My take on the Ellis situation...

[Sleepy51]

I'm with Rowell ...Monta did not hurt himself on a moped..Come on people. Open your eye's..He got in a fight and tore up his ankle. Then he lied and said he did it while working out. Think about it.

It's got nothing to do with being on anyone's side. I'm on the basketball team's side. The basketball team gets nothing out of scolding Monta. Nothing.

If he was incorrigible then you walk away. Void him as a criminal and turn your back. Stern would have given us all the cap relief in the world no questions asked, and we could have righteously tanked for Griffin. But, if there was an interest in keeping, or getting value out of him this needed to be handled strategically, not emotionally.

Even if he tore up his ankle kicking Michael Vick's dogs, that still doesn't change the fact that no lecture out of Rowell/Cohan's mouth could have possibly added anything positive to the Warriors interest in this situation. It might feel superior and satisfying to lecture or yell or scream and give a tongue lashing, but it's totally counterproductive in most instances. Especially handling highly paid specialists in a talent field. Rowell/Cohan's emotional dissaproval means nothing to anyone except them.

Monta should have found out about his jaw dropping financial punishment in a letter read to him in Fried's office. That puts Fried on the hot seat to fix it from jump street. The only contact Monta should have had with Warrior people should have been with people who felt just as bad about his situation as he did. Everyone he ever had direct contact with on the Warriors needed deniability and the sympathetic high ground. De-personalize it and use everything at your disposal to turn the situation in your favor. Tantrums and ego flexing NEVER help situations like this.

The comeuppance factor does nothing to help the team win basketball games. Pro sports is the wrong place to be looking for that kind of justice, otherwise Kobe would be getting gang sodomized nightly in the booty house. Hooray! Someone yelled at Monta Ellis for being dumb. Congrats. Monta Ellis STILL has $57 million and will probably end up playing his best basketball somewhere else.

It's meaningless. Keep your eye on the ball.

[old rem]

I'm with Monta. The kid is a special talent . 99-83 is our record over the last 3 years with Monta in the rotation. TKawakami is an emotional wreck of a reporter. He's butthurt right now and trying to get even with Nellie.

You are right about Ellis. Due to several matters...the whole Monta PG has been delayed.

TK does what we are doing in this very thread...speculates,puts out an opinion or guess,reads between the lines. Monta is the same player he was...and he was IT around here. Now AR is the hot item.....later...he's last year's Christmas present and everyone is putting a new kid into the HOF before he's had one strong game.

I like that his stuff gives something to think about..to debate. If I want "just the facts" that's look at the game and read the box score...period. The TROUBLE with Kawakami is he's TOO MUCH like US.

[Sleepy51]

Sleepy's long post's usually go way over my head ..but there's a big difference between getting in a fight at outside a nightclub and injuring oneself in a moped accident..

It does not make a difference at all on the subject of how management should comport themselves to get the best result for their enterprise. The team issue is the lie, the contract and the basketball. The emotional crap is for the "DeNiro-in-The Fan" psychos..

[Subaculta]

I'm with Rowell ...Monta did not hurt himself on a moped..Come on people. Open your eye's..He got in a fight and tore up his ankle. Then he lied and said he did it while working out. Think about it.

It's got nothing to do with being on anyone's side. I'm on the basketball team's side. The basketball team gets nothing out of scolding Monta. Nothing.

If he was incorrigible then you walk away. Void him as a criminal and turn your back. Stern would have given us all the cap relief in the world no questions asked, and we could have righteously tanked for Griffin. But, if there was an interest in keeping, or getting value out of him this needed to be handled strategically, not emotionally.

Even if he tore up his ankle kicking Michael Vick's dogs, that still doesn't change the fact that no lecture out of Rowell/Cohan's mouth could have possibly added anything positive to the Warriors interest in this situation. It might feel superior and satisfying to lecture or yell or scream and give a tongue lashing, but it's totally counterproductive in most instances. Especially handling highly paid specialists in a talent field. Rowell/Cohan's emotional dissaproval means nothing to anyone except them.

