Jays release cather Phillips

[tsherkin]

I don't like this whole idea of being a "seller" because the Jays aren't at a point where they need to rebuild or retool. They have all the pieces they need, and there is no salary cap to worry about so they should keep what they have.

JP did come out and say today that he would like to keep the team as it is, and see them play a full season while healthy.

A full season while healthy and not dramatically underperforming at the plate would be nice, yes.

But we still lack a really good second starter; Chacin sucks and Burnett is not going to be healthy, I don't think (and even when he is, he's not a 15-game winner).

We need to upgrade our starting pitching (and for the love of God, we'd better not trade Marcum or McGowan) and we could use a better running game.

Being dead last and last in controlling runners and running the bases, the Jays need to upgrade their small-ball game so that we can contend even when our power game is off.

[RingItUp!]

[quote="tsherkin"][/quote]

There's an exceedingly slim chance that JP trades either Marcum or McGowan. It'd be career suicide.

Also, I'm not in favour of trading Glaus. We have no one to fill the massive 3B void he'd leave. In fact, I really don't think the Jays should be sellers at the deadline.

I believe Michael Bradley has already articulated this elsewhere, but this team doesn't have much TO trade. Of course we have some great players like Doc, Wells, Rios, Hill, Marcum, McGowan, BJ (when healthy). If we can drop AJ or Towers or Chacin (or Thomas.... ha!) to pick up a young pitching prospect and maybe an SS, I'd be all for it. I just don't see it happening.

This team is currently missing some speed and some depth. Our bench, aside from Stairs, isn't worth mentioning, and with Glaus, Thomas and Zaun in the lineup, we've got some serious leadfeet on the basepaths.

[Modern_epic]

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No, that's not actually true.

What is true is that he's definitely more commonly a DH than a catcher and that people generally think of him as such. He can, and in fact has, played that position before.

Josh Phelps has played 1 inning at catcher in the past 6 years. The Indians in 2004 used 3 guys as their starting catcher when resting their #1, all having two things in common: none of them were Josh Phelps, and none of them were any good. In 2005, the Devil Rays chose to use 4 other guys after their number one, among the Kevin Cash for 13 games. Do you remember him? He's not very good. And it's not like Phelps was starting at another position; he only played in 47 games for the rays, meaning he was free to catch in at least 17 of the games, probably more, played in by the likes of Tim Laker. This year the Yanks did use him there for that one inning, but played Wil Nieves ahead of him. The Phillies have yet to use him at catcher, though in this case I will admit that both of the guys ahead of him are having better years at the plate than him. The point is that you can claim he doesn't catch because nobody realizes he's a catcher, but I'm pretty darned sure it's just because he's no good at it.

[OldNo7]

Exactly. They have better scouts, better knowledge, and I am sure the coaching staff has given it looks in practices and so on.

[tsherkin]

Been busy lately, not ignoring this thread...

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Josh Phelps has played 1 inning at catcher in the past 6 years. The Indians in 2004 used 3 guys as their starting catcher when resting their #1, all having two things in common: none of them were Josh Phelps, and none of them were any good. In 2005, the Devil Rays chose to use 4 other guys after their number one, among the Kevin Cash for 13 games. Do you remember him? He's not very good. And it's not like Phelps was starting at another position; he only played in 47 games for the rays, meaning he was free to catch in at least 17 of the games, probably more, played in by the likes of Tim Laker. This year the Yanks did use him there for that one inning, but played Wil Nieves ahead of him. The Phillies have yet to use him at catcher, though in this case I will admit that both of the guys ahead of him are having better years at the plate than him. The point is that you can claim he doesn't catch because nobody realizes he's a catcher, but I'm pretty darned sure it's just because he's no good at it.

Yeah, he hasn't played catcher in the majors, he's been primarily a designated hitter. That doesn't mean he's not able to be a catcher.

Again, it's important to realize that I'm not talking about him platooning as a significant rotation player, I'm talking about carrying a player cheaply on your roster who is a good bat that you can use late in games for pinch hitting or for days off and so forth.

