Warriors Salaries / Salary Cap / Luxury Tax Situation

[cladden]

Everybody needs to stop using the "pass first" cliche.

There have been two contending level NBA talents at PG who were pass first players in my lifetime: Stockton & Kidd. Both had HOF talent, and neither won a ring. When you look at their teams and where they fell short, they both should have put the ball in the hole more. If your point guard is your best player, 1) occupying major salary, 2) major shelf space in your talent pantry, 3)and time with the ball, they have to be a scorer. Magic, Isiah, Cousy, Big O, Tiny, these guys were all potent and willing scorers. Cousy was a 19ppg guy over his career. Big O put up 30 per game in his greatest season. Pass first pg works as a secondary player, with a Shaq or Kobe or Olojuwan or Jordan or Dr. J or Bird as a truly dominant scoring best player out in front. It does not win rings if your best player is a "pass first" guy. It's beautiful basketball, but it's the wrong formula for a ring. Kidd and Stockton were always the best player, but they did not score enough for being the best players to deliver against the likes of the Magic's and Isiah's of the world. A lot of what makes the game easier for guys who play next to truly great scoring PG's is that the entire defense has to honor helping out agianst the PG. IF the playmaker is always a threat to score, none of the other 4 defenders can play thier own men honest. AC Green becomes a heck of a lot more player when you have to cheat off of him. Thrul Bailey & Blue Edwards don't become that player when you can count on Stockton giving up the ball "making the right basketball play" as long as one defender does their job on him.

The issue isn't avoiding your own shot to fit some purist archetype. The issue is to not be a dumbass with the ball, and get GREAT shots for yourself or a teammate. A "best player" Point guard's primary job is to break down the defense, get defenders switching and into motion. Doing that by giving up the ball isn't necessarily better than doing it by torching your man for 25 (at high efficiency.) A great point guard makes the best decision even if it's to get their own shot. As long as the defense ends up broken and someone gets an easy shot it has a cumulative effect over the course of a game, and everyone ends up getting easier shots as the D starts cheating to compensate. But the team HAS to take the best shot, and if you are a 50% shooter, your number is going to come up a lot, and it should.

How was Malone not exactly the kind of primary player you're talking about?
BTW. He averaged more than Olajuwon and Bird ever did.

Ofcourse, if there was no Jordan-led bulls Stock would probably have about two rings.

[Sleepy51]

How was Malone not exactly the kind of primary player you're talking about?
BTW. He averaged more than Olajuwon and Bird ever did.

Ofcourse, if there was no Jordan-led bulls Stock would probably have about two rings.

I knew someone would fall into the Karl Malone trap. He's the NBA all time turnover leader. He did not excel as an isolation scorer until very late in his career when he established some range. He was a finisher, and a hard worker and he played the Utah system to perfection, but he was not a "take over the game" scorer. Stockton made Malone a scorer, but not a champion. Malone was never the kind of player to control the game with the ball in his hands the way the Championship greats were.

In his championship season, Olajuwan was such a better basketball player than Malone on the offensive end, it illustrates my point quite nicely.

It goes against the purist sensibilities that we all know we're supposed to respect, but it just hasn't produced rings in this league. It just hasn't.

Monta needs to be the best guard on the floor when we play. He should pass when he should pass, and he should shoot when he should shoot. Just be the best. Pass first is bogus.

[Sid the Squid]

I look at it differently...Stockton and Kidd both led their team to the finals twice..You do that? That's a succesful career in my book...Jordan and Pippen were just better than everybody else...JKidd's teammates in NJ sucked donkey balls in comparison the lakers roster..

I see Magic Johnson as a "pass-first" PG who won 5 championships...I consider Cousey a "pass-first" PG....Mo Cheeks was a D-first and pass 2nd PG...Scoring was down on his list...

The 4 best pass-first PG's ive ever watched are 1. Magic...2. Nash...3. Stockton...4. JKidd.....They've all had wonderful careers..Championships? You need luck with your rosters..Magic had it all.

