We own 2 of the most overrated players in the league!!

[Iggyemu]

Maybe that's because only Rockets fans actually pay attention to what his injuries really are.

Les doesn't put finances in the back seat to winning either. He plays a selective balancing game. I'm not positive it's this year or bust, but wouldn't be surprised. Regardless of the outcome, I don't see us getting rid of Yao under any circumstances that don't involve "the Chinese government demands it" or "retirement". Period. There's international negotiations and all sorts of other crap involved in his contract that is completely non-standard NBA stuff.

You are usually a smart guy. But that was completely idiotic. I am sorry. If someone continues to get foot injuries..be it toe infections or broken ankles or stress fractures...then he has a problem. If he wasn't 7'5 those falls he takes wouldn't result in breaks..they would result in sprains. Yao is injury prone. To assume that only Rocket fans know this team is completely idiotic on your part. Get off this board more....the Rockets are not some secret team that plays in a secret league. They play in the NBA...they are consistently one of your better teams. People know of them. People know of our injury problems...people know of Yao and McGrady's first round failures etc.

I implore you...don't do that. Don't be that guy that considers himself special b/c he watches one particular team on a nightly basis. You are beyond that.

And about Alexander....from what I have seen he wants to win more than make money. Of course he strives for the balance...but right now he is paying the lux tax b/c of Artest. One of the few owners doing that. Owners don't do that unless they want to win. If Artest works out I am sure he'll be willing to go deeper into the lux tax to hang on to him.

Look bro...China and all the revenue Yao generates for this team through China is not enough to sustain this team. Fans have to come out. Houston fans...NBA TV contracts....US advertising through the Rockets..those things sustain a team. Combine that with China and you can see why we are one of the better revenue generating teams. But consider this though...the Lakers have no Chinese players and they are the highest grossing team in the NBA. Here is what I am saying though...how many more injuries will it take for Houston fans to completely not care about this team. For ESPN and TNT to take us off their schedule?

Well thats something Alexander has to think about. I don't think he'll hold onto a guy just because he generates revenue from China. He wants a balance. And Yao keeps getting huge devastating injuries that balance will be gone. We hint about rebuilding if we fail to make the playoffs or get ousted in the first round this season. Well answer this....who rebuilds around an injury prone player? Why would the Rockets do such a thing?

[b-ballwizard]

The reason McGrady isn't on the list is b/c he is pretty much ranked where he should be. Where Yao is supposedly the best center in the league. And Battier is one of the best...if not the best role player in the league....McGrady is 2nd tier swing man. Anyone saying he is below that or above that is simply being biased in whatever direction.

Honestly, when I clicked to read the article I was sure it was gonna be Yao and McGrady. When I saw that he wasn't on it...I realized why. You can't be overrated when people consider you what you actually are.

Faulty argument. You used a very broad term to describe McGrady. Just like most reasonable people agree that T-mac's a 2nd-tier swingman, most reasonable people also agree Yao's a "1st-tier big man".

Declaring him as the #1 big man is where the debating starts. Same way with McGrady if you give him an exact ranking.

T-mac had one of the worst seasons of his prime career last year, posting a PER of just 18.7, his lowest since his rookie year. If I said Manu Ginobili, who had a significantly higher PER of 24.7 last season, was a better player than T-mac, it would cause an uproar amongst a lot of T-mac/Rox fans. I'm saying this because it actually happened.

Same with Chauncey Billups, Steve Nash, Kevin Martin, Allen Iverson, Shawn Marion, Baron Davis, Paul Pierce, Deron Williams, Vince Carter, Michael Redd......even Ron Artest. Each of these guys posted better PERs than T-mac last year. But there's probably a lot of people that wouldn't ever consider the possibility of a bunch of those names ever being ranked above Tracy.

I think he's overrated. My theory has always been that a lot people have yet to detach T-mac of that "superstar" label he earned back in his Orlando and early Houston days. He doesn't play like a superstar anymore, but he still has superstar expectations. I think it's because he fell off so quickly while still being at an age that people are accustomed to players still peaking at.

