Baron was a "ball stopper"

[thetrueth]

remember at the start of the year Baron said he wanted to be an MVP caliber player in the mold of Nash and Kidd, and I remember he was "good" Baron for alot of the first half. Then as soon as he gets snubbed from the Allstar game, he goes all Bad Baron when he sees he's not getting any love/respect from the league.

[old rem]

his shot selection is a product of our style...nellies style.

In part , at least, that's the case. We had no high % Karl Malone getting fed in the paint. Biedrins getting a feed was more improv than game plan,and the typical format was push the pace and someone slashes or fires a 3. A lot of times Jax or Monta got the assist, a lot of times nobody did. Obviously Baron gets no Asst on his shots but Nellie wants 4-5 guys to be firing away

Shoot 20 3's and there's a possible 60 pt and 20 asst. You could get 60 pt shooting 30 2 pt shots...potential 30 assists. Worth note too, Baron was over 9 assts the year before. Over the last 2 years I'd guess the asst avg of Baron + Monta was about the same but the balance shifted.

It is not possible over the past 2 seasons to really seperate Baron + Nellie. Nellie built his tactics in Baron's ability to push tempo and Baron executed Nellies Run + Chuck game. Everything has a context.

[Sid the Squid]

Oh bullsh*t old man...Baron didnt have any better shot selection in New Orlean's.

[FNQ]

Then as soon as he gets snubbed from the Allstar game, he goes all Bad Baron when he sees he's not getting any love/respect from the league.

Ron Artest has the same respect / recognition problem... or at least thats one of the popular cons to Artest...

[nismolos]

all i know is that if this was game 7 of the NBA finals in the last 2 minutes, i'd want Baron handling the rock instead of monta. Guards need to be able to handle the rock naturally. Baron showed the first half of the year that he was definitely an all-star elite PG. Unfortunately, his attitude killed it during the second half.

[Sleepy51]

Then as soon as he gets snubbed from the Allstar game, he goes all Bad Baron when he sees he's not getting any love/respect from the league.

Ron Artest has the same respect / recognition problem... or at least thats one of the popular cons to Artest...

Maggette has the same respect / recognition problem, and that's why the coach of a perrennial cellar dwellar didn't want him and his 20ppg back the last two years.

Dunleavy and Baylor repeatedly put together deals to move Maggette as per the Dun's desires and repeatedly Sterling vetoed the deals, sending his errand boy Baylor back to the coach with hat in hand. The scuttled trades, and Dun's decision to start Quinton Ross ahead of the owner's box favorite (Defense over offense tradeoff, which begs the question: how bad does your D have to be for 22ppg not to be enough?) basically brought Dunleavy to his "take this job and shove it" moment last season when he told Sterling in no uncertain terms to replace him if the owner thought the coaching decisions were not consistent with a "win-now" directive. The drama was covered extensively in the LA press (or at least the portion of the LA press that gave a crap about the Clippers.) Folks here didn't like my characterization of Cohan giving "Marching Orders" to basketball personell in GS, but Sterling most certainly does so in Clipperland, and it's documented. Maggs contract offers came from the owner's box. Not from the coach.

[St.Nick]

Maggette was offered a contract last offseason by the Clippers.

Dunleavy has been making personnel decisions since delivering Sterling an ultimatum to either do what he wanted with the roster or eat the $17M still owed to Dunleavy. Knowing how cheap Sterling is, he chose option A. Doesn't mean that Dunleavy has any clue what he is doing.

In fact, since Dunleavy has been in charge he has let the franchise player leave for nothing, paid Baron a lot more than many felt comfortable paying him, lost Maggette for nothing, and signed underachievers Ricky Davis and Brian Skinner to help replace the two 20ppg guys he squandered. Although in all fairness, Camby for a second rounder was a good pickup.

Regardless, if you want to know why Brand bolted its because the team is in disarray. You can take Dunleavy as the ultimate master of player personnel or you can look at his record and wonder if he has a few screws loose.

[Sleepy51]

Yes, he was.