Monta should have sound out about his jaw dropping financial punishment in a letter read to him in Fried's office. That puts Fried on the hot seat to fix it from jump street. The only contact Monta should have had with Warrior people should have been with people who felt just as bad about his situation as he did. Everyone he ever had direct contact with on the Warriors needed deniability and the sympathetic high ground. De-personalize it and use everything at your disposal to turn the situation in your favor. Tantrums and ego flexing NEVER help situations like this.

The comeuppance factor does nothing to help the team win basketball games. Pro sports is the wrong place to be looking for that kind of justice, otherwise Kobe would be getting gang sodomized nightly in the booty house. Hooray! Someone yelled at Monta Ellis for being dumb. Congrats. Monta Ellis STILL has $57 million and will probably end up playing his best basketball somewhere else.

It's meaningless. Keep your eye on the ball.

can we nominate you as some sort of ambassador or czar to the Warriors to help with "modern-day athlete-management relationship building"?

somehow I don't see Cohell, Nelson or Riley getting anything you just said.

[Sleepy51]

Sid,

The original fight rumor had him rushing into a crowd where his brother had been sucker punched and was being stomped on the ground. Then being dragged out and having his ankle "curbed" by a gang.

That is also of a different character than starting a brawl, or drunkenly wrecking a crotch rocket

None of it matters. The Warriors either needed to divorce themselves from a bad seed, or they needed to teach him the lesson in the only way that mattered (financially) and put a cork in the masturbatory lectures. Yelling at a Monta Ellis will not teach him anything except that you are a fool who can't keep their cool.

[Sleepy51]

can we nominate you as some sort of ambassador or czar to the Warriors to help with "modern-day athlete-management relationship building"?

somehow I don't see Cohell, Nelson or Riley getting anything you just said.

Nellie actually gets it. He just needs to stop drinking around the practice facility. His tongue gets loose. But he understands.

[FNQ]

If we are to 100% believe what Monta is saying about him only being butthurt about the scolding and not the money...

Then Rowell and Cohan really do need to learn about business... the bottom line is to get the guy to do what you want... scolding him like a child sent to the principal's office is not going to get a positive response. Ever.

The easy solution, or what I see as common sense is to guilt the hell out of Monta.

'Monta, we gave you 66 million this offseason, and you got hurt. It happens. But then you tried to lie about it to deny responsibility. It's hard for us to really get behind you as one of the faces of the franchise if we cannot trust you. But what's done is done and we need you to be ready to play as soon as possible. Get healthy and know you have our support. As of now we see it as an isolated and unlucky incident, and believe you will prove that we made a great investment in you. Prove us right.'

Simple stuff. Let him know he messed up, that he let the team down, and give him a goal to shoot for to make it up. You don't chew him out about something he already knows...

[FNQ]

As for the whole 'was it a moped or a fight?' question, it should be extremely obvious to the docs what happened. Wrecking on any kind of motorbike will give you some nasty abrasions that you wouldn't get in a fight. The W's do know the real truth. We won't, ever.

But I will say this, when I saw Monta in his 3rd or 4th game back, there was 0 visible damage to his legs from the 8th row or so... usually, even with good skin grafts, an injury of that magnitude will usually leave some permanent and visible scars... just throwing that out there.

[Sleepy51]

If we are to 100% believe what Monta is saying about him only being butthurt about the scolding and not the money...

Then Rowell and Cohan really do need to learn about business... the bottom line is to get the guy to do what you want... scolding him like a child sent to the principal's office is not going to get a positive response. Ever.

The easy solution, or what I see as common sense is to guilt the hell out of Monta.

'Monta, we gave you 66 million this offseason, and you got hurt. It happens. But then you tried to lie about it to deny responsibility. It's hard for us to really get behind you as one of the faces of the franchise if we cannot trust you. But what's done is done and we need you to be ready to play as soon as possible. Get healthy and know you have our support. As of now we see it as an isolated and unlucky incident, and believe you will prove that we made a great investment in you. Prove us right.'

Simple stuff. Let him know he messed up, that he let the team down, and give him a goal to shoot for to make it up. You don't chew him out about something he already knows...

