Don't throw Martz under the bus/Our next OC?

organix85 · Post #1 » by **organix85** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:51 pm

It is pretty annoying that people seem to throw Martz under the bus whenever we do bad. I'm not a huge Martz fan, but c'mon now. There were a lot of things that weren't in our favor. Martz would've needed a flawless game plan to make up for the way Hanie played (not trying to imply that it is entirely his fault). Forte was very pedestrian minus one carry. The defense needed more turnovers. The return game didn't get it done. A lot of people didn't do enough to win this game. Not to mention, we were on the road in Oakland. To single out an individual is ridiculous...

I think the part that really pisses me off about this is that people seem to think that dumping Martz would fix the Bears... as if there is an abundance of great offensive minds waiting to take this job. Not to mention, that would be yet another offense these guys have to learn in a short time. The problems go much higher than him and I'd be absolutely pissed off if we had a bad season and the only change was Martz. People act like we need to baby Hanie cause he's inexperienced... then why the hell is he our backup? He's been here 3 years and we all knew it was a strong possibility that Jay would go down given the amount of times Jay gets hit. If 3 years as a backup means you are a piece of garbage that can't be trusted to make a screen pass, maybe you aren't a quality backup.

Post #2 » by **emperorjones** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:32 pm

organix85 wrote:
I think the part that really pisses me off about this is that people seem to think that dumping Martz would fix the Bears... as if there is an abundance of great offensive minds waiting to take this job. Not to mention, that would be yet another offense these guys have to learn in a short time.

I think Tice is in line to be the new OC. He had an opportunity to go to the Titans as their OC over the summer and Lovie blocked it because he was under contract. That was a really unusual move in the NFL (to deny a guy a promotion) and particularly for Lovie, as he generally promotes his assistant coaches. They gave him a raise and an extra year, but I think the reality is that the only way that happens is if he's in line for the OC job here. I don't see Martz back here next year. Even if JA and Lovie want him back, I think he leaves.

organix85 · Post #3 » by **organix85** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:02 pm

emperorjones wrote:
organix85 wrote:
I think the part that really pisses me off about this is that people seem to think that dumping Martz would fix the Bears... as if there is an abundance of great offensive minds waiting to take this job. Not to mention, that would be yet another offense these guys have to learn in a short time.

I think Tice is in line to be the new OC. He had an opportunity to go to the Titans as their OC over the summer and Lovie blocked it because he was under contract. That was a really unusual move in the NFL (to deny a guy a promotion) and particularly for Lovie, as he generally promotes his assistant coaches. They gave him a raise and an extra year, but I think the reality is that the only way that happens is if he's in line for the OC job here. I don't see Martz back here next year. Even if JA and Lovie want him back, I think he leaves.

I guess if that's the way it plays out (or was intended to play out), there isn't much that can be done. I don't think that makes us better though. Tice already has his hands full polishing that turd we call an offensive line. My point really though is that firing Martz won't win us a Super Bowl and I have a hard time thinking we become a better team. There are bigger issues to address.

PippenAintEasy · Post #4 » by **PippenAintEasy** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:50 pm

I don't think Cutler attempted more than 32 passes a game during the win streak. Hanie's first QB start and what does Martz do? 36 attempts with the game completely in reach. We have two awesome running backs that were averaging over 5 YPC for the game. Our defense was bending but not breaking and keeping the game completely within our grasp. That guy has to go.

SportsWorld · Post #5 » by **SportsWorld** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:13 pm

Mike Tice will be our offensive coordinator next year. He was going to take a job with the Titans this offseason but Lovie kept him.

organix85 · Post #6 » by **organix85** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:38 pm

PippenAintEasy wrote:I don't think Cutler attempted more than 32 passes a game during the win streak. Hanie's first QB start and what does Martz do? 36 attempts with the game completely in reach. We have two awesome running backs that were averaging over 5 YPC for the game. Our defense was bending but not breaking and keeping the game completely within our grasp. That guy has to go.

I think every one of those games, the Bears ran the ball most of the 4th cause they were ahead.

WEFFPIM · Post #7 » by **WEFFPIM** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:41 pm

We found the one defender of Mike Martz from yesterday.