[moofs]

You are usually a smart guy. But that was completely idiotic. I am sorry. If someone continues to get foot injuries..be it toe infections or broken ankles or stress fractures...then he has a problem. If he wasn't 7'5 those falls he takes wouldn't result in breaks..they would result in sprains. Yao is injury prone. To assume that only Rocket fans know this team is completely idiotic on your part. Get off this board more....the Rockets are not some secret team that plays in a secret league. They play in the NBA...they are consistently one of your better teams. People know of them. People know of our injury problems...people know of Yao and McGrady's first round failures etc.

I implore you...don't do that. Don't be that guy that considers himself special b/c he watches one particular team on a nightly basis. You are beyond that.

Well let's examine this then.
- Yao endured an extended period on the inactive list in his fourth season after developing osteomyelitis in the big toe on his left foot, and surgery was performed on the toe on December 18, 2005
- With only four games left in the season, Yao suffered another injury in a game against the Utah Jazz on April 10, 2006, which left him with a broken bone in his left foot. The injury required six months of rest.
- Early into his fifth season, Yao was injured again, this time breaking his right knee on December 23, 2006 while attempting to block a shot.
- On February 26, 2008, however, it was reported that Yao would miss the rest of the season with a stress fracture in his left foot.

To be fair, I'd forgotten about the one with 4 games left in the season.
- The knee shouldn't be recurring.
- The toe thing is pretty minor. It was the same as what Shaq had, no biggie.
- We now have a broken bone and stress fracture, both in the left foot, and spaced by nearly two years. I personally don't know the location, but that's going to be involved in saying "it's likely to be a recurring injury", which not a single doctor I've heard of has yet said.

Obviously there was no broken ankle, but the thing is, for an injury to be recurring, it needs to be in the same area. "Foot" is not the same area, it's too vague. Moreover, one of those two injuries was from an impact, which happens.

For the bolded parts, my statements in that were based not on people not getting information about the Rockets, but from that information more commonly coming largely from national sources. I know ESPN and TNT both have a good history of misrepresenting our team, I've seen it being talked about on their broadcasts plenty. Hell our own local sources misrepresent a lot of crap, and even our own local fans don't tend to realize the ridiculousness of say, the whole "first round" thing, for instance. You'll note that I didn't say WE'RE THE ONLY ONES THAT KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE ROCKETS, I said MAYBE we're the only ones that paid attention to what his injuries REALLY are, as opposed to some inspecific nebular cloud ("foot"). And no, I don't think IT'S ONLY US that knows, but I do think that a lot of national sources tend to dramatize our situation more than our local ones (well, Feigen anyway, can't say that for Blinebury and Justice), which is going to increase our rate of knowing what the heck is really going on. Heh and yes I used the word "only". Given how often I use the words "maybe", "probably", "likelihood", etc, do you really think I *meant* "ONLY"? Just used the wrong word, big le oops.

And about Alexander....from what I have seen he wants to win more than make money. Of course he strives for the balance...but right now he is paying the lux tax b/c of Artest. One of the few owners doing that. Owners don't do that unless they want to win. If Artest works out I am sure he'll be willing to go deeper into the lux tax to hang on to him.

Like I said, selective balancing. He's absolutely not the Yankees, Blazers, Knicks, Red Sox, Mavericks, or whatever have you by any means though. I can agree with your re-statement, it was the "finances take a back seat to winning." Little more open way of saying it and I read it a different way.

Look bro...China and all the revenue Yao generates for this team through China is not enough to sustain this team. Fans have to come out. Houston fans...NBA TV contracts....US advertising through the Rockets..those things sustain a team. Combine that with China and you can see why we are one of the better revenue generating teams. But consider this though...the Lakers have no Chinese players and they are the highest grossing team in the NBA. Here is what I am saying though...how many more injuries will it take for Houston fans to completely not care about this team. For ESPN and TNT to take us off their schedule?

The Lakers case is a bit special given L.A.'s see-and-be-seen culture, higher population, consistently winning nature, and vaguely-competent-like (can't complement Kupchak too much even with The Heist) management. Why would we just toss away an additional revenue stream? I don't follow. It's not whether or not we have injuries that keep people from watching, it's whether or not we're winning and/or watchable that does it. If we can still win, how do injuries impact us like that?