You got it. This has nothing at all to do with what's right, or just or deserved. It has to do with what helps the W's.


Sid,
What exactly was the upside of reaming him up? Was a lecture supposed to change his future behavior? Do you really believe that the next time Monta's brother got jacked, Monta would stop to think about getting yelled at by Rowell?

What was the strategic objective of reaming him? (If all this did happen) And how was that objective realistic?

[Sleepy51]

As for the whole 'was it a moped or a fight?' question, it should be extremely obvious to the docs what happened. Wrecking on any kind of motorbike will give you some nasty abrasions that you wouldn't get in a fight. The W's do know the real truth. We won't, ever.

But I will say this, when I saw Monta in his 3rd or 4th game back, there was 0 visible damage to his legs from the 8th row or so... usually, even with good skin grafts, an injury of that magnitude will usually leave some permanent and visible scars... just throwing that out there.

Not trying to debate medicine with you (already made that mistake ) But if he did the polish kickstand thing, that doesn't take a lot of speed and does not really have to result in sliding on the ground much at all, does it?

[FNQ]

Not at all... I'm not 100% on what your asking, but sliding at 25 mph on anything but freshly paved asphalt is the equivalent to taking a cheese grater to your leg.

There are ways he could have fallen and not skid very far, but even then the damage done by abrasions would be noticeable for quite some time. And if I remember correctly, the report was that Monta fell off a scooter doing 25... its so long ago I forget, but I remember thinking at the time "If the situation really went down like they say it did, we should be able to tell by looking at his leg immediately."

And I couldnt see a damn thing... its not foolproof, but if I was betting, I'd bet on something other than a motorbike

EDIT: To clarify, I just do not see a legitimate way that Monta could have gotten the injury he did without skidding, if on a motorbike. You can absolutely fall and not skid, but that almost always results in a blunt force, centralized trauma (like a clean break of a leg or ankle) rather than the injury Monta suffered...

[Sleepy51]

Not at all... I'm not 100% on what your asking, but sliding at 25 mph on anything but freshly paved asphalt is the equivalent to taking a cheese grater to your leg.

There are ways he could have fallen and not skid very far, but even then the damage done by abrasions would be noticeable for quite some time. And if I remember correctly, the report was that Monta fell off a scooter doing 25... its so long ago I forget, but I remember thinking at the time "If the situation really went down like they say it did, we should be able to tell by looking at his leg immediately."

And I couldnt see a damn thing... its not foolproof, but if I was betting, I'd bet on something other than a motorbike

I'm thinking of when a rookie rider starts from a standstill but doesn't accelerate fast enough to get stable.They gets scared by the wobbly bike at low speed and put a foot down to stabilize themselves. The bike is heavier than a rookie rider thinks, and putting a foot out does nothing but gets your ankle twisted off. You don't even have to fall for it to happen. This can be at less than 10 mph for the weight of the bike to create massive torque on the foot . . . especially if it was bigger than a moped.

First time I got on a bike I did exactly this, but I got my foot off the ground just in time. I was told by the rider teaching me that it's a common was to create a massive injury at almost no speed and happens to a lot of morons.

[FNQ]

To get the kind of force to tear a ligament but not completely snap the ligament, or break any bones is roughly the same odds of Corey Maggette leading our team in assists... technically, its possible..

[Sleepy51]

Ok, I'm not arguing the medicine, but I think you're missing something on the physics.

You are underestimating how much weight factors into the amount of force generated, even at a low speed. If under accelleration? even more force. Bikes are heavy, especially if it was a street bike, not a moped. A 600cc is between 400-500 pounds. That's a massive force multiplier especially if you're talking about torsional forces around your leg as an axis. It does not take a lot of speed to generate a tremendous amount of force at that weight. I know that much from college physics.

[FNQ]

Monta's right handed... I dont know if you've rode a bike before, but usually you are more comfortable pulling with your strong hand than pushing with it.