[St.Nick]

Indeed.

[tsherkin]

Some of this needs to be put in perspective:

Baron Davis has all the court vision and technical passing skill one could ever ask to find in a player; this much is evident and has been since he was drafted (and before, in college). The question is more about his playmaking instincts in terms of when to shoot and when to pass, whether he's a guy who looks to pass first or to shoot first... and the answer is shoot first. He's a better player than someone elike Stephon Marbury, of course, but Baron's need to be a dominant scorer as well as the primary ball handler and distributor is a critical flaw that has held him back and continues to do so.

Not counting his first two seasons, he's taken a hair over 17 shots a game on his career. Given his relative inefficiency as a scorer (or rather, as a result of his preoccupation with the three-point shot), this is an unfavorable state of affairs for any team with Baron; he's a better distributor than he is a scorer and would be better-suited to taking 12-15 shots a game, rather than 16+.

This has nothing to do with Nellie's system (which only encouraged tendencies on display well before he arrived in Golden State), nor the up-tempo nature of Golden State's offense. Baron took 20.9 shots a game one year for a comparatively slow-paced Hornets team. He has weak discipline when it comes to scoring and that's never going to change.

Regarding high-volume assist production, that comes from high-percentage involvement in certain kind of plays.

Magic and Worthy, Stockton and Malone, KJ and Barkley, Deron and Boozer, Paul and Chandler, Nash and Amare... there's always a second man in a pair that produces like that. When you produce at that level, it's because you are constantly on the ball and you have a mostly unstoppable play you repeat a lot throughout the course of a game, such as the high sidescreen the Jazz teams favor, and/or you've got a transition squad with a great finisher (Worthy, Malone, Barkley).

These things bespeak offensive coherence; Nelson runs a piddling 5-out system that's mostly isolation plays, not a really coherent and well-developed set like the Jazz's offense or anything that's really emphasized by a playmaker like Magic or Nash in their freewheeling transition systems (and again, they were/are pass-first, pass-second, shoot-third guys with a noteworthy finisher). It's prolific; a bit ugly, because it's mostly isos, but it works (I mean in the halfcourt; obviously, the transition game is awesome).

What it does not do is encourage high-volume output of assists from any single player. 7-8 apg from Baron is pretty fine in a situation like that, especially with a secondary passer like Ellis.

So while Baron has his various flaws, it's worth noting that his lack of high-volume production of assists is not JUST the result of his own predisposition towards shooting a lot (Chris Paul took 16 shots a game last year, remember), it's also about his team's offense and the lack of a really great finisher. Jax and Ellis and Biedrins and everyone, they're good players, but none of them is a super-efficient finisher on the break or in a pick-and-roll. Ellis is super-efficient, but didn't exhibit a high assisted-FGM percentage because he was mostly quietly creating little mid-ranged jumpers for himself.

[Mylie10]

Good points, But.......






Ellis is one of the best finishers in the NBA on the break. Baron on the break was not a problem at all. Biedrins had the best FG% in the NBA and although not a go to guy (yet) it would have added to Baron's assist totals if he looked for Beans even more.

The key would have been for Baron to shelve at least 3 of his outside shot selections and looked to hit Monta, Beans, or some other in an assisting type of play.

We're talking about a couple of more asists than he ended up with. The onus really is on Nellie though. He allowed the chucking.

Less chucks and more passes were definitely attainable with this squad. Just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it couldn't have.

[Sleepy51]

Mike Dunleavy's basketball credibility >>>>> Donald Sterling's.

