Get Yao the ball in the Low Post

[PocketRockets]

hahaha tisbee.....well we used yao like we should today....we should continue to do so until they double team him consistently...they gave him no respect today and I'm glad he made the most of it....

[TMU]

Preying Mantis Yao,standing tall and making quick move-very good. Evil foe defenseless.
Crouching Tiger Yao,hunched over dribbling ball-very bad. Evil foe strips ball very easily.

[abcdef]

See what happens when Yao gets the ball in the low post, in the last two games? He has been effective offensively. The only shot he missed today was a 20 footer, and he had several offensive putbacks and feeds at the rim by other guys that would not have been there if he were standing at the elbow.

[RaoulDuke79]

YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS LARRY? YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PLAY YAO IN THE LOW POST?!

[the light]

yao does not have to be the first option, but he should be a focal point because he can get fouled, and gets the other team in the penalty. this guy was playing at an mvp level as short as a season and a half ago. he needs touches, rhythm and catches close to the basket. playing him at the high post is like playing brooks in the low post.

[BaYBaller]

You know if Yao was a better offensive rebounder, or athletic enough to get lob passes this would all be a moot point because it would be a no-brainer to keep him in the post 24/7. However Yao can be fronted so easily (by let's face it, scrubs) preventing the pass, and yet still be outrebounded in such an advantageous position. And with Yao down low it clogs up the lane making it hard to drive.

And frankly trying to force the ball into Yao in such scenarios is exactly what is stalling the offense the most. So much clock is eaten up, and then a bad shot must be taken. You should give Yao the ball in the rhythm of the offense, like if he has deep position and/or single-covered. We have 3 good scorers on this team with a very solid bench, there is absolutely no reason to continue to force feed Yao.

Concerning Yao in the high post no question he has looked bad there, but as I pointed out there is really only 2 options for Yao to take his game to another level. He has to improve his high-post game (we already know he's a capable shooter from 18 feet and a willing passer), or he has to become a dominant offensive rebounder capable of grabbing lob passes. For the latter I very much doubt Yao will ever develop the athleticism and quickness needed, so that pretty much leaves him with the former, which much better matches his skillset.

If Yao was able to develop a high post game there's no question he would be a better player, and make the team better, though it might not be reflected in his stats (sorry compucomp). If Yao does not find a way to beat scrubs fronting him I honestly do not ever see us even having a chance to beat a team like Boston.

[abcdef]

You know if Yao was a better offensive rebounder, or athletic enough to get lob passes this would all be a moot point because it would be a no-brainer to keep him in the post 24/7. However Yao can be fronted so easily (by let's face it, scrubs) preventing the pass, and yet still be outrebounded in such an advantageous position. And with Yao down low it clogs up the lane making it hard to drive.

And frankly trying to force the ball into Yao in such scenarios is exactly what is stalling the offense the most. So much clock is eaten up, and then a bad shot must be taken. You should give Yao the ball in the rhythm of the offense, like if he has deep position and/or single-covered. We have 3 good scorers on this team with a very solid bench, there is absolutely no reason to continue to force feed Yao.

Concerning Yao in the high post no question he has looked bad there, but as I pointed out there is really only 2 options for Yao to take his game to another level. He has to improve his high-post game (we already know he's a capable shooter from 18 feet and a willing passer), or he has to become a dominant offensive rebounder capable of grabbing lob passes. For the latter I very much doubt Yao will ever develop the athleticism and quickness needed, so that pretty much leaves him with the former, which much better matches his skillset.

If Yao was able to develop a high post game there's no question he would be a better player, and make the team better, though it might not be reflected in his stats (sorry compucomp). If Yao does not find a way to beat scrubs fronting him I honestly do not ever see us even having a chance to beat a team like Boston.