[Sleepy51]

I look at it differently...Stockton and Kidd both led their team to the finals twice..You do that? That's a succesful career in my book...Jordan and Pippen were just better than everybody else...JKidd's teammates in NJ sucked donkey balls in comparison the lakers roster..

I see Magic Johnson as a "pass-first" PG who won 5 championships...I consider Cousey a "pass-first" PG....Mo Cheeks was a D-first and pass 2nd PG...Scoring was down on his list...

The 4 best pass-first PG's ive ever watched are 1. Magic...2. Nash...3. Stockton...4. JKidd.....They've all had wonderful careers..Championships? You need luck with your rosters..Magic had it all.

I didn't say Stockton and Kidd didn't have successful careers. They have had extraordinary careers. That's not the point. A PG who defers the scoring duties can't be the best player on your team if you're going to beat teams who's best player does score the ball, for a ring. It sucks, but it doesn't happen. To be BETTER than everybody else, you quite frankly have to be a superior scorer as well. Kidd and Stockton weren't and it was a big hole.

i]I define the pass first thing just like it sounds. PASS FIRST. The purpose of a pass 1st guy having the ball in their hands is to deliver it to someone else. That doesn't describe Magic or Couz. They were truly multidimensional threats every time the ball was in their hands. They were in part so effective as passers because the threat of them scoring made it easier for them to pass. No such luck for Kidd and Stockton, you only needed to play them to pass. I don't think not calling Magic or Cousy or Isiah pass 1st makes them "score 1st," it makes them perfect. They played the position perfectly. They brought more to the table than the guys who didn't score.

Magic was not a pass first PG he was a career 20ppg scorer. Yeah, he passed willingly and beautifully, but he would always beat his man and put the ball in the bucket when it was the right play. There was no deferring in Magic. Last play of the game, Magic is running a play for Magic to score. Your best player has to be able to do that.

Cousy was a 18 point, 7 assist guy over his career. Again, totally willing passer, but he was not a pass first guy as we romantically describe him. He was unselfish, but he was a playmaker 1st and foremost, and THE PLAY was Cousy knocking down shots as often as not.

Stockton OTOH was a 13 ppg guy, often finishing seasons at as little as 11 ppg. I know ppg isn't the be all end all, but if you're a starting player putting in 40mpg and spending the most time with the ball, you have to be carrying more of the load than that. Especially when your mailman can't hold the rock. (I wonder how many Stockton assists were blown by KarlMalone turnovers?

Mo Cheeks was not the best player on his team. Ever. He played with Moses, J, and Barkely at various times. His contribution was absolutely vital to the Sixers winning a championship, but he wasn't the focal point of the offense as a "Pass 1st" guy. The team did not require Mo to make plays. He was a roleplayer. Moses and J were scoring 25 and 20 for that team without depending on Mo to set them up. A pass 1st PG is a complimentary piece to go with great scorers. A pass 1st PG as your best player (the original statement) is going to lose in the intense games to someone willing to dominate the game.

Iverson got every bit as far toward a ring as a PG as Kidd did, but with substantially worse teammates.

Put the ball in the hole.

[Twinkie defense]

Everybody needs to stop using the "pass first" cliche.

There have been two contending level NBA talents at PG who were pass first players in my lifetime: Stockton & Kidd. Both had HOF talent, and neither won a ring. When you look at their teams and where they fell short, they both should have put the ball in the hole more. If your point guard is your best player, 1) occupying major salary, 2) major shelf space in your talent pantry, 3)and time with the ball, they have to be a scorer

I had forgotten how many rings AI has won.

Basketball is a team sport, and someone - typically your PG - has to defer his scoring in order to keep the game flowing, get his teammates involved, create easy scoring opportunities, or the team is unlikely to be successful. The jury is out on whether Monta can be successful at that or not, but the Warriors will be a lot better off if he can... or, if he can't, if they find someone who can.

[Sleepy51]

I had forgotten how many rings AI has won.