[/end of interaction]

[St.Nick]

Effective personnel guy >>>>> Mike Dunleavy >>>>> Donald Sterling

[Sleepy51]

Some of this needs to be put in perspective:

Baron Davis has all the court vision and technical passing skill one could ever ask to find in a player; this much is evident and has been since he was drafted (and before, in college). The question is more about his playmaking instincts in terms of when to shoot and when to pass, whether he's a guy who looks to pass first or to shoot first... and the answer is shoot first.
. . .
So while Baron has his various flaws, it's worth noting that his lack of high-volume production of assists is not JUST the result of his own predisposition towards shooting a lot (Chris Paul took 16 shots a game last year, remember), it's also about his team's offense and the lack of a really great finisher. Jax and Ellis and Biedrins and everyone, they're good players, but none of them is a super-efficient finisher on the break or in a pick-and-roll. Ellis is super-efficient, but didn't exhibit a high assisted-FGM percentage because he was mostly quietly creating little mid-ranged jumpers for himself.

Tsherkin understands a little thing called "context." All good points and significant details. One of the overarching themes of GSW play for the last oh 10 years has been lots of standing around on the offensive end waiting for your turn to touch the ball. Jason and Dre are the only players we've had in a long time who worked dilligently without the ball to create assisted FG opportunities for themselves and thier passers. Baron likes his points, and Baron likes his big shots - to a fault. But his flaws were to some degree exacerbated by a lack of a disciplined offensive system that encouraged teammates to make themselves assist targets. A lot of the Bad Baron we saw over his years here occurred when the defense was allowed to lay off thier men and pack it in, taking away Baron's opportunity and ability to get defenders in motion and break down the D. Guys standing around waiting for perimeter touches instead of screening and cutting away from the ball is a big part of that dynamic. When's the last time you saw a Warrior player make more than one cut during an offensive possesion? Chris Paul would be punching his teammates in the nads for standing around like that. Kobe would be demanding people be traded. If Baron had their work ethic to go with his talent, maybe he would have gotten away with being that kind of d-bag too.

Part of Nellie's rationale (the part I actually liked) for the Webber experiment was to get the ball out of Baron's hands and to another passer (a smarter one than Jack) who would get the ball back to Baron IN MOTION. Nellie wanted to give Baron the opportunity to lead by example, get his butt in motion without the ball and encourage the other guys by showing them the way. Unfortunately, Nellie botched the Web thing by forcing him into the starting lineup and alienating Al, pissing off Dre and giving Baron the last straw needed to pretty much fold up shop psychologically. Baron never bought in, Webber hobbled back to his restaurant, the W's missed the playoffs and we got Randolph.

I love it when a plan comes together.

[tsherkin]

Baron likes his points, and Baron likes his big shots - to a fault.

I agree and acknowledged this.

But his flaws were to some degree exacerbated by a lack of a disciplined offensive system that encouraged teammates to make themselves assist targets.

Yeah, and I did make some note of this in my derisive comment about Nellie's 5-out system, but my counterpoint was that the same trends and traits that make Baron shot-happy and what-not in Golden State were true of his time on the Hornets, which their more conventional structured offense.

Yes, in a system with a decent coach, a sounder roster with good assist targets (that was more directed at the Hornets, of course), Baron might evidence a better playing style. Or rather, might have done.

It won't happen in L.A. and he's a vet now, mostly stuck in his ways... and in L.A., while he's got the targets, he doesn't have the coach. Dunleavy is not very good. Not bad, but nothing revolutionary as a coach in any capacity.

When's the last time you saw a Warrior player make more than one cut during an offensive possesion? Chris Paul would be punching his teammates in the nads for standing around like that. Kobe would be demanding people be traded. If Baron had their work ethic to go with his talent, maybe he would have gotten away with being that kind of d-bag too.

All of that is perfectly true.

Part of Nellie's rationale (the part I actually liked) for the Webber experiment was to get the ball out of Baron's hands and to another passer (a smarter one than Jack) who would get the ball back to Baron IN MOTION. Nellie wanted to give Baron the opportunity to lead by example, get his butt in motion without the ball and encourage the other guys by showing them the way. Unfortunately, Nellie botched the Web thing by forcing him into the starting lineup and alienating Al, pissing off Dre and giving Baron the last straw needed to pretty much fold up shop psychologically. Baron never bought in, Webber hobbled back to his restaurant, the W's missed the playoffs and we got Randolph.