I don't know where this silly notion of moving Yao to the high post to counter fronting came from. It is completely wrong. It is not countering fronting, it is conceding to the fronting. They are giving up getting the ball to Yao where he can be effective. The way to beat the front is and has always been quick ball movement, precise passing, and other offensive options on the floor that can beat the tilted defense because it is tilted to stop Yao. Take the game against OKC, for example; they did try fronting Yao, but then the defense by design had to give someone good looks, and that day it was Scola, who made them pay because we moved the ball quickly and Scola was decisive in scoring the ball because he was not well guarded. If the Rockets as a team can get quicker and more precise passing and have guys take advantage of the holes in the defense that open up because of the fronting, then the fronting will go away. This has been the way to beat the front from the earliest days of basketball and it still works today.

At the moment Yao is Joel Przybilla at the high post. He is clearly awful there. If he improves his game, he'll be Brad Miller. Half of the anti-Yao posts are already "he is so damn soft", so you want him to play SOFTER?

Does it help the team play better if Yao is at the elbow? Well you tell me, is sub-40% shooting for McGrady and 33% shooting for Artest better? Yao does more for the team when he is in the low post commanding attention due to his scoring than when he is standing at the elbow like a stiff.

Even given that Yao has lost several steps and is not what he once was, there is still no good reason to put him at the high post. If he improves his perimeter game he will be a softer and even worse player, and it does NOT make the team better, unless you are enjoying the sub-40% shooting by McGrady and Artest.

[BaYBaller]

Typically yes a normal center if fronted could in theory run to the other block while the ball is swinged around to get the entry pass if so desired. Of course that is exactly what the Rockets have been doing for the past 4 years. However Yao is not a normal center (read: he is slower). He can't get to the other block before he is already fronted again, even when teammates try to set a screen on his man. I've seen the play over and over and over the past years and if you are so focused on Yao I'm sure you've seen it as well. You should also know it has more or less been ineffective and I would bet good money that teams that front Yao the ratio of successful entry passes to Yao vs TOs is very close to 1:1, which is btw not good.

I've also already said Yao has been awful in the high post, no question. What I was trying to point out was our offense gets stagnant when trying to force feed Yao. It's try entry pass, Yao is fronted. Then Yao goes to the other block and the ball is swinged around, but again he's already fronted before he gets there. Now the shot clock is at 8 and that's either a TO waiting to happen or a desperation drive through the minefield or a 3 pointer with a hand in your face. And your answer is the pound it into Yao more?

Sure, you can look at it as conceding to fronting, or being soft or whatever (why people care about things like this when they should only care about winning I will never know). I see it more as taking what the defense gives you, because everybody and their grandmother knows Yao cannot beat the front. Yao in my eyes has peaked as a post player (perhaps strengthen his left handed hooks a little more). You know his moves, you know what he can and cannot do. That's why I want him to elevate his game in another fashion, to strengthen a weakness. It's like how Tony Parker has spent so much of his time developing a jump shot, because teams know that is his weakness and defenses give that to him. It's a mean of improving ones game, not "conceding" and being "soft." Honestly I'm not really an advocate of the particular notion of Yao in the high post in itself, I just want Yao to improve another aspect of his game so as to be effective on the floor when he is fronted (and please, do not use OKC city as an example... besides, Scola's defender really has nothing to do with Yao's man fronting him). Perhaps maybe he can become a better rebounder if he focuses on that, making teams pay for fronting him on the boards. Right now he seems tentative being aggressive on the boards and on defense because of foul issues, but if I were him I'd just be as aggressive as possible and make the most of my minutes on the floor.

[abcdef]

Typically yes a normal center if fronted could in theory run to the other block while the ball is swinged around to get the entry pass if so desired. Of course that is exactly what the Rockets have been doing for the past 4 years. However Yao is not a normal center (read: he is slower). He can't get to the other block before he is already fronted again, even when teammates try to set a screen on his man. I've seen the play over and over and over the past years and if you are so focused on Yao I'm sure you've seen it as well. You should also know it has more or less been ineffective and I would bet good money that teams that front Yao the ratio of successful entry passes to Yao vs TOs is very close to 1:1, which is btw not good.

I've also already said Yao has been awful in the high post, no question. What I was trying to point out was our offense gets stagnant when trying to force feed Yao. It's try entry pass, Yao is fronted. Then Yao goes to the other block and the ball is swinged around, but again he's already fronted before he gets there. Now the shot clock is at 8 and that's either a TO waiting to happen or a desperation drive through the minefield or a 3 pointer with a hand in your face. And your answer is the pound it into Yao more?