Well thats something Alexander has to think about. I don't think he'll hold onto a guy just because he generates revenue from China. He wants a balance. And Yao keeps getting huge devastating injuries that balance will be gone. We hint about rebuilding if we fail to make the playoffs or get ousted in the first round this season. Well answer this....who rebuilds around an injury prone player? Why would the Rockets do such a thing?

Right, but given the medical indetermination above, the lost revenue stream, that as configured we're still capable of winning games now that we finally have some depth, that Yao still has 3 years on his contract, that whoever we trade him to is still going to have to have the sizable Chinese market, AND not care about the "injury prone" reason we're wanting to trade him, that the Chinese government is going to demand to agree to anything we do with him, and probably quite a few other reasons, it's going to be, uh, tricky, to trade Yao. Bear in mind, I've thought for 2 years that we might just be better without him, much as I like the guy.

sleeeeeeping...

[Iggyemu]

Ok moofs. I think I went off into a place I didn't want to go. The area of finances. Lets just talk about the injuries you listed (the ankle thing was that injury against Utah. I thought it was his ankle...but it was his foot..still a significant injury).

I am not saying the guy has a chronic foot problem. I am saying the guy is injury prone. Come on man...you made the point for me. Even if you scratch off the toe problem...which I am fine with...the knee cap...the stress fracture...the broken foot...those are quite significant injury. What makes a person injury prone is how often they get injured (obviously). Those things have happened in consecutive seasons. Its honestly to the point right now where I know Yao will be injured this season...I am just hoping its more like 2007 where he got injured early and was back in time for the playoffs.

There is gonna be point where Alexander will cut his losses. And if we are winning games without him...and if he continues to get injured every season then I am sure the Rockets will look to trade him or won't re-sign him. When Yao came into the league he was very durable. Obviously something changed...I dunno what but something. If he can get back to that form he can be a franchise center once again. As of right now...he is not a franchise center...not someone you should build around. Its why we got Artest. We are to the point where we are anticipating a big injury for him. I mean come on..he isn't even fully healed from the last one and here he is going hard in the Olympics.

And if we wanted to trade him...teams would bite. East teams especially. Either way I don't think you can rebuild with him. McGrady is easy to move. Artest will expire. Yao will be tough...but thats why GMs are GMs. All I know is another injury to Yao all but seals his fate as a Rocket. I personally think putting fans in the seats in Houston, Texas and garner fans from all around America (like the Lakers have) far outweighs anything China can provide. The numbers may not back me up but thats just how I feel. In order to do that we gotta win. We can't win with an injury prone center. And Yao is injury prone. I think generally he will always have foot problems b/c of his size. Thats just logical. But I don't know if I used the word 'chronic' to describe that. If I did then I was wrong. And yea these things might be freak accidents but they continue to occur to him. He is not the only guy to fall when blocking a shot...not the only guy to get his foot stepped on.

What sets him apart is his size. Like I said...what would be sprains for other guys is a break for him.

[Iggyemu]

The reason McGrady isn't on the list is b/c he is pretty much ranked where he should be. Where Yao is supposedly the best center in the league. And Battier is one of the best...if not the best role player in the league....McGrady is 2nd tier swing man. Anyone saying he is below that or above that is simply being biased in whatever direction.

Honestly, when I clicked to read the article I was sure it was gonna be Yao and McGrady. When I saw that he wasn't on it...I realized why. You can't be overrated when people consider you what you actually are.

Faulty argument. You used a very broad term to describe McGrady. Just like most reasonable people agree that T-mac's a 2nd-tier swingman, most reasonable people also agree Yao's a "1st-tier big man".

Declaring him as the #1 big man is where the debating starts. Same way with McGrady if you give him an exact ranking.

T-mac had one of the worst seasons of his prime career last year, posting a PER of just 18.7, his lowest since his rookie year. If I said Manu Ginobili, who had a significantly higher PER of 24.7 last season, was a better player than T-mac, it would cause an uproar amongst a lot of T-mac/Rox fans. I'm saying this because it actually happened.

