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Opinions on current warriors roster

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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#61 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Aug 1, 2008 7:26 am

Sleepy51 wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote:Exactly, end of smallball. This is the thing I didn't understand why some of you weren't more ecstatic about when Maggette signed. The writing was on the wall.


The maggs signing impacts Nellie's propensity to go small?


Getting Maggette had a ripple effect on the whole roster - Monta slides over to the point, where his size is more appropriate, Jackson is a big two, Maggette is a traditional SF, Biedrins at center, and Harrington not playing center.

Sure getting Randolph and then Turiaf right after Maggette was part of that process too.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#62 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:14 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:
Getting Maggette had a ripple effect on the whole roster - Monta slides over to the point, where his size is more appropriate, Jackson is a big two, Maggette is a traditional SF, Biedrins at center, and Harrington not playing center.

Sure getting Randolph and then Turiaf right after Maggette was part of that process too.


We've always played a traditional 3. Jack is a 3. He's just a crappy rebounding 3. Years of extremely unskilled players has a lot of warrior fans convinced that anyone with decent ballhandling skill is a point-something. Jack is a 3. Maggs is a 3. Bukie is a 3. Barnes was a 3. Pete was a 3. Having another 3 in Maggette didn't change the position dynamic around here.

Having bigs that Nellie wants to play is what changes the smallball picture.

And Monta slid over to point in February when Baron's wheels fell off. That was a done deal long before Maggette got here.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#63 » by Chris Cohan » Fri Aug 1, 2008 6:19 pm

You've got to get past this issue with 2/3 distinctions you've got.
6'5"-6'8" and under 230 lbs. is most of the league.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#64 » by JimmyTD3 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 8:50 pm

I don't see what the problem is with having a bunch of swingmen/players who play more than 1 position.

The myth that a player has to have a set position to be good is so stupid and has been proven wrong so many times. Jordan, Kobe, McGrady, Pierce, Vince, LeBron, R-Jeff, S-Jax, Igudola, etc. can all play the 2 and the 3.

AI, Monta, Wade, Gordon, Roy all slide between the 1 and the 2. Marion, Josh Smith, Rashard, Odom, Artest can all play the 3 and 4.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#65 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 9:10 pm

Stringcheese wrote:I don't see what the problem is with having a bunch of swingmen/players who play more than 1 position.

The myth that a player has to have a set position to be good is so stupid and has been proven wrong so many times. Jordan, Kobe, McGrady, Pierce, Vince, LeBron, R-Jeff, S-Jax, Igudola, etc. can all play the 2 and the 3.

AI, Monta, Wade, Gordon, Roy all slide between the 1 and the 2. Marion, Josh Smith, Rashard, Odom, Artest can all play the 3 and 4.


Those are very good points, and no one is saying that having versitile players isn't a good thing. But, even amongst "versitile" players, there are roles some guys are better and worse suited for.

Among those guys you listed as 1/2 or 2/3's those are all are extremely good ballhandlers, passers, scoreres and/or defenders who can command the floor of a basketball court. I.E. they have GUARD SKILLS. (Jack is probably the weakest player in that list but sure, he still qualifies.) Bukie isn't in your list, and with good reason. He doesn't have 2 guard skills.

The guys that you have tabbed as 3/4's are all oversized/overpowering at the 3 spot but with the finesse skill to hang there. They aren't SF sized guys being played at the 4 because the coach doesn't like his bigs. Pete isn't in your list there, he's not a credible 4.

You're making a different arguement, as to weather or not players in general SHOULD be used in multiple roles (and you are using a who's who of the most highly skilled players in the game to do it.) No one's disagreeing with Kobe playing whatever position he wants. I don't care which of the 5 positions Randolph plays at any given moment, because he's going to be in that class. (But you aren't trying to make your argument with the Wally Sczrebiaks of the world I notice)

The real issue in this discussion was not the benefits of versatility, it was weather or not MAggette's versatility did anything to change our frontcourt composition. It didn't. Drafting big men that the coach picked is what will change our smallball approach. The rest of this is poppycock.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#66 » by Twinkie defense » Fri Aug 1, 2008 9:55 pm

Poppycock, wow that's harsh Sleepy ;)

There is definitely too much reliance on "twos" "threes" and "fours." A guy is a big, a small, or a PG. Yes 'Buike has the height of a "two," but not the passing ability. But he has the shot. And he has the strength of a "three," and post-up ability, but not the height to be as effective at it against a bigger player. Like many of our players, he's a tweener. Monta's a tweener, Jack's a tweener, Randolph's a tweener, Al's a tweener, and 'Buike's a tweener. Welcome to the League, and especially, to the Warriors.