Basketball is a team sport, and someone - typically your PG - has to defer his scoring in order to keep the game flowing, get his teammates involved, create easy scoring opportunities, or the team is unlikely to be successful. The jury is out on whether Monta can be successful at that or not, but the Warriors will be a lot better off if he can... or, if he can't, if they find someone who can.

AI is a low efficiency volume scorer. There are problems with his game that have nothing to do with not deferring to order of magnitude inferior teammates.

There are other options in the point guard discussion than either a pass first deferrential approach, or Allen Iverson's issues. But I defy you to show me a team that won an NBA championship with it's best playing contributing only 13 ppg because their "pass first" approach won out? It hasn't happened. The first rule of the game is to put the ball in the hole. you throw out Iverson, I throw back Isiah Thomas. Where's your non-scoring franchise PG with the rings?

Folks are getting the point twisted. I did not say that a pass first point guard can't be a part of a successful or a championship team. What I've said here in response for a call for Monta to become a pass first player, is that FRANCHISE players at the PG position MUST BE scoring threats to win rings. If you are a deferrential player, then someone else has to carry it across the goal line. And team salaries, identities and roles have to be established accordingly. Franchise players have to be able to do it all. Scoring is a part of "all."

That said, AI achieved as much as far as NBA rings as Stockton and Kidd combined, but with worse teammates, so blow it out your ass.

[Twinkie defense]

You can be pass first and still score... I would put Magic very much in that category (any player who decides who the MVP of the All Star game is not "score first," which is the logical counter to what you're calling pass first). Similarly, Chris Paul and Deron WIlliams are more concerned with getting the team going than getting their own.

If you've got Kobe, Jordan, Duncan, or Boston's Big Three on your team, having a "QB" PG is less of a concern. Warriors don't have that. So if Monta is their best player, a guy who needs to worry about getting his own first, for the betterment of the team, that's fine... but it means they'd better plug someone else in there to run the show.

[GSWbandwagon]

just because stockton and kidd didn't win titles doesn't mean that its not possible. kidd didn't win a title because his teams weren't good enough. if kidd shoots a little more, nj still loses to la and san antonio. nj was easily the inferior team both times.

stockton owns the biggest shots in jazz franchise history. malone owns the biggest turnover. it could be argued that if stockton had held it himself on that possession (up 1, last 30 seconds) instead of letting malone try to score and end up turning it over, maybe utah wins the title. but stockton hit a 3 just before that which gave them the lead in the first place. stockton should've shot a little more, and maybe he wins a ring if he does, but he also had the bad fortune of having his team peak when jordan was still more or less in his prime (the very end of it, but still the dominant player in the league).

[Sleepy51]

Magic was not a pass first player. That's such a crock. (And what happens in All Star Games should stay in All Star games . . . are you gonna quote Jaramio Moon's Globetrotter stats to me next?)

Yes, Magic was an unselfish player. That is not the same thing as a deferential player like Kidd or Stockton. Magic was a big time scorer and he pressed his advantage for his shot all the time. Stockton/Kidd were/are significantly different in their approach to their offensive responsibility. They were/are flat out deferential players, which is the issue I'm taking with the "pass first" hoax. It's romanticized hoosiers crap.

I am comming to this conversation from the premise that Monta Ellis is a franchise player type of talent. I realize you are in the "Monta's a country (Please Use More Appropriate Word) and can never be anything more than a simple minded scorer" camp, so that's probably why we are looking at this differently. But for those of us who don't hate Monta, to be a franchise player at the PG position, he needs to score. He needs to set up the best shot on the floor, and at his efficiency level, he needs to not hesitate to call his own number.

[Sleepy51]

I'm gonna let the ball lie in your court on this one.

Show me the franchise players who led teams to rings behind a low teens scoring average. Franchise players, best player on the team, top salary slot, leader, go to guy <16ppg.

Show me.

[GSWbandwagon]

bill russell - 11 rings, 15 ppg.

magic scored somewhat more than the bar you set, but he usually was the 3rd leading scorer on his title teams. magic's ppg were inflated because his teams scored 15 ppg more than stockton's did.