Same with Chauncey Billups, Steve Nash, Kevin Martin, Allen Iverson, Shawn Marion, Baron Davis, Paul Pierce, Deron Williams, Vince Carter, Michael Redd......even Ron Artest. Each of these guys posted better PERs than T-mac last year. But there's probably a lot of people that wouldn't ever consider the possibility of a bunch of those names ever being ranked above Tracy.

I think he's overrated. My theory has always been that a lot people have yet to detach T-mac of that "superstar" label he earned back in his Orlando and early Houston days. He doesn't play like a superstar anymore, but he still has superstar expectations. I think it's because he fell off so quickly while still being at an age that people are accustomed to players still peaking at.

I think the thing about that is that people still believe McGrady has it in him. Hell I believe it. I think he can still be as good as any perimeter player in this league. We all know he has the talent. He lacks the drive. He had the drive in Orlando. Early on in Houston...its all gone now.

But the reason there will be uproar and the reason there was is b/c people still believe he has that level of play. It would different if he lost the ability. But people don't believe that. We believe he still as it. Whether or not thats true is something we'll find out...like we found out Paul Pierce was still a relevant NBA player this past playoffs.

I don't think its a matter of letting go. I think its a matter of being proved wrong. LIke...if McGrady had this, this and this what would he do? We lacked talent in 05 and 07...injuries in 08. Although in 07 he had his best chance. When we needed him he wasn't there in game 6 and game 7. Personally I dunno what he would do if he had that, that and that. I think it'll be more like 07 where he defers and lets that, that and that take the shots. But there are people that think he would be great and lead us to a title. Think Paul Pierce with KG and Ray Allen.

[moofs]

Unrelated to replies edit:

And no, I don't think IT'S ONLY US that knows, but I do think that a lot of national sources tend to dramatize our situation more than our local ones (well, Feigen anyway, can't say that for Blinebury and Justice), which is going to increase our rate of knowing what the heck is really going on. Heh and yes I used the word "only". Given how often I use the words "maybe", "probably", "likelihood", etc, do you really think I *meant* "ONLY"? Just used the wrong word, big le oops.

Given that even I don't know which bone it is specifically, and doubt many people do, this was something of a bad argument. The dramatization still holds, the being generally (though not exclusively) more knowledgeable holds, but I was also talking a bunch of crap about the specific injury, which it looks like our argument, this board's history, and talking to just about anyone show that very few people seem to know.

[moofs]

I am not saying the guy has a chronic foot problem. I am saying the guy is injury prone. Come on man...you made the point for me. Even if you scratch off the toe problem...which I am fine with...the knee cap...the stress fracture...the broken foot...those are quite significant injury. What makes a person injury prone is how often they get injured (obviously). Those things have happened in consecutive seasons. Its honestly to the point right now where I know Yao will be injured this season...I am just hoping its more like 2007 where he got injured early and was back in time for the playoffs.

There is gonna be point where Alexander will cut his losses. And if we are winning games without him...and if he continues to get injured every season then I am sure the Rockets will look to trade him or won't re-sign him. When Yao came into the league he was very durable. Obviously something changed...I dunno what but something. If he can get back to that form he can be a franchise center once again. As of right now...he is not a franchise center...not someone you should build around. Its why we got Artest. We are to the point where we are anticipating a big injury for him. I mean come on..he isn't even fully healed from the last one and here he is going hard in the Olympics.

And if we wanted to trade him...teams would bite. East teams especially. Either way I don't think you can rebuild with him. McGrady is easy to move. Artest will expire. Yao will be tough...but thats why GMs are GMs. All I know is another injury to Yao all but seals his fate as a Rocket. I personally think putting fans in the seats in Houston, Texas and garner fans from all around America (like the Lakers have) far outweighs anything China can provide. The numbers may not back me up but thats just how I feel. In order to do that we gotta win. We can't win with an injury prone center. And Yao is injury prone. I think generally he will always have foot problems b/c of his size. Thats just logical. But I don't know if I used the word 'chronic' to describe that. If I did then I was wrong. And yea these things might be freak accidents but they continue to occur to him. He is not the only guy to fall when blocking a shot...not the only guy to get his foot stepped on.

What sets him apart is his size. Like I said...what would be sprains for other guys is a break for him.