Sure, you can look at it as conceding to fronting, or being soft or whatever (why people care about things like this when they should only care about winning I will never know). I see it more as taking what the defense gives you, because everybody and their grandmother knows Yao cannot beat the front. Yao in my eyes has peaked as a post player (perhaps strengthen his left handed hooks a little more). You know his moves, you know what he can and cannot do. That's why I want him to elevate his game in another fashion, to strengthen a weakness. It's like how Tony Parker has spent so much of his time developing a jump shot, because teams know that is his weakness and defenses give that to him. It's a mean of improving ones game, not "conceding" and being "soft." Honestly I'm not really an advocate of the particular notion of Yao in the high post in itself, I just want Yao to improve another aspect of his game so as to be effective on the floor when he is fronted (and please, do not use OKC city as an example... besides, Scola's defender really has nothing to do with Yao's man fronting him). Perhaps maybe he can become a better rebounder if he focuses on that, making teams pay for fronting him on the boards. Right now he seems tentative being aggressive on the boards and on defense because of foul issues, but if I were him I'd just be as aggressive as possible and make the most of my minutes on the floor.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU11D.HTM

When Yao is on the floor, Rockets average 12 turnovers per 48 minutes. When Yao is off, they average 17 turnovers/48 minutes. You're simply wrong about the turnovers.

The point is when he is fronted, someone else is not being guarded properly. If the ball is quickly rotated to that guy, then he will have an easier time scoring. Scola was that guy against OKC. If that guy beats the defense consistently, the defense will stop fronting and go back to playing straight up. Scola's man ABSOLUTELY has to do with Yao being fronted; there is ALWAYS backside help to protect against the lob, which means that defender's attention is sagging off of Scola into the lane and so if the ball is quickly passed to Scola, his defender is now out of position and he can score. Basketball is a team game and it takes team offense to counter team defense. Quick ball movement has always been the way to beat the front. The team struggles to beat the front when the ball movement is slow.

If Yao in the high post were helping the Rockets, you'd have a case, but it isn't. If you watch the games, you would realize that the typical thing that comes out of Yao standing at the elbow is him standing for 10 seconds waiting for a cutter to open, which never happens, and then he hands off to Alston at the 3 point line for him to dribble around a screen for a midrange shot, which will probably miss. Other possible results are that someone jacks up a trey, which we could get more easily if Yao were drawing a double team in the low post or if we ran someone off picks, or Yao shoots a brick from 20 feet or throws a pass out of bounds or right to the defense. Artest and McGrady are having career worst years, and McGrady didn't play terribly great last year either.

The job of a coach is to put his players in a position to be effective. He's putting Yao in a position to fail, and it's not making the rest of the team better. Clearly it is an awful option and needs to be ditched, even given that Yao is washed up.

[smapor]

Typically yes a normal center if fronted could in theory run to the other block while the ball is swinged around to get the entry pass if so desired. Of course that is exactly what the Rockets have been doing for the past 4 years. However Yao is not a normal center (read: he is slower). He can't get to the other block before he is already fronted again, even when teammates try to set a screen on his man. I've seen the play over and over and over the past years and if you are so focused on Yao I'm sure you've seen it as well. You should also know it has more or less been ineffective and I would bet good money that teams that front Yao the ratio of successful entry passes to Yao vs TOs is very close to 1:1, which is btw not good.

I've also already said Yao has been awful in the high post, no question. What I was trying to point out was our offense gets stagnant when trying to force feed Yao. It's try entry pass, Yao is fronted. Then Yao goes to the other block and the ball is swinged around, but again he's already fronted before he gets there. Now the shot clock is at 8 and that's either a TO waiting to happen or a desperation drive through the minefield or a 3 pointer with a hand in your face. And your answer is the pound it into Yao more?

