RealGM

- Patrick O'Bryant: 392th, 32, 12.8, -72%

O'Bryant's 07-08 began with the Warriors' decision to decline his third-year option, which essentially met he was a dead man walking in Golden State all season long. His per minute numbers aren't exactly horrible, but he needs a fresh start in a system better suited to his game.

Even when I interviewed him the day before his draft, he was clearly not a guy who had a fire within himself to become a great basketball player. He defines what I like to call 'The Apathetic Center,' who would prefer to be just about anything else but a basketball player if he wasn't 7-0.

A brief list of useful players taken after O'Bryant in 2006: Rajon Rondo, Jordan Farmar, Ronnie Brewer, Paul Millsap, Leon Powe, Kyle Lowry.

http://www.realgm.com/src_fromtherafters/158/20080425/auditing_the_warriors_2007_08_season/

His 'lack of desire to improve' is serious problem?

Mullin is an idiot. For drafting him, and then letting him do without developing.

Apathetic Cs > midgets @ PF

All those "useful" players got opportunities to play and I don't believe one of them got sent to D. It doesn't matter how good you might be if your coach chooses not to play you and has a management which is too weak to dictate otherwise.

turk3d wrote:All those "useful" players got opportunities to play and I don't believe one of them got sent to D. It doesn't matter how good you might be if your coach chooses not to play you and has a management which is too weak to dictate otherwise.

And now another revelation in the POB saga...we have not only dumb Nellie but also a weak front office for not standing up to our evil coach. Perhaps the writer reviewing POB was being menaced by Nellie and on the payroll of our weak management.

The conspiracy continues...

turk3d wrote:All those "useful" players got opportunities to play and I don't believe one of them got sent to D. It doesn't matter how good you might be if your coach chooses not to play you and has a management which is too weak to dictate otherwise.

Based on what,is POB apathetic? Who KNOWS the guy? Obviously none of us ever saw him get any serious minutes or opportunity in the NBA. he did fine in the D league...are 90% of D-league guys MORE apathetic?

NOTHING seems good enough,huh?

Turk is right on....we DID take the long-athletic-upside guy. Blew it. Before that--we took a guy who'd been roadtested-proved to have the core big man skills and tools...but we blew that too. why not...we had a unique talent in Murphy--bulked him up 25 lb then fussed he didn't run and jump like he used too (duh?) We played Dun everywhere but the position he seems to now be good at. J Rich was a success..a 20+ scorer with heart and hops...traded him for another project we don't use.

NONE of us have any way to judge or analyze POB. Me included. I can say how T Hansborough plays...I've seen him a dozen times in a full time context. I have yet to see O'Bryant off the short leash. Given the miserable way he's been treated,he could look much worse.

St.Nick wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



And now another revelation in the POB saga...we have not only dumb Nellie but also a weak front office for not standing up to our evil coach. Perhaps the writer reviewing POB was being menaced by Nellie and on the payroll of our weak management.

The conspiracy continues...

Doesn't mean the coach was dumb, just means he was WRONG. The ones who were really dumb (in my estimation) was not really "ones" but one and that's cHRIS Mullin. He's the one who drafted POB #9, he's the GM/VP (last time I heard), he must have thought the kid had talent (otherwise he wouldn't have drafted him), and just because Nellie didn't like him for one reason or another (from the standpoint that he refused to give him an honest chance to show what he could do) there's no reason that Mullin had to let Nellie have his way on it. He could have easily said (as GM/boss) that he wanted the kid to get minutes to see what he could do and Nellie would have had to play him (similar to what I think happened with Wright) instead he decided not to resign him and keep him on ice the entire season. He should have traded him for a future 2nd at the very least. THERE WAS NO CONSPIRACY THAT WAS JUST PLAIN AND SIMPLE DUMB/STUPID MANAGEMENT.

It was completely Mullys fault for drafting POB. He never watched the kid play in person until the day before the draft and likely never got to know what kind of character that POB had. I have stated this from the beginning.

What I dont understand is how people flip out on Nellie for Mullys mistake (EDIT: actually I do understand it, and see clearly how it ties into the whole sad little anti-Nellie propaganda movement). Certainly if Mully really believed in POB then he would have forced Nellie to give him more run (at least during garbage time). Instead, they let POB ride the bench, get sent down to the DLeague continuously, and still didnt make a protest.

More likely than Nellie being blind to POBs talents and Mully/the front office being too weak to say anything about it is that POB simply didnt deserve minutes and all were in consensus. Remember that they watch POB regularly during practice and I am sure have spent hours discussing how to get production and value out of him. Sadly, the kid simply wasnt up to snuff.

Could POB have been traded for a 2nd round pick? Probably not. Common sense dictates that Mullin was trying to trade him for something last season. I simply dont think that POB has the highest value around the league and teams knew that he would be a UFA in the offseason, when he could be added without giving up any draft picks.