[Michael Bradley]

Yeah, he hasn't played catcher in the majors, he's been primarily a designated hitter. That doesn't mean he's not able to be a catcher.

Should the Mets start playing Delgado at catcher? No team has played him there in 13 years, but that doesn't mean he's not able to be a catcher, right?

[tsherkin]

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Should the Mets start playing Delgado at catcher? No team has played him there in 13 years, but that doesn't mean he's not able to be a catcher, right?

That's an outright stupid example in light of what I'm talking about.

Delgado is a STARTER and Lo Duca, I'm talking about using Phelps as a guy off the bench who can pinch for the catcher or pick him up as his replacement on rest days and so forth.

[Modern_epic]

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That's an outright stupid example in light of what I'm talking about.

Delgado is a STARTER and Lo Duca, I'm talking about using Phelps as a guy off the bench who can pinch for the catcher or pick him up as his replacement on rest days and so forth.

You seem to be missing the point here: teams aren't stupid. If he could do that, one of them would have done it at some point. You don't think, at some point, one manager forced with starting Ken Huckabee would have looked into Phillips past and realized he used to be a catcher and tried him out there for a bit in practice? I really doubt that. And since no one has used Phillips, it probably means he can't play the position at a major league level. The fact that he played it in the minors doesn't mean he can in the majors.

[Michael Bradley]

-= original quote snipped =-That's an outright stupid example in light of what I'm talking about.

Delgado is a STARTER and Lo Duca, I'm talking about using Phelps as a guy off the bench who can pinch for the catcher or pick him up as his replacement on rest days and so forth.

No you're not.

You're suggesting Phelps is a catching option, and refuse to trust the judgment of numerous teams who wanted no part of Phelps in a catching role. Just because Phelps was a catcher six years ago, and hasn't played there since, you seem to have the strange idea that it's because he hasn't been given a chance to. That's false.

My Delgado example was to illustrate how asinine your point is about Phelps being able to catch just because he did so in the past. Delgado was catcher in the past as well. He stunk, but he caught. Do you want to acquire Catalanotto to play 2B, by chance?

[OldNo7]

tsherkin - we are trying to say: dont you think of all the teams he has been on, some coaches, agents, scouts, etc have tried to see if he could do that? They all know more than we do. I am sure that if he was at all able, SOMEONE out of all the teams he has been on, would have given it a shot.

[tsherkin]

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You seem to be missing the point here: teams aren't stupid. If he could do that, one of them would have done it at some point. You don't think, at some point, one manager forced with starting Ken Huckabee would have looked into Phillips past and realized he used to be a catcher and tried him out there for a bit in practice? I really doubt that. And since no one has used Phillips, it probably means he can't play the position at a major league level. The fact that he played it in the minors doesn't mean he can in the majors.

I would debate your first point, rather vehemently at that. I've seen many moves across many different sports that are variously ignorant, uninformed or blatantly (Please Use More Appropriate Word).

I give you the example of Kevin McHale in basketball (not relating to the Boston deal) as one.

Or Doc Rivers, if you're looking for a coaching example.

Or Hell, look at OUR team...

John Gibbons is an idiot; you think if it was left up to him, he'd find the best way to take advantage of the resources on his team?

Granted, Phelps has played for some teams that don't have brick-dumb coaches. But most of those teams haven't desperately needed an extra bat. His stop in Cleveland wasn't marked by the need for a bat, nor were his stops in New York or Tampa; well, Tampa, maybe but they had more pitching problems than hitting problems when he was there.

tsherkin - we are trying to say: dont you think of all the teams he has been on, some coaches, agents, scouts, etc have tried to see if he could do that? They all know more than we do. I am sure that if he was at all able, SOMEONE out of all the teams he has been on, would have given it a shot.

No. He hasn't been on THAT many teams and most of them haven't had the kind of needs that would make a manager make such a roster move.

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No you're not.

You're suggesting Phelps is a catching option, and refuse to trust the judgment of numerous teams who wanted no part of Phelps in a catching role. Just because Phelps was a catcher six years ago, and hasn't played there since, you seem to have the strange idea that it's because he hasn't been given a chance to. That's false.

