Image Image Image Image

O-Line Discussion

Moderator: chitownsports4ever

User avatar
Friend_Of_Haley
RealGM
Posts: 10,139
And1: 374
Joined: Aug 16, 2003
Location: Locked Out

O-Line Discussion 

Post#1 » by Friend_Of_Haley » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:40 pm

The OL is bad, but there have been offenses that overcame poor OL play with standout skill players. As you say, Cutler alone was able to avoid sacks. Give him some star players to help with the effort, and collectively, along with creative play calling, we'll try and minimize it.

It just kind of is what it is. Hopefully we can adress the line next off season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
User avatar
Magilla_Gorilla
RealGM
Posts: 32,055
And1: 4,458
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: Sunday Morning coming down...
         

Re: Bears Draft Grade 

Post#2 » by Magilla_Gorilla » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:17 pm

Friend_Of_Haley wrote:The OL is bad, but there have been offenses that overcame poor OL play with standout skill players. As you say, Cutler alone was able to avoid sacks. Give him some star players to help with the effort, and collectively, along with creative play calling, we'll try and minimize it.

It just kind of is what it is. Hopefully we can adress the line next off season.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Its not even just Cutler and some added play-makers. The schematic shift from Martz to Tice is huge. I don't expect to ever see Tice to call a play/protection where the LT is out on an island against a top pass rusher during a 7 step drop. Tice is going to use the TE and the RB liberally in pass protection. He's not going to leave these guys out on an island.

Tice and Lovie have staked their professional reputations and their career here in Chicago on this OL improving/playing better than we saw at the end of last year. Martz and Caleb Hanie really torpedoed this group at the end of last year. By halfway through the season our OL was average - after Jay went down and Martz went back to his old ways they became a bad group again.

Hopefully Carimi comes back healthy, C Williams can stay healthy, and this line can get some good work together in training camp.
Sham - Y U NO sell me a t-shirt? Best OB/GYN Houston
User avatar
DJhitek
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 19,778
And1: 1,354
Joined: Jul 12, 2004
Location: Berto Center
       

Re: Bears Draft Grade 

Post#3 » by DJhitek » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:35 pm

I was just going to add that Magilla, Martz never adjusted the offense to the personnel and it drove me insane.
Cliff Levingston
RealGM
Posts: 22,667
And1: 1,094
Joined: May 29, 2003
Location: Cliff Levingston is omnipresent.
       

Re: Bears Draft Grade 

Post#4 » by Cliff Levingston » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:54 pm

Magilla_Gorilla wrote:Its not even just Cutler and some added play-makers. The schematic shift from Martz to Tice is huge. I don't expect to ever see Tice to call a play/protection where the LT is out on an island against a top pass rusher during a 7 step drop. Tice is going to use the TE and the RB liberally in pass protection. He's not going to leave these guys out on an island.

Tice and Lovie have staked their professional reputations and their career here in Chicago on this OL improving/playing better than we saw at the end of last year. Martz and Caleb Hanie really torpedoed this group at the end of last year. By halfway through the season our OL was average - after Jay went down and Martz went back to his old ways they became a bad group again.

Hopefully Carimi comes back healthy, C Williams can stay healthy, and this line can get some good work together in training camp.

The truth will fall somewhere in the middle. While a scheme change can help, it's not a panacea. Either these guys can block or they can't, it's about as simple as that.

What Cliff Levingston is banking on (for hope's sake alone) is that the coaching staff will get a full summer with these guys, unlike last year. Webb was a 7th round project who was thrust into the starting lineup as a rookie and he was taken as a project. ICLO, they never wanted to put him in there. He was good enough (Cliff Levingston guesses) to get a further look but the lockout basically took all the time away from the coaching staff to work with him.

Listening to Tom Thayer talk about him, he says Webb's problems are all mental; just simply not knowing how to play the position on the NFL level yet. How to use his help, how to direct a pass rusher rather than just try to stone cold stop him. If he can learn more, get some time in with the staff, maybe he'll be passable. All we need him to be is decent, not great.
User avatar
emperorjones
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 4,591
And1: 133
Joined: Jun 16, 2006

Re: Bears Draft Grade 

Post#5 » by emperorjones » Mon Apr 30, 2012 1:56 pm

Sack-wise the line was doing pretty good before Cutler went down. Not great, but they were improving. When Cutler went down opposing defenses knew Caleb & Josh just couldn't beat them with the reviewers we had, do they pinned their ears back & came in waves. With the change in scheme & the added weapons, I doubt we'll be seeing many safety/corner blitzes- especially now that Cutler can audible.