You cannot throw the ball 36 times when your QB has shown you no reason to trust him that many times.

organix85 · Post #8 » by **organix85** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:55 pm

I don't like the notion that Hanie should be treated like a baby just because he hasn't played so much. He's had plenty of time to learn the NFL game. He's had more time than a lot of guys who have done better than him. Almost every year, you have some young inexperienced guy come in and get it done. If you want to say he sucks and Martz should tone it back cause his QB has no talent, that is a whole new story. But let's not pretend Martz is doing something unfathomable. I mean... people are flipping out cause he was asked to throw a screen pass. Heaven forbid... it might have been the first he's thrown ever. Hanie is a professional. Time to earn his pay.

Also, everyone knew there was a possibility Jay would get hurt this year given the beating he's been taking. I blame the front office for not getting a QB they trust unless their plan was to run a high school offense in Jay's absence. Or you can blame the coaching for not getting him more game experience in the previous games/years? Whatever the case, I expect him to perform well enough when called to do so when he's the primary backup.

At the end of the day, we almost beat a playoff team in our backup QBs first start in the NFL... on the road. Bears fans act like the sky is falling. Bumps were to be expected. Sometimes it seems that fans think we are a OC firing away from being one of the greatest teams ever. This cry has been heard for as long as I can remember.

organix85 · Post #9 » by **organix85** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:57 pm

WEFFPIM wrote:We found the one defender of Mike Martz from yesterday.

You cannot throw the ball 36 times when your QB has shown you no reason to trust him that many times.

So how many times do you throw the ball?

Post #10 » by **emperorjones** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 7:47 pm

WEFFPIM wrote:We found the one defender of Mike Martz from yesterday.

You cannot throw the ball 36 times when your QB has shown you no reason to trust him that many times.

Two- although I'm not a defender of the trick plays, I don't have an issue with 36 pass attempts- particularly since we were trailing in the 4th qtr with time running down.

organix85 · Post #11 » by **organix85** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:03 pm

emperorjones wrote:Two- although I'm not a defender of the trick plays, I don't have an issue with 36 pass attempts- particularly since we were trailing in the 4th qtr with time running down.

I agree with the trick plays. In particular, the wildcat plays need to be burned and never talked about again. Another play I really hate is the quick screen to Hester (not really a "trick" play). Though, this hasn't been used lately as Hester is not really on the field offensively. But that play was worthless and always seemed forced.

SportsWorld wrote:The run game wasn't really working either. Marion Barber was really good, was running with head of steam, but Forte was awful and had no room to run since Oakland was expecting it. Not saying Martz was good but he was better then people are saying. Hanie was just that awful.

The one critique I would have of Martz is that I think there should have been some more runs (probably with Barber). With that being said, Forte definitely was horrible outside of one good run. I'm growing more and more concerned that he's burned out.

The Explorer · Post #12 » by **The Explorer** » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:20 pm

I didn't have a big problem with Martz yesterday, other than the tight end screen that led an interception. The Bears organization has a lot of confidence in Hanie, going back to when he was a rookie. He's shown he can do some things like throw well on the move, and throw a decent deep ball. I understand why Martz didn't dumb it down for him. The problem i see is that Hanie is too slow to make his reads. He holds on the ball far far too long. The o line was giving him all day to throw, and he just didn't pull the trigger in time. In the 4th quarter, he had Roy Williams wide open, but threw it about 3 seconds too late, which led to an incompletion on 3rd down I believe. He needs get that internal clock in his head ticking faster.

BIGGIEsmalls 23 · Post #13 » by **BIGGIEsmalls 23** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:36 am

My gripe with Martz's handling of Hanie has less to do with Hanie's age, but more with the fact that he needed time to knock off the rust. The guy needed, at least, a game under his belt before he was ready for Martz's air show. Martz came out firing passes instead of establishing the run. I understand that the Raiders were probably expecting run, but that's why we have an O-line, FB, & TEs. Our run game eventually was allowed to be productive, but not in the beginning of the game when it could have helped set up the pass. IMHO, it seems that Martz had a gameplan in place for Oakland already before Cutler's injury & his stubbornness wouldn't allow him to adjust it for a young rusty QB.

Post #14 » by **emperorjones** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:39 am

BIGGIEsmalls 23 wrote:IMHO, it seems that Martz had a gameplan in place for Oakland already before Cutler's injury & his stubbornness wouldn't allow him to adjust it for a young rusty QB.

Exactly this.

jl342323 · Post #15 » by **jl342323** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:48 am

emperorjones wrote:
BIGGIEsmalls 23 wrote:IMHO, it seems that Martz had a gameplan in place for Oakland already before Cutler's injury & his stubbornness wouldn't allow him to adjust it for a young rusty QB.