So Jack can play in the backcourt - wasn't he doing just that for the Champion Spurs? - and plugging him in there, off the ball, and Monta in the middle makes us 2/5 bigger than we were, and more traditional with the lineup.

Similarly having Randolph, Hendrix, and Turiaf lend themselves to less Warriors smallball... but one difference there is that Maggette will definitely get a lot of minutes, simply based on skill level, while those other guys might not.

But still: Monta/Jackson/Maggette/Harrington/Biedrins... pretty traditional lineup there, just in need of Wright or Randolph supplanting Harrington as a starting big.

Larger point is that I don't think smallball is Nellie's preferred approach, as many have suggested. I just think he wants skilled basketball players who can create mismatches out there, and that those types of players are easier to get when they're under 6" 10". But I have no doubt that if he had the players to roll out five long, skilled basketball players, he would do just that, and love every minute of it. Luckily, with the stockpiling of long, athletic basketball players lately, we may be able to do just that before too long.

PS before the draft, Nellie alluded that he would take Randolph #1 overall if he could. Lot of faith in that kid.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#67 » by Chris Cohan » Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:30 pm

I agree.

Williams and Biedrins may be the only "position" players on the entire roster but I'll bet we'll see Turiaf guard a center while Biedrins guards a PF at some point(s) this season.

Busty and Kosta have hybrid positions: bench/D/Euro.

They're very versatile.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#68 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:48 pm

-ugh :banghead:

whatever else you're going on about is whatever it is, but us going bigger has nothing to do with adding another 3 to the roster. We added big guys who this coach (for now) actually wants to play.

This is making me dizzy.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#69 » by Chris Cohan » Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:52 pm

I agree. If any of these big guys can play (Turiaf was such a dumb signing), we'll eb a significantly different team, for the WAY better. Dumb front office. Dumb.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#70 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:54 pm

I mean seriously. If you keep saying that the reason we can finally start playing the guys on the roster who are taller than 6'8" is because we finally added a wing player with moderate guard skills that we were always lacking, I going to shoot myself in the face . . . I mean it. I'm gonna go get my gun now. Seriously.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#71 » by Chris Cohan » Fri Aug 1, 2008 10:59 pm

We have more beef now. There's no guarantee it changes anything about Nelson's approach.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#72 » by Sleepy51 » Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:01 pm

Twinkie defense wrote:Larger point is that I don't think smallball is Nellie's preferred approach, as many have suggested. I just think he wants skilled basketball players who can create mismatches out there, and that those types of players are easier to get when they're under 6" 10". But I have no doubt that if he had the players to roll out five long, skilled basketball players, he would do just that, and love every minute of it. Luckily, with the stockpiling of long, athletic basketball players lately, we may be able to do just that before too long.


When have I ever disagreed with this at all? But I do think there's a point of diminishing returns where getting just a little bit smaller to add one more jump shot isn't yielding enough to take away one more hand bothering shots at the rim, but that's a whole different discussion than this gibberrish about Maggette playing the 2 or the 3 freeing us up to put two big men on the floor? Do you see where the streams are getting crossed yet?

This "ripple effect" on the roster is hogwash. We've always had guys that Nellie is willing to use like that. It doesn't impact putting a more than one big on the floor or not.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#73 » by Chris Cohan » Fri Aug 1, 2008 11:11 pm

Nelson will always roll out Nellieball.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#74 » by Twinkie defense » Sat Aug 2, 2008 2:54 am

Sleepy, the preferred approach thing... I'm not hanging that on you per se. But there are some who believe Nellie prefers to go small.

And sure, he will always trot some weird, super small lineup out there from time to time - and how can you not, when you start fifteen different lineups during the course of the season?

On Maggette's ripple effect: if you don't see a Monta/Jackson/Maggette/Harrington/Biedrins lineup (note that Randolph, Hendrix, Turiaf aren't a part of the starters here) as a traditional lineup, one that in and of itself means less Baron/Monta/Jackson/Pietrus/Harrington and the like... well I suppose we agree to disagree :D
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#75 » by WarFan » Sat Aug 2, 2008 4:14 am

Twinkie defense wrote: means less Baron/Monta/Jackson/Pietrus/Harrington and the like

I don't see how Maggette's signing prevents Nellie from running out a WIlliams/Monta/Jackson/Maggette/Harrington lineup or a dozen other possibilities that only have one big-man.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#76 » by FNQ » Sat Aug 2, 2008 5:42 am

WarFan wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote: means less Baron/Monta/Jackson/Pietrus/Harrington and the like

I don't see how Maggette's signing prevents Nellie from running out a WIlliams/Monta/Jackson/Maggette/Harrington lineup or a dozen other possibilities that only have one big-man.


