin needs to get Nellie's pledge that Wright-Nene,and our pick at 14 will all play a reasonable amount.

Right now...I'd prefer we draft Hansborough or Lover,have a high IQ,productive and skilled guy. Al's sometimes hot perimeter game can compliment that,and Al and Wright can see some sf action too.

[Rainbow Jumper]

Funny, I just thought of a Nene/Harrington trade the other day.

Nene and Belli to the Grizz

Al to the Nuggets

Miller and Critt to the Warriors.

In the end I didn't think the Grizz would want to take a risk on Nene, but some of the responses here make me think there may be a chance. What do you all think?

Depth would be addressed at PG and SF, as I am in the re-sign Pietrus camp. The Warriors can then draft a big at #14. I think Love is the perfect fit for the Warriors, he can play the high post with Biedrins and he would be very good in the pick and roll. I also like Maresse Speights and Arthur from Kansas


PG - Baron, Critt
SG - Monta, Pietrus
SF - Jax, Miller, Buike
PF - Wright, Speights or Arthur
C - Beans, POB (I'm still hoping too), Kosta

I guess for the final roster spot I would take a flyer on Haislip, I read 510s little spot on him so I read up on him in DX. I would take him over Cro if the LLE gets it done.

[turk3d]

A lot of people here really like Miller, I don't. We have more than enough shooters on this team, getting Miller keeps us small (even smaller as Al is even a better rebounder/defender than he is. I want to get bigger not, smaller. If Nene returned to form, I'd like him, but may be too small for Nellie ball. Perhaps if he split minutes with BWright and slimmed down a little he could fit in. He and Beans on the boards would be great. Nene also has a great low post game which is something we sure could use. Crit would be nice but he'd be a 3rd stringer so not much of an impact. To be honest I'd prefer Al over Miller. Is it just me?

[Sleepy51]

A lot of people here really like Miller, I don't. We have more than enough shooters on this team

You need to rethink that statement. We have a lot of guys who shoot the ball a lot. We don't have a lot of shooters.

Take a look at the shooting % leaders for the various positions, particularly from 3pt range. You'll see that we really don't have particularly good shooters.

[Rainbow Jumper]

A lot of people here really like Miller, I don't. We have more than enough shooters on this team, getting Miller keeps us small (even smaller as Al is even a better rebounder/defender than he is. I want to get bigger not, smaller. If Nene returned to form, I'd like him, but may be too small for Nellie ball. Perhaps if he split minutes with BWright and slimmed down a little he could fit in. He and Beans on the boards would be great. Nene also has a great low post game which is something we sure could use. Crit would be nice but he'd be a 3rd stringer so not much of an impact. To be honest I'd prefer Al over Miller. Is it just me?

I see where you are coming from, Nene would definitely provide a physical presence.... If he was cleared by the team doctors, on threat that they would lose their jobs if wrong I would do that trade. I think I like the other trade better because the Warriors aren't taking the risk. They get a much needed 3 point shooter and backup PG in Critt. The team would be painfully young and inexperienced at PF, but with a ton of potential for the future.

[turk3d]

I didn't say they were good. I said a lot of shooters. What's the difference in the NBA between a "good" and bad "shooter"? With the exception of a few hopeless cases (not too many survive in the NBA if they do not have some kind of shot) it's shot selection. Our shooters could be good if they took better shot selection (one of the things pointed out many times here on the forum). Miller's good because in general he takes pretty good shot selection. Guys that shoot the higher % for the most part don't take all the bad shots like we take. You bring Miller over here and I can almost guarantee he'll be brickin' too. That $hits contagious.

The other thing I don't like about Miller is he's worse defensively than Al is and not as good a rebounder. Like I said, it just makes us smaller when what we need, if anything is to get bigger. I'd rather get a "bigger" Al if I'm moving him, not a smaller one. I think that koolaid may be wearing you down, my brother.