Exactly this.

no lol. you cant do that in nfl. come on man. this is delusional

Post #16 » by **emperorjones** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:14 am

What was different in Martz play calling that leads you to believe he changed it up for Hanie vs what he would have had in place for Cutler?

jl342323 · Post #17 » by **jl342323** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 6:28 am

my point is you dont game plan for a game a week in advance.

there's a lot of details that goes on in the preparation week that we dont know about. there is no way martz prepared the gameplan for cutler then didnt make any changes for hanie.

you provide me a game tape the throws that hanie got in the beginning were easy throws

Post #18 » by **emperorjones** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:12 pm

jl342323 wrote:
you provide me a game tape the throws that hanie got in the beginning were easy throws

Where do you normally have your game tape delivered? :lol:

Not even sure what you mean. Hanie was checking down early. I think Biggie and I (if I can speak for him) mean he didn't adjust his plan at all to account for different personnel. He went into that game with the same GP he would have had with Cutler at QB. Martz has a certain attack plan and I don't think he considered Hanie was his QB when putting that together.

WEFFPIM · Post #19 » by **WEFFPIM** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:57 pm

emperorjones wrote:What was different in Martz play calling that leads you to believe he changed it up for Hanie vs what he would have had in place for Cutler?

It's amazing that it took weeks for Martz to recognize the talent he had in front of him and alter his style in two seasons so far, yet when a quarterback with a different skill set steps in, he doesn't change his plan at all. It's always been the criticism of Mike Martz, failing to see what's in front of him, and it happened in Oakland.

Chewie · Post #20 » by **Chewie** » Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:05 pm

organix85 wrote:It is pretty annoying that people seem to throw Martz under the bus whenever we do bad. I'm not a huge Martz fan, but c'mon now. There were a lot of things that weren't in our favor. Martz would've needed a flawless game plan to make up for the way Hanie played (not trying to imply that it is entirely his fault). Forte was very pedestrian minus one carry. The defense needed more turnovers. The return game didn't get it done. A lot of people didn't do enough to win this game. Not to mention, we were on the road in Oakland. To single out an individual is ridiculous...

I think the part that really pisses me off about this is that people seem to think that dumping Martz would fix the Bears... as if there is an abundance of great offensive minds waiting to take this job. Not to mention, that would be yet another offense these guys have to learn in a short time. The problems go much higher than him and I'd be absolutely pissed off if we had a bad season and the only change was Martz. People act like we need to baby Hanie cause he's inexperienced... then why the hell is he our backup? He's been here 3 years and we all knew it was a strong possibility that Jay would go down given the amount of times Jay gets hit. If 3 years as a backup means you are a piece of garbage that can't be trusted to make a screen pass, maybe you aren't a quality backup.

I'm kind of stuck on this one.

On the one hand, I don't want Cutler to start over with another OC. There IS something to be said for continuity. It's also easy to look at this roster and see the pieces aren't there for Martz's system to succeed. The o-line has only gelled of late and Cutler was running for his life prior to that. On top of that, we have to have the worst WR corps in the NFL. Dane frigging Sanzenbacher was our best WR in the early going for God's sake. Knox continues to drop the ball and has yet to fight for one when in tight coverage. Roy Williams has been below average at best and Hester has shown he's a 3rd/4th WR (what we all knew all along). Only Bennett looks like he truly belongs and he's still probably not starter material. I said it before - there are teams like the Steelers (Wallace, Brown, Sanders, Ward, Cotchery) that have five - FIVE!!! - WRs that are better than our best guy. How can any OC succeed when he's dealt a hand like that ??

On the OTHER hand, Martz's system isn't "Bears football" to me. I was just besides myself in that Raiders game when Barber was just cutting through the defense and then Martz abandoned the run and went heavy pass. Maybe he was looking to catch them off guard but esp when you've got Hanie in there, you should just roll with what's working until the defense shows they can stop it. Don't over-think it. And the throwback screen call was just terrible. Should Hanie have thrown it ? Of course not - it was an awful throw. Should Martz have called it in the first place? Hellz no. Keep it simple, stupid.

I want a TE that's more involved in the passing scheme. I want a fullback that's more involved in the game plan. I want our QB to have the freedom to audible given the defensive look he's given. I WANT BEARS FOOTBALL.

I sense that once again, though, the Bears will play just well enough to merit not blowing up the staff. Losing Cutler is almost a built in excuse to keep things as-is.