Sure, you can look at it as conceding to fronting, or being soft or whatever (why people care about things like this when they should only care about winning I will never know). I see it more as taking what the defense gives you, because everybody and their grandmother knows Yao cannot beat the front. Yao in my eyes has peaked as a post player (perhaps strengthen his left handed hooks a little more). You know his moves, you know what he can and cannot do. That's why I want him to elevate his game in another fashion, to strengthen a weakness. It's like how Tony Parker has spent so much of his time developing a jump shot, because teams know that is his weakness and defenses give that to him. It's a mean of improving ones game, not "conceding" and being "soft." Honestly I'm not really an advocate of the particular notion of Yao in the high post in itself, I just want Yao to improve another aspect of his game so as to be effective on the floor when he is fronted (and please, do not use OKC city as an example... besides, Scola's defender really has nothing to do with Yao's man fronting him). Perhaps maybe he can become a better rebounder if he focuses on that, making teams pay for fronting him on the boards. Right now he seems tentative being aggressive on the boards and on defense because of foul issues, but if I were him I'd just be as aggressive as possible and make the most of my minutes on the floor.

http://www.82games.com/0809/08HOU11D.HTM

When Yao is on the floor, Rockets average 12 turnovers per 48 minutes. When Yao is off, they average 17 turnovers/48 minutes. You're simply wrong about the turnovers.

The point is when he is fronted, someone else is not being guarded properly. If the ball is quickly rotated to that guy, then he will have an easier time scoring. Scola was that guy against OKC. If that guy beats the defense consistently, the defense will stop fronting and go back to playing straight up. Scola's man ABSOLUTELY has to do with Yao being fronted; there is ALWAYS backside help to protect against the lob, which means that defender's attention is sagging off of Scola into the lane and so if the ball is quickly passed to Scola, his defender is now out of position and he can score. Basketball is a team game and it takes team offense to counter team defense. Quick ball movement has always been the way to beat the front. The team struggles to beat the front when the ball movement is slow.

If Yao in the high post were helping the Rockets, you'd have a case, but it isn't. If you watch the games, you would realize that the typical thing that comes out of Yao standing at the elbow is him standing for 10 seconds waiting for a cutter to open, which never happens, and then he hands off to Alston at the 3 point line for him to dribble around a screen for a midrange shot, which will probably miss. Other possible results are that someone jacks up a trey, which we could get more easily if Yao were drawing a double team in the low post or if we ran someone off picks, or Yao shoots a brick from 20 feet or throws a pass out of bounds or right to the defense. Artest and McGrady are having career worst years, and McGrady didn't play terribly great last year either.

The job of a coach is to put his players in a position to be effective. He's putting Yao in a position to fail, and it's not making the rest of the team better. Clearly it is an awful option and needs to be ditched, even given that Yao is washed up.

Damn right.

My 2 cents, most people say Yao is declining and people say that because of his offensive output. His defense is average but he obviously has a huge factor in altering shots (which no stats can show)
Truth is offensively, Yao has been blocked in previous years because his movements are robotic. However that never stopped him from scoring in the 20's. This year its all different, he is averaging less FT and Shot attempts a game and if people actually took the time to count how many stupid high posts he had, it literally takes his shot attempts away. Yao averaged 7 FT a game last year and he makes over 80%, its obvious you give him the ball in the low post.

Truthfully, we don't even know if Yao is happy in the high post game, but we all know Yao is a team player and he will do what the coaches ask (remember the times we screamed at JVG when he asked Yao to guard up to the 3pt line)

[BaYBaller]

That stat doesn't prove I'm wrong at all. That's just overall TOs which I wasn't talking about.

Also the man behind Yao preventing the lob is always on the weakside. That means whoever is on the weakside baseline area that person's man is going to be doing this. If Scola is in that area then yes his man would be, but of course that is not always the case. Also at the end of the day you're still not getting Yao the ball and making that weakside player make something happen, which is exactly what the defense wants. Nobody would say that such schemes seriously jeopardizes a defense. Like I said, if Yao was able to grab lob passes and/or more dominant on the offensive boards this would all be a moot point because Yao would still get the ball in some fashion and have a much, much bigger impact on the floor, however that's not the case.