Caleb Hanie was sacked 19 times in four starts – once every 5.37 pass attempts – and Josh McCown was sacked seven times in two starts. Those 26 combined sacks were three more than the 23 Cutler had in 10 games. This isn’t to absolve the offensive line for pass-protection issues, but the statistics in this case are a little misleading.
User avatar
Magilla_Gorilla
RealGM
Posts: 32,055
And1: 4,458
Joined: Oct 24, 2006
Location: Sunday Morning coming down...
         

Re: Bears Draft Grade 

Post#6 » by Magilla_Gorilla » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:16 pm

Cliff Levingston wrote:The truth will fall somewhere in the middle. While a scheme change can help, it's not a panacea. Either these guys can block or they can't, it's about as simple as that.


I'll respectfuly disagree - this isn't a black/white issue. The line can block - when they're not asked to live out on an island and single block for a 7 step drop. Give them help and limit the amount of time needed to hold off a pass rusher who runs a 4.6 and they'll do well. Tice knows this, and it partly why the stats for the OL were so much better when they were able to reign Martz in. Unfortunately is was short lived, and then Happy-feet Hanie came in and destroyed whatever momentum the OL had gained. I'm not saying the is going to be an all-pro line - but what it is is a young OL that had some injuries and that was handicapped by the OC and backup QB. If Carimi can come back healthy - I think this can be a good OL. Not great, but some development of the existng talent and they may one day be.

What Cliff Levingston is banking on (for hope's sake alone) is that the coaching staff will get a full summer with these guys, unlike last year. Webb was a 7th round project who was thrust into the starting lineup as a rookie and he was taken as a project. ICLO, they never wanted to put him in there. He was good enough (Cliff Levingston guesses) to get a further look but the lockout basically took all the time away from the coaching staff to work with him.

Listening to Tom Thayer talk about him, he says Webb's problems are all mental; just simply not knowing how to play the position on the NFL level yet. How to use his help, how to direct a pass rusher rather than just try to stone cold stop him. If he can learn more, get some time in with the staff, maybe he'll be passable. All we need him to be is decent, not great.


Agree completely. Webb has every physical skill you'd look for - he just needs time and coaching. Tice has staked his reputation to Webb, I think he sees the potential in the kid and they'll do everything they have to to get it out of him.
Sham - Y U NO sell me a t-shirt? Best OB/GYN Houston
User avatar
emperorjones
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 4,591
And1: 133
Joined: Jun 16, 2006

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#7 » by emperorjones » Thu May 3, 2012 3:34 pm

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/fo ... ory?page=1

3. Lovie Smith wouldn’t say where Chris Williams will line up when players hit the field for drill work in the voluntary offseason workout program, but it isn’t hard to jump to a conclusion. The guess is Williams, after spending most of the last two seasons at guard, will be back at tackle. First, here is what Smith said when I asked him if Williams would begin at left guard, where the 2008 first-round draft pick made nine starts last season before a season-ending wrist injury and 11 starts to end the 2010 season.

“I couldn’t tell you that right now,” Smith said. “We have our options with him, we’ll see how it all shakes out, but Chris of course can do both. Right now, we’ve been two weeks into our off-season program. Let us get into it a little bit more and we’ll be able to define some roles a little bit better then.”

All you have to do is dig into the roster and depth chart a little bit to see that a return to tackle makes most sense. The Bears came out of the draft without adding a lineman and the only addition via free agency has been guard Chilo Rachal, a second-round pick from 2008 by the San Francisco 49ers.

Without Williams, that gives the Bears and offensive coordinator Mike Tice seven options at guard, five of them with considerable NFL playing experience. Here is the list:

Chris Spencer: Started 14 games at right guard last season. Top contender for starting job.

Lance Louis: Made 13 starts last season with injuries forcing him to right tackle for 11 of them. Considered a more natural guard.

Chilo Rachal: Started 38 games for the 49ers and is a big, athletic option in the mold Tice likes.

Edwin Williams: Showed improvement when he started final seven games at left guard last season.

Mansfield Wrotto: Has 12 NFL starts but was a Tim Ruskell-driven acquisition so uncertain how much support he has.

Ricky Henry: Showed enough in preseason last year to stick around.

Reggie Stephens: Late addition to practice squad last season with ability to play center.