[Sleepy51]

Turk,
I'm gonna give you one more chance to rethink the idea that we have "shooters" here. We have chuckers. Shooters MAKE thier shots.

here's my No. 1 NBA pet peeve this season: When a lousy long-range shooter has no qualms about jacking up 3-pointers every game. For instance, T-Mac shot 34, 33, 31, 33 and 30 percent on 3s the past five seasons, but that didn't stop him from jacking up 4.5 per game this season. Really, T-Mac? If you can't shoot 3s, why shoot them? Take my beloved Celtics, for whom Tony Allen has improbably launched 121 3s over the past three seasons despite nearly killing a ballboy with one errant shot in 2005. You know how many of those 121 3s went in? Thirty-seven. Every time he shoots a 3, he should be yanked from the game for endangering my dad's health.
Of the famous offenders besides T-Mac, there's LeBron (359 3s, 32 percent shooting), Davis (513 3s, 33 percent), Iverson (274 3s, a career 31 percent shooter), Andre Iguodala (297 3s, 32 percent), Gerald Wallace (221 3s, 32 percent), Lamar Odom (113 3s, 27 percent) and even my man-crush Kevin Durant (203 3s, 29 percent). And let's not forget the nonstars who inexplicably keep launching them, like Kyle Lowry (130 3s, 25 percent), Charlie Villaneuva (180 3s, 30 percent), Willie Green (180 3s, 28 percent) and, my favorite of all, Casey Jacobsen (69 3s, 23 percent). If we banned all of these bricklayers from shooting 3s, the league would be a safer place. And that's my pet peeve for 2008.

[turk3d]

Turk,
I'm gonna give you one more chance to rethink the idea that we have "shooters" here. We have chuckers. Shooters MAKE thier shots.

-= original quote snipped =-

I think we're arguing semantics here, Sleepy. Let's get our terminology straight, maybe that will help. We have shooters, who are chuckers if you will.

Are you trying to tell me that you would rather have Mike Miller than T-Mac, Iguodala (who you say you'd prefer over Baron, Lamar Odom, Gerald Wallace or Kevin Durant?). You can call them whatever you want, but I'd prefer any of those guys over Miller, as I would Baron and even Al. Chucking is just part of the equation. It's easily controlled by the coach through playing time if he wants to (not sure Nellie really wanted to except for maybe right at the end when it was too late).

I'll share a story with you Sleepy although it is baseball but I think it does a good job of illustrating my point. I was Managing a summer little league team some years back (coached baseball from T-ball up to American Legion) and it was not only competitive but it was supposed to be instructional (which I believe all little league should be). I wound up with a mixture of players when a number of teams went in with all star caliber players (allstars from their local districts). In addition the ages were 9-12. There were a number of teams which had a majority of 11 and 12 year olds. I had only 1 or maybe 2 12 year olds and probably just 1 11 year old. The majority of my players were 9 and 10. I tried something quite interesting. Since it was instructional, when we first started out, I asked who wanted to pitch. It required no prior experience, since it was instructional I thought I'd take advantage of my experience as a pitching coach (I pitched some when I played college ball) and would use it to teach anyone who wanted to learn. Almost the entire team raised their hands (actuall started with about 12 from a team of 13 who raided their hands). So I came up with a system to make that possible. At that age it is very dangerous to let kids to throw too many pitches in a game so I instituted a pitch count which was quite low at the beginning of the season (towards the middle of the season I would increase it). Before I let anyone pitch in a game I had them do it in practice. The very first thing that I taught was a proper throwing motion but the second (once I made sure that they weren't doing anything that could hurt their arms) was how to throw strikes. I didn't care how hard they threw, how much movement they had (these are things I would work on with them later if they continued to pitch) it was just that they could get it over the plate. Once they got into games, because I had limited them to just 20-30 pitches a game they basically learned (the ones who were smart) that if they wanted to pitch a lot of innings (more then just 1 or 2) they had to throw strikes and not walk anyone. By mid-season, my best pitchers were getting 3-4 innings (or more, I increased the pitch count to 30-40) and I would pitch anywhere from 3-6 pitchers a game as we went on the win the league. This technique allowed me to weed out the weaker guys (if a guy couldn't throw strikes, worst case would be they leave with the bases loaded and maybe just one run in, which gave me the ability to not get too far behind as a result of a guy who was all over the place).