Well, Randolph is positive, but I'd rather be wondering about Moncrief's potential as a HC going into the season than what the Hell Nellie is going to do this year.

Anyway, I see your point, and my Hornets counter is weak because they had lots of injuries and not a lot of secondary ball-handlers or shot creators.

Anyway, I wasn't attacking Baron, I was just trying to show both sides of the argument, which is why I talked about the absences of certain things that prevented his production of double-digit assists and Nellie's relatively useless system (in the context of double-digit assist production) as well as Baron's own negatives and drawbacks.

[Sleepy51]

Anyway, I wasn't attacking Baron, I was just trying to show both sides of the argument, which is why I talked about the absences of certain things that prevented his production of double-digit assists and Nellie's relatively useless system (in the context of double-digit assist production) as well as Baron's own negatives and drawbacks.

I agreed wholeheartedly with your post, as did Warrior management, which is why no one offerred him a contract extention. There were positives and negatives all over the equation, the combined result wasn't going to be championship material.

My biggest criticism of Baron over his time here was his reaction to adversity. When the chips are down, Baron says f it and jacks up a 30% shot. It's a passive aggressive attack on his coaches and teammates, and it's a critical flaw. It's not a "I'll put you guys on my back and carry us home" response. It's a "well if you guys aren't going to play better, then I'm not going to kill myself in the paint" response. It's a surrender, not leading the charge. It's why he's limited as a leader, and why moving on without him was inevitable and timely.

Go Randolph!

Monta responded to a number of adverse situations last season in the opposite way and it's why I have him pegged as a leader. In tough situations, Monta focused and worked harder, and led his teammates to pull themselves out of the funk.

[tsherkin]

My biggest criticism of Baron over his time here was his reaction to adversity. When the chips are down, Baron says f it and jacks up a 30% shot. It's a passive aggressive attack on his coaches and teammates, and it's a critical flaw. It's not a "I'll put you guys on my back and carry us home" response. It's a "well if you guys aren't going to play better, then I'm not going to kill myself in the paint" response. It's a surrender, not leading the charge. It's why he's limited as a leader, and why moving on without him was inevitable and timely.

I don't disagree even a little. I'd have talked about that more but this is the Golden State board and, former player or not, it's a bit bad form to come in here blasting and bad-mouthing a guy who was an important part of your best years in a long time. I don't personally think very highly of Baron Davis as a centerpiece for a team for various reasons but in this case, the poster to whom I initially responded was definitely wrong and I felt like explaining why.

Go Randolph!

He'll be interesting, yeah. He's not Bosh, he's not Magic, he's not really Odom or any of the other guys we've talked about, either. He's kind of like Durant without the range on his jumper.

Something no one here has really mentioned is that maybe an interesting comparison for him might be a 6'10 Grant Hill.

Good rebounder, not an especially prolific scorer save for one season in his career (his last in Detroit), very good passer (point forward, actually, though I'm hesitant to afford that kind of passing prowess to Randolph just yet), decent defender, incredible athlete...

That sort of sounds like what Lamar Odom should have been and if Randolph does reach his potential, it is sort of like 20/9/7 (though I'd think 18/7/5 might be more reasonable as a hope).

This is the wrong thread for that, so I'm going to broach that topic in the AR thread.

Monta responded to a number of adverse situations last season in the opposite way and it's why I have him pegged as a leader. In tough situations, Monta focused and worked harder, and led his teammates to pull themselves out of the funk.

Yeah, Monta is intriguing; I wasn't a believer in him after that first little breakout season but last year was a pretty notable eye-opener. If he responds in a similar fashion (or really, just maintains the numbers he posted last year) this upcoming season, it'll be very telling about his promise as a team leader. I'm excited to see what he does this year.

[a8bil]

Great thread!

[Chris Cohan]

How come we can only get agreement on how crappy Baron is when he's gone?

[Souvlaki]

How come we can only get agreement on how crappy Baron is when he's gone?

Too true. I don't even participate in the post trade Baron bashing. I got it all out of my system 3 years ago.