And you keep implying that I'm saying Phelps should be a regular catcher when I'm talking about using him on some off-days and as a pinch hitter...

The judgement of teams who didn't use him in a catching role is irrelevant; Phelps has played for the following teams:

Toronto, Cleveland, Tampa, Yankees and Pittsburgh.

Of those teams, we didn't have a desperate need for a catcher. We SHOULD have kept him for his bat, especially since we got nothing in return.

My Delgado example was to illustrate how asinine your point is about Phelps being able to catch just because he did so in the past. Delgado was catcher in the past as well. He stunk, but he caught. Do you want to acquire Catalanotto to play 2B, by chance?

Hyperbole is useless in this context; Delgado was a useful bat and we found a spot for him. Delgado wasn't a particularly good first baseman but he was a phenomenal hitter and we had Zaun to catch for us when we moved Phelps.

And in Delgado's case, since he wasn't particularly good at either position, if it came down to choosing between retaining his bat and trading him because he wasn't a great catcher, I'd keep him behind the plate and work him as the DH.

We didn't have a DH when we traded him, so that would have been a simple move. He did, in fact, DH for us, as we're all aware, and he wasn't awful at it. Frank's obviously way better but again, he wasn't around.

We're talking about a bat off the bench; that's something that, especially Toronto, could use. Our offense has been slumping and inconsistent all year and he's a decent hitter.

[OldNo7]

I guess tsherkin will have to agree to disagree with everyone else on the planet

[Modern_epic]

As far as I have seens no one is saying we shouldn't have kept Phelps to use as a pinch hitter and DH. We are saying you don't want him catching. A bad defence/good offence catcher can lose you the game in so many ways from behind the plate that they more than offset the rare occasion they win it in front; that's why teams accept catchers like Kevin Cash as their back-ups instead of guys like Josh Phelps. I don't know if it's because he can't call a game, or because he can't throw runners out, or because he can't keep the ball in front of him, but if two teams over one and a half seasons choose to use 9 other catchers than him after the Jays don't play him there for two and a half seasons, the odds are Josh Phelps is just really bad at one of those. But we are just going in circles here.

[tsherkin]

Life has a way of interfering with my RealGM time, damnit... lol

As far as I have seens no one is saying we shouldn't have kept Phelps to use as a pinch hitter and DH. We are saying you don't want him catching. A bad defence/good offence catcher can lose you the game in so many ways from behind the plate that they more than offset the rare occasion they win it in front; that's why teams accept catchers like Kevin Cash as their back-ups instead of guys like Josh Phelps. I don't know if it's because he can't call a game, or because he can't throw runners out, or because he can't keep the ball in front of him, but if two teams over one and a half seasons choose to use 9 other catchers than him after the Jays don't play him there for two and a half seasons, the odds are Josh Phelps is just really bad at one of those. But we are just going in circles here.

Well, if we're worried about throwing runners out, then we're just stupid; the Jays are, last I checked, bottom two in stealing bases and stopping stolen bases, so that'd just be status quo.

As far as catching goes, it's moot now because we have Thigpen and I wouldn't want to replace Thigpen. But at the time of the trade, we got precisely nothing for him and this season we've had hitting troubles, it wouldn't have hurt to have him around.

We traded him for a pitcher we cut; if he were still around, he could pinch hit for us and it'd be good. Take Zaun out in like the 7th or 8th inning, bring Phelps in... assuming Zaun isn't hitting well, of course.

With Phelps, it's not so much his fielding at catcher. He's only played 9 games as a catcher in the majors, true, but his fielding percentage was 1.000 in the 8 games he played with Toronto and he didn't have an opportunity in New York. His range factor was low but as a catcher, you don't get a great many opportunities for put-outs.

He's not particularly good at calling the game and he's not especially good at throwing runners out; that makes him a fairly unappealing presence as a catcher in general. This, I do not dispute.