The point in all this is that there are ways a Manager or coach (especially someone as "slick" as Nellie) to get players to do what he wants. If they aren't doing it, then I have to that Nellie really doesn't want it. Guys like T-Mac, Lebron and even Baron just need to be reigned in by the Coach, they'll do whatever he wants when they realize that they'll get pulled if they don't. Nellie has brought in guys like Bukie, Pietrus, Barnes and even CJ and what do they do? They start chucking too, get the same results and no lesson learned. No incentive whatsoever for Baron, Jack and even Al to not chuck. It's the chuckers who on Nellie's team get the playing time, but the high percentage efficient shooters (other than Monta) get the bench more often than the chuckers do.

You got a couple of "natural" shooters such as Miller, Allen and even Dunleavy (believe or not) but we need bigger bodies, not shooters. We can go around on this one Sleepy, but I stand my ground. BTW, it would not surprise me (if he came over here) that Miller would become a chucker over here playing under Nellie. That's one of Nellie's strategies (shoot 45 3s a game. so what if you hit only 30%). With no inside presence (which would be even worse with him replacing Al), Miller's game would also suffer I believe and we'd get beaten up even more on the boards. At least Al can do battle inside when he wants to.

Once more, we have plenty of "shooters" on this team (maybe too many imo), we just may not have good ones. We don't need to go out and get any more shooters, we just need to teach the ones we have how to shoot more efficently, that's all. Maybe we just have to agree to disagree on this one. You know I respect your opinion and appreciate your excellent insights on many things that you post (most of them actually).

[Sleepy51]

It important to look at Baron's historical shooting %'s they don't get significantly better even with fewer 3ball attempts. He's just not a good shooter. It's no good form, he doesn't square up, he shoots from his chest, his elbow doesn't get under the ball. Jack has the slowest release known to man and has zero elevation, shooting a set shot rather than a jumper.

These are guys who will pretty much always be low 30% shooters, and considering how well Baron finishes inside, you're really talking about a mid 20% distance shooter for him.

I would never call either of them shooters. Baron is a scorer. A scorer has to be willing to shoot a jumpshot to keep defenders honest. I won't hold that against him, but for crissakes, 500 3's? It's a joke.

My only point is that someone has to take the ball out of Jack and Baron's hands at the arc. Someone HAS TO. You can't have those two clowns believing that they are the outside shooters for this team/system. That's why we played so much better on the nights when Al didn't stink, and it's why we missed Jason so bad.

I'm not even advocating Miller in this particular discussion, I'm just saying someone has to be a better % shooter than those two boobs.

Baron taking 500 3 pointers has to be the dumbest thing that happened in this league in 2008 after Yi was selected.

[floppymoose]

What's the difference in the NBA between a "good" and bad "shooter"?

A playoff spot.

[Sleepy51]

-= original quote snipped =-


A playoff spot.

To answer Turk's question straight on, the difference is the work they put in on developing a consistent, repeatable jumpshot. The diffference between a shooter and a non-shooter at the NBA level is practicing the same shot 1000s more times than the non-shooters practice it.

In the top 18 in 3pt attempts this season, Baron is the ONLY guy who shot below 35%.

Lebron has the most attempts with a 3pt shooting % lower than Baron's and he shot a whopping 250 fewer 3pt attempts.

Baron is 3rd in 3pt attempts and he is 104th in 3pt% amongs qualified players. There are only 118 players who qualified in attempts to be listed. ONE HUNDRED AND FORTH.

For reference, Jrich too 600 3pt attempts this season and knocked them down at 40%. That my friend is a shooter.

It's not semantics. It's a travesty.