[Sleepy51]

bill russell - 11 rings, 15 ppg.

magic scored somewhat more than the bar you set, but he usually was the 3rd leading scorer on his title teams. magic's ppg were inflated because his teams scored 15 ppg more than stockton's did.

(This discussion was about Monta's role as a Pg) But sure, I wasn't specific enough in my last post, so I'll even give you that one. ONE player out of all the NBA seasons you've dilligently been combing the stats for. One player who didn't score a lot but who also happened to be the single greatest interior defensive player ever to touch the hardwood. You got me. Bill Russel was an excellent pass first point guard, and that proves that Kidd and Stockton played the game better than Isiah or Magic or Archibald.

Magic's points were inflated because he scored the damn ball. From 79 to 91 he averaged less than 17 ppg exactly once. His numbers are inflated because he was a better basketball player (because he scored.)

[Twinkie defense]

Sleepy you're trying to set up a straw man argument.

I don't think anyone's saying Monta ought to go back to scoring 15 or 16 ppg.

The point is someone needs to run the team on the court, and that entails a certain deference, a willingness to put others and the team ahead of calling your own number as the first option.

I lived in Santa Barbara all through the 80's, the Lakers were my favorite team, and Magic my favorite player. And Magic could have averaged 30 a game. Easily. He didn't because more important to him was running the team... and there would have been no "Showtime," no rings, without that. Before Stockton, Magic was the League all-time career assists leader. To me that's the very definition of pass-first.

Similarly, for the Warriors, Tim Hardaway and Baron Davis (when he didn't degenerate into pounding the ball and chucking... when the team became notably worse) were very effective "quarterbacks" on the court. But that didn't mean never shooting, or scoring under 15 ppg.

I love football, so to use another football analogy: Mike Vick was a dynamic runner, probably the best runner on the Falcons. Certainly, the highest paid. He ran for over 1,000 yards one season, which is the benchmark for a premier running back. Does that mean their main option should be Mike Vick running the ball? Of course not. That might help Mike Vick's stats but it's not going to help the team contend... he needs to run the offense first, get other guys involved, and call his own number when it made sense.

I love Monta, he's my favorite Warrior. I also think the team needs a dynamic, team first, distribute the rock player at PG. Some people think Monta can become that, some don't. I don't think many though are saying the Warriors don't need someone to fill that role, whether it's Monta or someone else.

[Sleepy51]

So we agree. The "pass first" distinction" brought up in the post that started this line of discussion is hogwash. Point guards who score and distribute are way more valuable than guys who defer scoring responsibility like Stockton or Kidd (because those are the only truly "pass first" players of note at the postition.)

Monta needs to learn how to RUN A TEAM (which he's already progressing with very nicely.) Pass first has nothing to do with succeeding.

I'm glad we could settle that.

[Twinkie defense]

If anyone other than you stated pass first = less than 15ppg, then yes, they were wrong too.

[Sleepy51]

And WTF does Mike Vick have to do with anything? Talk about a strawman . . .

[Twinkie defense]

Now you're just trying to change the subject.

[Sleepy51]

Wha?

You brought up a (Please Use More Appropriate Word) comparison to a completely different sport. Me noticing that you threw a strawman in the mix is changing the subject? You're nuts.

[Chris Cohan]

This is a good one.

[Twinkie defense]

Straw Man: a logical fallacy of ethos in which the arguer greatly simplifies an opponent's argument in order to make it easier to attack. e.g., pass first = a "franchise players who led teams to rings... best player on the team, top salary slot, leader, go to guy <16ppg"

Analogy: drawing a comparison in order to show a similarity in some respect. e.g., just because you have an athlete who is dominant in one aspect of the game, and highly paid, doesn't mean that athlete should focus on that one dominant skill to the exclusion of the skills that will make his team better.

Either Monta needs to develop his leadership abilities, excel at getting his teammates involved, run the team on the floor;

OR

Warriors need to find a guy who will, and play him alongside Monta.

Otherwise, the Warriors aren't going to be that good.