There isn’t nearly as much depth at tackle where the only movement has been the departure of Frank Omiyale. Left tackle J’Marcus Webb returns and Gabe Carimi, the first-round pick last year, is expected to start at right tackle. Behind them is Levi Horn, a practice squad member most of the last two seasons who will have an uphill battle to stick around.

So the Bears appear to have three options right now:

A. Move Chris Williams back to tackle where it looks like he would be the swing tackle.

B. Keep Louis at tackle even though evaluations are he is better suited for the interior.

C. Sign a free-agent tackle with few attractive options available. Most veterans on the street are there because of medical issues.

The guess is the Bears move Chris Williams back to tackle, but like Smith said, they have some options and some time.

4. Left tackle J’Marcus Webb receives the majority of criticism from the public and he had some weak moments last season. He allowed far too many sacks and negative plays that just crippled the offense at times. But he’s going to be the starter. That is what Lovie Smith consistently has said. It’s what Mike Tice said when he spoke to the Tribune in January during the Senior Bowl. It’s what is clear after no top pick was used on an offensive tackle.
Let’s rewind to those comments from Tice:

“Here is what I saw with him: Second-year player playing one side one year and one side another,” Tice said. “I thought he was adequate. I thought his consistency grade -- how many times does he block his guy – his consistency grade was actually solid. What grade was bad was the critical errors, the sacks, penalties, not really a ton of quarterback hits. When he made a critical error, everyone knew what it was. But, what you look at is the development of a second-year, seventh-round draft pick. Is he a guy we can move forward and win with?

“Well, if you change your drops and you’re not always in the deep drops. If you change your philosophy of making sure the guy gets chip help from a back or a tight end. If you change and move the release point of the quarterback, you’re going to already make him better without making him better. And then you have an entire offseason and now you have a chance to make him better there. So there are two ways I just told you we can get him better in. And then already I think he is a very good run blocker. That is an area that doesn’t get talked about. Do I think he is the guy moving forward? Yes, I do unless some miracle happens and an elite first-round pick that we couldn’t pass up fell in our lap which I doubt. Yeah, he’s our guy moving forward.”

We know the elite left tackle didn’t fall into the lap of the Bears with the 19th pick. They passed on Iowa’s Riley Reiff in selecting defensive end Shea McClellin 19th overall. Reiff went to the Detroit Lions with the 23rd pick, an option to help them rebuild an aging line. One of the knocks against Reiff: His arm length isn’t ideal for an offensive tackle. That was something critics said about Chris Williams when he was selected four years ago.
User avatar
Chewie
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,675
And1: 336
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Location: Fishhawk, F-L-A.
       

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#8 » by Chewie » Thu May 3, 2012 4:41 pm

Well, color me still worried where the tackles are concerned. I can see arguments for both sides here. On the plus side, we've got Tice the factor going for us and a scheme change that doesn't have our QB taking such deep drops. Webb and Chris Williams have another year of experience under their belts and Carimi will (hopefully) be 100% after coming back from injury. To boot, in the offseason we got one of the best pass protecting RBs in Michael Bush to help out.

On the con side, Webb is coming off a season in which he allowed a league high 14 sacks and flagged an NFL high 8 times for false starts and 5 times for holding. Blame Martz all you want for the sacks and holds but the false starts are an issue that lies between the ear holes and Tice isn't a miracle worker. It's this year or never for Webb. As far as Williams goes, last time I checked as a tackle he makes for a good guard but maybe he'll show something in camp. He looked awfully soft when given his first shot there previously. And I still need to see what Carimi can do - I know we everyone wants to assume he's going to be a fixture based on draft position but he played all of - what - 2 regular season games before getting hurt? I don't even know what we've got in the guy. He's an Angelo first round draft pick after all. Why would I give him the benefit of the doubt? Because he's a Wisconsin offensive lineman?

But - hey - maybe the scheme change will be a big enough difference maker. And maybe Webb and Williams will figure it out. And maybe Carimi is legit and the knee won't be an issue going forward. Guess we'll find out soon. Beyond the usual secondary concerns and a 4th DT, the OT position is really the only big concern I've got at the moment.
Turn down for what?
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 69,579
And1: 37,003
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
 

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#9 » by fleet » Thu May 3, 2012 6:44 pm

So in short...........west coast type offense?
Thing of it is, Jay Cutler likes to go deep. The Bears cant be that, all the time, and have Jay be all that he can be. No, the Bears cant hide bad talent on the line forever.....they have to unearth a left tackle who doesn't need a baby sitter. They cant keep playing bums like Lance Lewis. They have made remarkable progress, but you cannot scheme over bad linemen ultimately when you play a great defense in big games.