Our team could have held onto him and waited for him to come around, therefore raising his trade value and perhaps becoming a contributing member of the team. But again, the kid simply did not appear to have the drive inside of him to get better. So the salary implications of keeping him outweighed the chance that he could become valuable enough to gain something like a second round pick via trade.

This whole ordeal was simply about an unprepared GM making a bad pick in a bad draft. That will happen, as nobody bats 1000. You can definitely lay blame on Mully for the pick, but really you have to look at POB and just shake your head in disgust. The only person that wasted the natural abilities of POB was POB himself.

i could give a crap about POB. I'm over the POB era.

old rem wrote:NONE of us have any way to judge or analyze POB. Me included. I can say how T Hansborough plays...I've seen him a dozen times in a full time context. I have yet to see O'Bryant off the short leash. Given the miserable way he's been treated,he could look much worse.

Who the f gives a crap about Hansboro? He's not in the draft and he never has, and in all liklihood never will wear a Warriors jersey.

Don't be a McDew.

We won't know whether Mullen screwed up when he drafted POB or whether Mullin screwed up by not picking up POB's third year for another three years. We also won't know whether Nellie screwed up by not playng POB until the end of next year.

We don't know what Cohan has told Mullin about how much he is allowed to spend this off-season. We don't know if Mullin thinks he is going to make a run at some high priced free agent and needs every available dollar to stay under the luxury tax.

We don't know what it will cost to keep Ellis and Biedrins.

From the little that I have seen of POB I am convinced he is an NBA player worthy of 20+ minutes a game if he is capable of sustained effort to be as good as he can be. From a few interviews I get the impression that POB is intelligent and is not some mixed up ghetto kid who would surround himself with people that have criminal tendencies. I have never heard that POB has a bum knee or any other physical problem that would stop him from having a long NBA career. The only accusation against POB that seems likely to be true is that he may have problems motivating himself to care about basketball.

Carlos Rogers and Clifford Rozier were also clearly NBA players if their heads were right and their health was good but cutting them turned out to be correct.

Mullins record as a drafter is slightly above average even if POB is a wasted draft pick. Andris was the correct pick. The best player available when Diogu was picked turns out to have been Monta Ellis. Mullin probably should have taken Bynum at that spot but the other players between Diogu and Monta Ellis have not ben very impressive.

Players are missed on all the time because a coach or the management chooses not to give them court time to ACTUALLY SEE what they have or don't have.

From what I've seen with muy own 2 eyes, he was worthy of playing minutes behind Biedrins. He was the better option than the midgets we played at the power positions.

Based on the problems we've had with rebounding and shot blocking once Beans sits, I think I'm right.

And clearly for Nick to say Mullin could have forced Nellie's hand is incorrect. If you think that, then I've got a bridge that you might be iterested in purchasing.

Mylie10 wrote:Players are missed on all the time because a coach or the management chooses not to give them court time to ACTUALLY SEE what they have or don't have.

From what I've seen with muy own 2 eyes, he was worthy of playing minutes behind Biedrins. He was the better option than the midgets we played at the power positions.

Based on the problems we've had with rebounding and shot blocking once Beans sits, I think I'm right.

And clearly for Nick to say Mullin could have forced Nellie's hand is incorrect. If you think that, then I've got a bridge that you might be iterested in purchasing.

Nellie knows how to build up a players trade value, lest you have forgotten about the Indiana trade. It would go against logic for him to simply waste an asset which could potentially be turned into something valuable. Most likely POB simply was so atrocious during practice, it was simply impossible to expect to get anything out of him by playing him in games.

Now if you can find some examples of past Nellie teams where Nellie completely screwed up by not playing and then letting go of a talented young player, I would love to hear about it. If you cant, then I am going to have to go with Nellie and Mullys "two eyes" over yours, Mylie.

Its funny that you think that your watching him for four summer league games and about 30 minutes during the regular season has given you a superior perspective over the entire legion of professionals watching him every single day over the past two seasons.

Of course as Gatling pointed out, nobody will know the answer on POB until next season. But to give him so much credit after showing what he did and getting run out of town after two years...it seems like an insult to our coach and our organization. If they were THAT dumb on player evaluation and development then we would look be an NBA equivalent of the Washington Generals and not a 48 win team with a fantastic looking crop of young players.

Mylie10 wrote:Players are missed on all the time because a coach or the management chooses not to give them court time to ACTUALLY SEE what they have or don't have.

From what I've seen with muy own 2 eyes, he was worthy of playing minutes behind Biedrins. He was the better option than the midgets we played at the power positions.

Based on the problems we've had with rebounding and shot blocking once Beans sits, I think I'm right.

And clearly for Nick to say Mullin could have forced Nellie's hand is incorrect. If you think that, then I've got a bridge that you might be iterested in purchasing.

Bingo. There have been plenty of players who were rarely given a chance somewhere and flourished elsewhere... to say that its finite either way is ridiculous. The thing is, the "pro-POB" side just wants to see what he can do based on his amazing physical abilities... the "con-POB" side has already written him off... it's common sense vs. extremism.