All I was saying is that we could use him as a pinch hitter and he's not awful behind the plate if he's only there in short stints. It was overzealous to suggest that he fill in for whole games while we give Zaun a rest, sure, but we lost him for nothing and he's still a decent hitter.

[The_Hater]

Geez, Josh Phelps at catcher? Tyler, you're argument had too many holes to count from the start. Give it a rest already.

As several people have tried to point out to you, if playing Phelps at catcher for his offense, part-time or not, was even a possibility, why haven't any major league teams tried that these past 5 years? Could it be that he's not a catcher? Perhaps he can't frame a pitch? Can't throw anybody out on the bases? Can't block balls in the dirt very well? Can't call a good game for his staff? But hey, he didn't make any errors in his 9 games there so he must be pretty good, right? Please. Catcher is the most important defensive position on the field and that's why you rarely see offensive studs at the position. Your entire argument is just making you look foolish.


But just to make a point about Curtis Thigpen, I'm not sure what to think about his future? He didn't exactly hit at a high level in AA and AAA so he better be great defensively if he's actually going to be our future at the position. But I haven't read anything to indicate that, perhaps I'm wrong?

I still think that the Jays need to find somebody to start for the next few seasons. Zaun can back-up in 2008 and then Thigpen might be the back-up in 2009 and beyond.

[The_Hater]

Ohh the irony of ironies, look who's starting at Catcher, his first MLB start since 2001, in the back-end of a double-header tonight?

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/boxscore?gid=270813323

Of course the leadoff batter for the Giants, Rajai Davis, singled to start the game and promptly stole both second AND third base off of Phelps.
.

[tsherkin]

Geez, Josh Phelps at catcher? Tyler, you're argument had too many holes to count from the start. Give it a rest already.

As several people have tried to point out to you, if playing Phelps at catcher for his offense, part-time or not, was even a possibility, why haven't any major league teams tried that these past 5 years? Could it be that he's not a catcher? Perhaps he can't frame a pitch? Can't throw anybody out on the bases? Can't block balls in the dirt very well? Can't call a good game for his staff? But hey, he didn't make any errors in his 9 games there so he must be pretty good, right? Please. Catcher is the most important defensive position on the field and that's why you rarely see offensive studs at the position. Your entire argument is just making you look foolish.

No it's not, people are over-harping on me because they don't understand the full reference of my point, which centers around the fact that we should have kept him if all we were going to get is crap and that there were ways to use him.

He's been sticking in the league on account of his bat.

Yes, he's a weak defender but my point again is this:

Gregg Zaun is one of the worst I've ever seen at picking off base-runners. You'll reference calling the game and in that regard, I concede because Zaun is way better at that but for a few innings here and there as a pinch hitter to boost our inconsistent offense? I disagree that it would hurt more than help.

But just to make a point about Curtis Thigpen, I'm not sure what to think about his future? He didn't exactly hit at a high level in AA and AAA so he better be great defensively if he's actually going to be our future at the position. But I haven't read anything to indicate that, perhaps I'm wrong?

I don't know anything at all about his minor league career but, having watched him play this season, I've been pleasantly surprised. He's hitting reasonably well for a rookie, he's drawing about a walk every 5 games...

He's got no power and he's not big extra bases or anything but he's competent enough as a hitter than I was rudely shocked when Gibbons subbed in ZAUN last night.

That was a Gibbons special; Zaun's hitting maybe .260 and is cold from doing nothing all game; Thigpen drove in the Jays' first run and was hitting well, catching well (made a bad throw to second on a SB attempt but he's better than Zaun and it was a bad pitch to throw someone out)...

I don't mind Thigpen.

I consider him a lot more useful at catcher than Phelps, for relevance to this thread.

I still think that the Jays need to find somebody to start for the next few seasons. Zaun can back-up in 2008 and then Thigpen might be the back-up in 2009 and beyond.

Well, we need to see how he develops but he's hitting about .280 right now... as a rookie (in an incredibly small sample size of 54 at-bats, I know). With some more experience and some major league coaching, he could be a quality .290, .300 hitter for us...

Or he could stick at .280 and still be better than Zaun at rounding out our end-of-the-lineup bats.