I actually think Yao could be a better offensive rebounder but he seems very tentative at times because of fouls. I want to see Yao really go at it on the boards not worrying about fouls to see where he's at because he does have good hands (though not particularly strong hands). Actually, Yao improved his offensive rebounding last year though it's hard to say if that is a result of increased minutes. Again like I said, I'm not advocating the high post, I just want Yao to have more of an effect on the floor when he's being fronted. If Yao could get back to being a 16-18 pt scorer on 60% fg% and also average 13-14 boards that would help the team a lot more than 22/10 @ 50% fg%.

[smapor]

That stat doesn't prove I'm wrong at all. That's just overall TOs which I wasn't talking about.

Also the man behind Yao preventing the lob is always on the weakside. That means whoever is on the weakside baseline area that person's man is going to be doing this. If Scola is in that area then yes his man would be, but of course that is not always the case. Also at the end of the day you're still not getting Yao the ball and making that weakside player make something happen, which is exactly what the defense wants. Nobody would say that such schemes seriously jeopardizes a defense. Like I said, if Yao was able to grab lob passes and/or more dominant on the offensive boards this would all be a moot point because Yao would still get the ball in some fashion and have a much, much bigger impact on the floor, however that's not the case.

I actually think Yao could be a better offensive rebounder but he seems very tentative at times because of fouls. I want to see Yao really go at it on the boards not worrying about fouls to see where he's at because he does have good hands (though not particularly strong hands). Actually, Yao improved his offensive rebounding last year though it's hard to say if that is a result of increased minutes. Again like I said, I'm not advocating the high post, I just want Yao to have more of an effect on the floor when he's being fronted. If Yao could get back to being a 16-18 pt scorer on 60% fg% and also average 13-14 boards that would help the team a lot more than 22/10 @ 50% fg%.

I would take a 22/10 @ 50% FG because if you look at the rest of the team FG%, especially our starting 5, you would take 22/10 numbers, instead we are settling for 14-15/9 rebounds from Yao because he is taking less shots, let alone creating fouls. I would love to see games where Yao gets 20-22 FG attempts at the low post, when the Rocket jump shooters are struggling. Instead we still see games where Artest is like 3-10, Rafer is like 1-7, etc. Just dump the ball in the low post and let Yao shoot or pass it out.

[BaYBaller]

First of all everybody knows this team (and most players generally) start out slow. Overall people's stats will pick up as the team starts to gel and play better and there's no reason to think otherwise when this is exactly what happened the past 4-5 seasons. What I'm saying is take the current season's stats with a grain of salt.

Secondly if Yao is being defended normally and under single coverage yes that's a no brainer dump it down to him. If he's being fronted and/or swarmed vs active teams like BOS is what I'm trying to point at. If Yao could be more effective on the boards he will still have a strong imprint on the game without having to force fed all the time. I do believe it is an area where Yao can improve on but like I said Yao seems very tentative because of foul concerns.

And most coaches would trade a few ppg for higher effeciency and more rebounds (at least in terms if you're trying to win). It's no contest.

[bigbreakfast]

I don't think Yao will ever average 13-14 boards a game... I think he peaks at 10-11/game, though I agree that he seems very tentative this year. I don't particularly think that Yao's efficiency goes down at all if he takes more shot attempts than what he is getting now in the low post, I think he is capable of shooting 50+% while taking 16-18 shots a night. But given his style of play, I don't think he'll be a 60% scorer, even if he takes less shots.

Secondly if Yao is being defended normally and under single coverage yes that's a no brainer dump it down to him. If he's being fronted and/or swarmed vs active teams like BOS is what I'm trying to point at. If Yao could be more effective on the boards he will still have a strong imprint on the game without having to force fed all the time. I do believe it is an area where Yao can improve on but like I said Yao seems very tentative because of foul concerns.

And most coaches would trade a few ppg for higher effeciency and more rebounds (at least in terms if you're trying to win). It's no contest.

[abcdef]

Am I right, or am I right?

[RaoulDuke79]

[TMU]

Yes, compcomp, you're right!