So for the scenario to be really apt (and again, assuming it was at least 25 mph as was reported) Monta would have had to pull the handlebards in, causing a quick right turn on the bike, and plant his left foot. Then, the force would have had to been perfect enough to cause a non-complete tear of the deltoid ligament but not completely tear it or break the anklebone.

You are right about the physics, but remember that in these kinds of injuries that are frequent to motorcycle riders, the ankle rolls OUT, not in. Such an unnatural motion would cause massive damage to more than just the deltoid... also, the multiplier - the weight of the bike - would be somewhat nullified, because for the injury to be plausible, his ankle would be rolling out AWAY from the bike, and then the bike's weight would be to his advantage, as it would be pulling his leg up. And, if the force really was that much, it would likely reverberate up his leg as well, and at that point we'd be talking about Monta's fractured fibula (the very thin, long bone in the leg).

I can't say its impossible, but at the very least, its extremely unlikely - if all the 'facts' are correct - that Monta was on the moped.

[Sleepy51]

IIRC the publicized descriptions said "motorized scooter . . . low speed . . . under 25 mph" all terms chosen to minimize the imagery of Winslow doing wheelies at 40mph on a customized hayabusa. I don't think any of it was specific description of the accident, just establishing minimizing parameters.

I'm describing an injury that happens from a standstill as low as 5 or 10 MPH. It's weight and acceleration, not speed. I'm not talking about a fall or an impact injury. That's kind of the point. I'm saying if he wrapped a bike around his leg from a standstill, he didn't have to fall far or hard. The injury happened while the bike was still "upright." You've never heard of an idiot hitting the gas without getting their feet on the pegs?

[Sleepy51]

You are right about the physics, but remember that in these kinds of injuries that are frequent to motorcycle riders, the ankle rolls OUT, not in.

Ok, I call shenanigans. When you torched me on this debate before, your whole position was that this kind of injury common to motorcycle riders, not an athletic sprain. You beat me over the head arguing just the opposite of what you've said here. You said it was an UNCOMMON injury doing anything BUT biking.

[FNQ]

Even then you are looking at a perfect storm of unlikely events, and remember, a right handed person's natural reaction would be to pull the handlebars regardless of direction they are falling, which would do significant bone damage as well.

His injuries, as reported (torn deltoid, not complete) would suggest more of a blunt trauma to the ankle rather than being dragged. Its more likely IMO that the dummy pushed off his right foot to get on the bike without it even being on, and had it land on his ankle in a prone position, rather than starting the bike with his foot on the ground.

But its all speculation at this point... all I can say with certainty is that he likely wasn't riding a moped... but thats the thing about the medical field... you'll find yourself amazed at the new and creative (re: out-of-this-world unlikely) ways people mess themselves up. One of my first calls as a rep of AMR was an impalation. An idiot found a way to put a spoon through the palm of his hand. Ever tried to treat someone while laughing directly in their face? Its rough..

[Sleepy51]

You're the med expert, but it's pretty hard to imagine that blunt trauma would be LESS likely to be accompanied by fractures than a torsional injury.

But I' gonna stop here before you bust out your thesis on me.

Fight or Bike, reaming the little bugger was a stupid ego tripping move.

[FNQ]

You are right about the physics, but remember that in these kinds of injuries that are frequent to motorcycle riders, the ankle rolls OUT, not in.

Ok, I call shenanigans. When you torched me on this debate before, your whole position was that this kind of injury common to motorcycle riders, not an athletic sprain. You beat me over the head arguing just the opposite of what you've said here. You said it was an UNCOMMON injury doing anything BUT biking.

I think I'm being unclear here... theres a lot of info and I'm trying to whittle it down so its not a medical lecture...

An inverted ankle is a common injury for motorcycle injuries. When the first reports came out, and said Monta had a torn deltoid and ligament damage and unspecified injuries, my first thought was motorcycle accident. All of those injuries are common to bike injuries, but usually much more significant.

When more details came out (incomplete tear, minimal ligament damage, no bone damage - all derived from the initial recovery time of 6 weeks) I began to doubt that Monta was on a moped. Like I said, it seems more of the result of a blunt trauma than anything, especially now seeing that there is minimal cosmetic damage to the leg.