510Reggae wrote:-= original quote snipped =-




Bingo. There have been plenty of players who were rarely given a chance somewhere and flourished elsewhere... to say that its finite either way is ridiculous. The thing is, the "pro-POB" side just wants to see what he can do based on his amazing physical abilities... the "con-POB" side has already written him off... it's common sense vs. extremism.

This is the most correct thing that you have ever said. Just reverse which side is using common sense and which is being extreme.

To quote a great man: "Practice. PRACTICE!?! We're talking about practice."

I never had the luxury to sit in on Warriors practices and see exactly how bad the POB haters claim he must have been.

I believe the exact quote is:

St. Nick wrote:Most likely POB simply was so atrocious during practice, it was simply impossible to expect to get anything out of him by playing him in games.

Most likely? I would say "most likely" POB could have helped win more games, like he was critical in helping us get our first win against the Clippers. Against one of the top centers in the league that was pushing our starter around to the tune of 5 fouls in 33 minutes.

I will always place more importance on the concreteness of how much fire, poise and wherewithal a player displays during a game than on the abstractness of the assumed lack of impressiveness during practices that are never seen.

I fully believe that POB wasn't the greatest practice player but Nellie should have had the intellectual flexibility to understand that not all players behave the same way. The fact that POB rose to the occasion when it counted most, ie. during a game, is far more important to judging his usefulness than his short-comings in practice.

We will all see how good POB will be in the future and then we'll be able to all agree that our GM was spineless and our HC was limited in his thinking.[/quote]

thinkingwarriors wrote:I fully believe that POB wasn't the greatest practice player but Nellie should have had the intellectual flexibility to understand that not all players behave the same way. The fact that POB rose to the occasion when it counted most, ie. during a game, is far more important to judging his usefulness than his short-comings in practice.

And we shall remember that game...November 16th, 2007...forever and ever and evermore...for that was the one game in which POB actually played like a professional basketball player.

Let us never forget! Let it fuel our imaginations and cast doubt upon our foolish coaches, scouts, and front office people who had no vision in being able to look past two years of sub-mediocrity and failed to see this one, solitary game as a defining moment!

This is the game that we shall point to whenever we remember the one that got away...Patrick McGillicudy Robert Parish Patty Cakes O'Bryant.

Actually what I'm going off of was Last year against the Clippers. He held his own against a good Clipper team.

Last years D- league play.

This summer against Bynum twice. Obee was clearly in his league and he played him very well. (That was the first time that the staff was actually allowing him regular court time).

This year there were about 3 total games that he played well.

He had one forgetfull outing against the Lakers where Nellie surprised him with a critical minute after weeks of nothing. The kid laid an egg and was not ready FOR THAT GAME.

I believe Patricks the type of kid you put your arm around and nuture a bit. It can be done and I believe Nellie has enough time in his busy day that he could have handled Patrick differently.

But Nellie does things one way and that's it.

Biedrins said Patrick was prcticing and working hard. He didn't know why Pat was in the state that Nellie had put him in. But he did say that he never wanted to be in that position.

After hearing (or reading) those words I began to feel that it was personal with Nellie. Something happened that turned him off completely.

You could argue that from O'Bryants perspective he was mistreated from the very beginning. The list can be laid out for you again if you'd like, but hopefully someone else will do it.

And then finally I saw that he played really well again in the D-League. Only to get called up and benched again.

There was no apparant reason for the mistreatment. Non that has ever been truly stated by the organization. They didn't do anything to get value back for a player they didn't like.

To top it off they sign Kosta to a 2 year deal, in a year where they penny pinched in every instance. No consistancy there.

As for showcasing Dunleavy and Murphy to get better value?

He did nothing of the sort and resorted to calling them a disaster.

Oh well, we got rid of them and to Mullin I give major kudos. Fantastic move.

I see my self as more realistic than you Nick. you almost always fall on the Nellie side in every instance. I do sometimes, but I also am not blind to the ways of the world and realize that no one man is perfect. They make mistakes.

It will be proven over time if we could have pulled something out of the kid or gotten some value coming back for him.

I just think for this specific team at this specific time we could have use MORE LENGTH, and MORE REBOUNDING, instead of resorting to Pietrus and Buki at power positions. Not to mention Webber, Benga, etc.

When it comes to Nellie...I dont think of him as an Old Dumb Bastard, as our team improved greatly since his arrival. We have drafted well, we have traded well, and we have gotten better both for the present and for the future.

This gives him credibility on issues that take place behind the scenes. POB on the other hand has what credibility? One or two decent NBA games and some D-League experience. What does that really amount to?

Answer me this...If you had to stake something valuable on this topic, would you bet on POB soon becoming a quality NBA player or would you bet on Nellie judging him correctly to be a bust?

Perhaps we could make this bet "interesting"...