I'm just going to say this, without personally drawing any conclusions.

Shaq 1992-1995 - Age 20-23: 241 Games
Yao 2002-2005 - Age 22-25: 244 Games

Shaq 1996-1999 - Age 24-27: 160 Games
Yao 2005-2008 - Age 25-28: 160 Games

Shaq had offseasons, which Yao may soon be getting. Neither Yao's nor Shaq's injuries seriously hampered them upon their returns. Yao does not look to be Bill Walton at this point (which it looks like you agree with). Don't recall Shaq's injuries having ever kept him out of the playoffs. Imply what you want.

[smapor]

Iggyemu

When T-Mac broke down with his bad back, every single year people questioned his back, T-Mac fans still had hope of him being a superstar. Did he have back problems last year? Nope, but who is to say, he won't have it this year. T-mac is already injury prone but i don't see you saying he is one more injury from being finished. Like one poster above says, his PER was LOW compared to many other players.

But yet you continue to bash Yao fans, when in fact they just wish him the best and they will continue to hope that those injuries are just a fluke. At least Yao plays like he has no injury, unlike some super stars who no longer wish to drive and play like they want to win it.

Back to the over-rated arguement. Anybody who considers Yao overrated needs a reality check. When the Refs can finally make the correct calls on Yao, maybe than you can call him overrated. Till than many of us Rocket Fans and former Ex-Coach JVG knows Yao gets screwed with Ref calls. Lets not even mention the Dallas/Rocket series where JVG was correct in his statements saying Yao was targeted by the Refs.

Till than Yao is not overrated in my mind. He may be slow, he may be weak against quick players, his rebounds may suck, he may not be dominate every game(how quickly people forget the new rules) but the numbers don't lie, 7'6 center posting numbers like this vs past 7'4 centers is huge. As we all know, just being tall doesn't mean you are going to be the best basketball player and sometimes being taller has its disadvantages.

I swear some of you won't be happy until Yao posts 30pts and 20 rebound games all year long till than he will always be overrated by NBA fans.

-

[b-ballwizard]

I think the thing about that is that people still believe McGrady has it in him. Hell I believe it. I think he can still be as good as any perimeter player in this league. We all know he has the talent. He lacks the drive. He had the drive in Orlando. Early on in Houston...its all gone now.

But the reason there will be uproar and the reason there was is b/c people still believe he has that level of play. It would different if he lost the ability. But people don't believe that. We believe he still as it. Whether or not thats true is something we'll find out...like we found out Paul Pierce was still a relevant NBA player this past playoffs.

I don't think its a matter of letting go. I think its a matter of being proved wrong. LIke...if McGrady had this, this and this what would he do? We lacked talent in 05 and 07...injuries in 08. Although in 07 he had his best chance. When we needed him he wasn't there in game 6 and game 7. Personally I dunno what he would do if he had that, that and that. I think it'll be more like 07 where he defers and lets that, that and that take the shots. But there are people that think he would be great and lead us to a title. Think Paul Pierce with KG and Ray Allen.

You don't judge a player based on what you think he has in him. You judge him by results. That's how I judge T-mac. And I'm not talking about winning, I'm talking about straight individual contributions here. I don't see why if T-mac was capable of playing as well as any other perimeter player in the league, he wouldn't do it. Unless he doesn't care all that much about winning?

don't think I'd want the guy to shoot that much, anyways. Last year, he shot a true-shooting percentage of 48.7%. (TS% accounts for 2-pointers, 3-pointers and free-throws) That's just horrible. He's an even less efficient scorer than Rafer Alston!, who gets more crap than anyone for his shot-selection. Mac's not even in the top 100 among guards.

And people actually want this guy to shoot MORE. What's next, will people say he simply doesn't have to drive to make his shots go inside the hoop more often?

He's the least efficient scorer on our roster. That's probably why the guy's so willing to defer and look for the open man nowadays.

Btw, Paul Pierce never became irrelevant to me. Was obvious he just played on bad teams, but before this year, he was coming off seasons in which he averaged 27 and 25ppg. He only averaged 20ppg in the reg. and postseason this year. He only suddenly became relevant to people who don't follow basketball all that closely.