These guys keep playing at their current performance level, unfortunately its tantamount to a ceiling on this team, I don't care what blocking schemes and play calling they use. Mike Martz had his faults. But he was scapegoated for a piss poor job acquiring talent on that line.
1rage
Starter
Posts: 2,318
And1: 13
Joined: Dec 12, 2010

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#10 » by 1rage » Thu May 3, 2012 7:17 pm

fleet wrote:So in short...........west coast type offense?
Thing of it is, Jay Cutler likes to go deep. The Bears cant be that, all the time, and have Jay be all that he can be. No, the Bears cant hide bad talent on the line forever.....they have to unearth a left tackle who doesn't need a baby sitter. They cant keep playing bums like Lance Lewis. They have made remarkable progress, but you cannot scheme over bad linemen ultimately when you play a great defense in big games.

These guys keep playing at their current performance level, unfortunately its tantamount to a ceiling on this team, I don't care what blocking schemes and play calling they use. Mike Martz had his faults. But he was scapegoated for a piss poor job acquiring talent on that line.

same Lance Louis who was a beast at RG in the Eagles game, pancake blocking people. And was forced to play out of position when OMG got benched?

Same Lance Louis who was able to prevent Kamerion Wimbley in the Raiders game from scoring a touchdown on an otherwise pick-6?

he was horrible at RT after he got figured out, but that's not his position being 6'2 anyway. at G he was pretty adequate imo
Image
User avatar
emperorjones
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 4,591
And1: 133
Joined: Jun 16, 2006

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#11 » by emperorjones » Thu May 3, 2012 11:14 pm

1rage wrote:
fleet wrote:So in short...........west coast type offense?
Thing of it is, Jay Cutler likes to go deep. The Bears cant be that, all the time, and have Jay be all that he can be. No, the Bears cant hide bad talent on the line forever.....they have to unearth a left tackle who doesn't need a baby sitter. They cant keep playing bums like Lance Lewis. They have made remarkable progress, but you cannot scheme over bad linemen ultimately when you play a great defense in big games.

These guys keep playing at their current performance level, unfortunately its tantamount to a ceiling on this team, I don't care what blocking schemes and play calling they use. Mike Martz had his faults. But he was scapegoated for a piss poor job acquiring talent on that line.

same Lance Louis who was a beast at RG in the Eagles game, pancake blocking people. And was forced to play out of position when OMG got benched?

Same Lance Louis who was able to prevent Kamerion Wimbley in the Raiders game from scoring a touchdown on an otherwise pick-6?

he was horrible at RT after he got figured out, but that's not his position being 6'2 anyway. at G he was pretty adequate imo


This logic bothers me too. You would think that people would command Lance Louis for playing out a position and not complaining one time with all the criticism that he got. I think Lance Louis gets the starting right guard spot next season and stays there for a long time to come.
User avatar
Chewie
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,675
And1: 336
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Location: Fishhawk, F-L-A.
       

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#12 » by Chewie » Thu May 3, 2012 11:40 pm

Sorry, fleet, as much as I rag on this offensive line, I've got to admit I saw Louis make some strides last year. The Eagles game in particular stood out to me when he laid out Trent Cole...
Turn down for what?
User avatar
Friend_Of_Haley
RealGM
Posts: 10,139
And1: 374
Joined: Aug 16, 2003
Location: Locked Out

O-Line Discussion 

Post#13 » by Friend_Of_Haley » Thu May 3, 2012 11:47 pm

Anyone hoping that with having such a young line and the fact they didn't get to work with Tice all last off season bodes well for internal improvement?

Consider Webb was a developmental pick who hasn't had a full off season yet... Maybe there's still hope. With Carimi, it comes down to health, and we have a lot of experienced players on the inside. All im asking for is average. Maybe we have no studs, but with OL, having a strong unit 1-5 is more important than having stars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Image
heir_jordan22
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,406
And1: 325
Joined: Jul 16, 2008
   

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#14 » by heir_jordan22 » Fri May 4, 2012 1:56 am

I like Louis as well. He started dominating at guard after a slow start. He had a terrible game at tackle against the Chiefs with five sacks allowed, but it looked like all but one were on Hanie holding the ball too long.