How long into the 08-09 season before Al logs 10+ minutes at C?

I'll start the bidding... 24 minutes into game 1.

Nelson's roster obviously "handcuffs" him from going extensively small... Apologists will try and turn that into "Nellie's learned, Nellie's adapted"... BS... he had 25 years to learn.

Nellie's a fighter though... he'll go down swinging. Buke may hit 20mpg at some point this season as a result... what a disaster :nonono:
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#77 » by migya » Sat Aug 2, 2008 9:11 am

Nelson's smallball will likely still be a frequent thing, more likely with the following lineup:
PG - MWilliams
SG - Monta
SF - SJackson
PF - Maggette
C - Harrington

I do think Turiaf is going to get alot of minutes, anywhere from 20 to 25 minutes a game for this season. The guy has energy, is strong and big built and defends very well. He'll likely be the backup PF and C, with BWright and the rest playing after him. Nelson will still go with an 8 man rotation, bit stupid with all the talent the team has but likely what he'll do.

Not as much smallball as last season, because of Nelson's likely frequent use of Turiaf
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#78 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Aug 2, 2008 1:22 pm

migya wrote:
Not as much smallball as last season, because of Nelson's likely frequent use of Turiaf


Someone gets it.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#79 » by Sleepy51 » Sat Aug 2, 2008 1:23 pm

WarFan wrote:
Twinkie defense wrote: means less Baron/Monta/Jackson/Pietrus/Harrington and the like

I don't see how Maggette's signing prevents Nellie from running out a WIlliams/Monta/Jackson/Maggette/Harrington lineup or a dozen other possibilities that only have one big-man.


Someone else gets it.
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Re: Opinions on current warriors roster 

Post#80 » by old rem » Sat Aug 2, 2008 5:37 pm

We will not have the Pietrus-Barnes-Croshere trio. Nellie took the "easy" route mostly going with known veterans as the bench...and they are gone,leaving Azu as his bench vet ( 1 1/2 NBA seasons) plus Turiaf+ Williams,with a couple years elsewhere. He pretty much has to look at Wright (at least) as a "usable", if just by default. Belli has been around. AR has a nice wide range of skills,Hendrix and Morrow,while rooks, have more college ball behind them than most of our roster,and both seem to have the basic stuff for their roles. Chances are we at least have a longer lineup on the floor. While Wright-Randolph are taller than Pietrus-Barnes,they still weigh less. Only Hendrix really has some beef or muscle to match the NBA wide bodies and history suggests Nellie may be reluctant to "spoil the purity" of his Nellieball crusade by actually having some power in the paint.

I like to think Nellie was looking at missing the playoffs and Mullin (finally) made a case for investing in the future....even the near future,like beyond December,while not conceding the inside game.

If Nellie wants a nice finish to his career....He wins by any means nessecery (not just smallball) and he builds this crew toward being a contender,which requires him to fast-track EVERY prospect-project and not look for any excuse to abandon and neglect talent that can be of value.

If you are a farmer you turn a bag of seed into a crop,you turn eggs into chickens,little cows into big cows. Thats how you make it. You don't just trade a chicken for a duck and forget to harvest your corn and think you deserve credit because you plowed such straight rows. You can't just skip a few chores,you can't ignore the details you find uninteresting,the livestock has to be fed and nurtured.
All the crops have to be tended,not just whatever is thriving. You make the best of EVERY asset.

How F*******g simple is that? People were doing it a millenium ago.

We DO have a roster that CAN make the playoffs. It's not Plug And Play. We don't have dead-end,dead-weight junk on the roster. We have a mix of some established quality and some undeveloped or untested quality. We need a pro-active approach,a crash program to make EVERY player on the team a game ready asset by midseason. If we again just go with half the roster and ignore and obstruct the rest...this is a franchise that's a lotto team treading water.

side note......got a hunch Morrow turns out to be a nice surprise. While Nellie has to be prodded to play a lotto pick,he's got a history of giving a shot to the unknowns and overachievers. In the Summerball games, Morrow stepped up, he had rebounds,assists and a nice FG % from everywhere. When you have limited minutes to show your stuff,versatile+efficient is what you want to bring.

Kosta is sort of the forgotten guy. None of us see a huge upside, but I'd settle for "pretty good".
Just before his late season return,Kosta had a couple of games in the D-league where he grabbed 17-18 rebounds. It's no more than a tip of the iceberg thing but it's a clue that he MIGHT have a skill we can polish into something of value. He's also 7-2 and his past history says he has decent hands and some shooter skills. If Kosta has just a couple of games where he looks pretty good,it can double his trade value even if we still don't see him as a keeper.
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