Carimi. He was on the ground to many times. I saw him making blocks from his knees and I didn't know what the hell he was doing. Needs to stay on balance.

Webb. He looked lost sometimes. Maybe Tice can develop him, but progress is yet to be seen.

Chris Williams. This guy was doing work before his injury. The biggest thing is that he was playing with supreme confidence. I think he can play tackle if Tice wants him to. And weren't there rumors that he might be the successor at center?

Garza/Spencer. Both of them are under-sized to me but play smart. With so much competition at guard added I really wonder if they might move C. Williams to center.
fleet
Senior Mod - Bulls
Senior Mod - Bulls
Posts: 69,579
And1: 37,003
Joined: Dec 23, 2002
 

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#15 » by fleet » Fri May 4, 2012 2:05 am

aside from the question of whether or not Lance Lewis is going to play well enough, I'm not comforted with scheming and playcalling my way out of sub par play. Might the coaching staff have some insight into J'Marcus Webb and the left tackle position this year? And Carimi? I don't know. But blaming it all on Mike Martz sort of chaps my you know what.
User avatar
Chewie
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,675
And1: 336
Joined: Jul 13, 2007
Location: Fishhawk, F-L-A.
       

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#16 » by Chewie » Fri May 4, 2012 2:23 am

heir_jordan22 wrote:
Carimi. He was on the ground to many times. I saw him making blocks from his knees and I didn't know what the hell he was doing. Needs to stay on balance.



Ahhh - noticed this as well did you ? I don't want to see any more of that crap this year.
Turn down for what?
heir_jordan22
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,406
And1: 325
Joined: Jul 16, 2008
   

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#17 » by heir_jordan22 » Fri May 4, 2012 2:38 am

Through 10 games (the pre-Cutler-injury era) the Bears allowed 23 sacks. Games 6-10 (5 game winning streak) the Bears allowed only 5 sacks. 5 sacks!!!! Carimi was long gone, and I believe C. Williams was out for that San Diego game.

That's a one sack per game average. We didn't have our number one draft pick, we didn't have our best lineman for a game and a half (Williams), we didn't have anywhere near the talent at receiver, and we still were doing quite a few seven-step drops.

I actually have a lot of confidence in the line going into this year. This group is an elite run-blocking line. Over 2,000 yards rushing last year, and the holes kept growing until Cutler went down. It's all about staying healthy.
heir_jordan22
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,406
And1: 325
Joined: Jul 16, 2008
   

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#18 » by heir_jordan22 » Fri May 4, 2012 2:53 am

Chewie wrote:
heir_jordan22 wrote:
Carimi. He was on the ground to many times. I saw him making blocks from his knees and I didn't know what the hell he was doing. Needs to stay on balance.



Ahhh - noticed this as well did you ? I don't want to see any more of that crap this year.

Yea it was painful to watch sometimes. I'll attribute that to the lockout though since he definitely displayed the athleticism, strength, footwork and awareness in those couple games. He would just reach out and fall off balance. Tice should be able to fix that.
BIGGIEsmalls 23
Banned User
Posts: 13,283
And1: 810
Joined: Jul 28, 2010
Location: REALITY
   

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#19 » by BIGGIEsmalls 23 » Fri May 4, 2012 3:06 am

heir_jordan22 wrote:This group is an elite run-blocking line. Over 2,000 yards rushing last year, and the holes kept growing until Cutler went down. It's all about staying healthy.

Completely agree with this portion, Heir.

This is the main reason that I wouldn't invest long-term big money into Forte. Every single one of our RBs looked awesome behind our O-Line at times last season.
Darth Celtic
Retired Mod
Retired Mod
Posts: 38,946
And1: 17,506
Joined: Jun 26, 2003
Location: Big 3 will crush the east!
     

Re: O-Line Discussion 

Post#20 » by Darth Celtic » Fri May 4, 2012 6:48 am

yeah, many who dog on this line forget, they really are good at run blocking. Webb is huge, can move a pile, and can get out in space well for somebody his size. And the guys coming back from injury are even better run blockers. If u run that good, u tend to give up less sacks, as u pass less, and have play action to use well.

I'm happy with the line. I like williams at tackle, he is better at pass blocking then web, but at tackle, less of a run blocker. So i'd start webb as well.

Webb (at least in preseason), Louis, garza, spencer, carimi.
MrDollarBills = MrWelchesBets

Return to Chicago Bears