Phil Jackson...Overrated????

[Zubby]

I've always felt that he was incredibly lucky with whom he has gotten to coach, leading him to win all those Championships. Jordan and Shaq were completely unstoppable, led by example and their teams just rode of their spirit.

Now this is the second year in a row where Jackson has had arguably the most talented team and the league and again they are having "motivation" issues. Now instead of looking like a knowledgeable coach when he lets him team play through slumps when he should call a timeout, he looks like a fool sitting on his high chair. Why doesn't he start Farmer or give him more minutes he is obviously the best option at point guard, at least against us, and then the excusing he is making are horrible. I'm sure he is old enough to know, people hate hearing excuses.

Is Phil Jackson ruining his reputation by coming back to coaches these Lakers?

[TMU]

All of the above are true.

[stockmarketgod]

all of the above... but I think the biggest reason...

is the fact of the matter is this LA team isnt to far removed from the crappy team that Kobe wanted to leave a few years back...

[Zubby]

Remember this is a team for the second consecutive year had the highest winning percentage in the western conference and the 2nd highest in the league. I disagree about them not having talent, they have proven they are a good team imo.

[Miller4ever]

They a re a good team, but they have not stepped it up in the playoffs. They matched up well against a scrambling Jazz squad, and then now Houston comes with a test, but the Lakers should not have lost 3 games if they played their best. Not to detract anything from the Rockets, but I think the stronger LA actually is, the more it makes the Rockets' achievement thus far that much greater.

[spolgar]

I think Phil Jackson's greatest claim to fame was coaching star players into leaders. Getting Jordan to mesh with his team mates was Phil Jackson's greatest contribution to the game of basketball. He did the same thing with Shaq. There are excerpts of one of Shaq's books. He doesn't have the nicest things to say about his old team mates, for example. Neither guys were examples of diplomacy. Getting his star players to lead his team mates was always Phil Jackson's shtick. To get Shaq to stop running his mouth and blaming everyone around him for his team's failures is a huge reason as to what got Shaq his rings. Phil Jackson maybe in name an NBA basketball coach, but really he's less of a basketball coach and more as a personal guru.

PJ has surrounded himself with an excellent collection of assistants for his championship teams, e.g. Johnny Bach and Tex Winters. His assistants actually handle the day to day basketball operations and X&Os. Tex Winters is currently in a hospital in Manhattan Kansas from what I believe to be a stroke. I don't know if Bach is still around Jackson, last I heard he was an assistant again with the Bulls at 81.

In Jackson's defence, he has left the motivational part of coaching of the roleplayers to whom what PJ percieves as really the leader of the team, the superstar. He suggests to the superstar on what to do, and the superstar, with his underlings, execute the plan. He requires his superstar to be the floor general, and both Jordan and Shaq had both the personality and the charisma to pull it off. Bryant doesn't. The guy's a love him or hate him guy. Many a player one hears about despise Kobe Bryant after playing with him. Smush Parker is a relatively vocal example, so was Shaq. I keep seeing Von Wafer taking this match up with the Lakers to be something personal, and I could only postulate that Bryant has something to do with it.

It's sad. You see Kobe trying to be encouraging. That documentary that Spike Lee filmed, Bryant exudes a crazy understanding of the game, but he's just never rubbed everyone the right way. Phil Jackson's success with any team, hinges not only with the relationship that the coach has with his roster, but the relationship between the superstars and the roleplayers itself. That's why when ESPN says Phil has lost his touch and it looks like only Kobe and Phil gives a toss on the sidelines, it's really that Kobe is unable to really connect with his team mates to motivate them when he is on the floor. They have the softest frontline in all of the western conference right now, and in the playoffs as oppose to the regular season, a soft frontline will only get one so far. The frontline has to play with more grit, and it's really Kobe that has to get in his team mates faces to get them to show more heart.

The team has also lost a few energy bench players, Bynum is still not healthy and some of their old stand ins, such as Farmar, have actually regressed from last year. To come back from a lesser team and dominate the western conference like they did really shows Kobe to have improved as a leader, but still he is who he is, and the Lakers frontline isn't beating anyone on their own in a 7 game series in the western conference.

So yeah, PJ's not overrated. Having as many rings as Red Auerbach is no fluke.

[chuckerz]

Phil JAckson has the advantage of of coaching teams that had superstars. Any coach would look good if they had the same roster as Jordan's Chicago Bulls era. Or the Shaq and Kobe tandem.

[Zubby]

Yes I agree Phil Jackson gets WAY too much credit. Jordan and Shaq would have won and been just as great with out Jackson. Correct me if im wrong but didn't Shaq say Riley was better than Phil?

Come to think of it this not the first time Jackson couldn't motivate the most talented team in the league to their potential. Remember the 2004 Lakers, Payton Kobe Malone Shaq, they were by far the best team in the league ran through the playoffs and get beat by a physically tough team which played with heart.

Jackson isn't the motivator we all praise him to be.

[cutthroat]

no i dont think hes overated.haters or not bashing or not he has achieved alot.

[moofs]

+1 spolgar
Eh, +5

I think that could be summarized as greathead coach, good to great individual coach, exceptional hands-off manager and delegator.

[Kobe1986]

atleast he keeps beating that coach of urs have fun fishing felllas

[Dagameplaya PnG]

Yes I agree Phil Jackson gets WAY too much credit. Jordan and Shaq would have won and been just as great with out Jackson. Correct me if im wrong but didn't Shaq say Riley was better than Phil?

Come to think of it this not the first time Jackson couldn't motivate the most talented team in the league to their potential. Remember the 2004 Lakers, Payton Kobe Malone Shaq, they were by far the best team in the league ran through the playoffs and get beat by a physically tough team which played with heart.

Jackson isn't the motivator we all praise him to be.

Malone was injured

[ryantp]

I am pretty sure Michael Jordan had a helping hand in winning those 6 Championship and I am not talking about Pippen. Remember the infamous push off on Brian Russell? Now I am no Kobe lover (though I do respect his game) but if he did that, there would be asteriks falling from the sky. But since it's Jordan everybody calls it a "great" push off.

No doubt Jordan was probably the best to ever play the game and no doubt theres no comparison between Kobe and Jordan, but cut the guy some slack. He is still one of the best to ever touch a basketball.

Phil Jackson is a good coach, not a great one. You gotta be atleast good at coaching to win 9 Championships. The cards were delt his way is all.

[spolgar]

Yes I agree Phil Jackson gets WAY too much credit. Jordan and Shaq would have won and been just as great with out Jackson. Correct me if im wrong but didn't Shaq say Riley was better than Phil?

Come to think of it this not the first time Jackson couldn't motivate the most talented team in the league to their potential. Remember the 2004 Lakers, Payton Kobe Malone Shaq, they were by far the best team in the league ran through the playoffs and get beat by a physically tough team which played with heart.

Jackson isn't the motivator we all praise him to be.

I disagree. Jordan would never had won his first championship without the triangle offense and he would've never bought into the ball sharing offense if it weren't for Phil Jackson. The marked difference between the 88-89 Bulls and the 90-91 Bulls are the following:

1) Jordan willing to pass the ball to his team mates. (This will be instrumental for Jordan to get past the Bad Boys Pistons latter, See the wikipedia entry of Jordan Rules).
2) A toughess permeating in the team, with marked improvement in Horace Grant and Pippen's mental endurance. (That's all Phil here)
3) A triple post offence that utilized Bill Cartwright's strengths and minimized his weaknesses. (Tex Winter, Jackson's staff)
4) In the long run, the triple post offense also got Jordan to develop his jumper. This in turn substantially elongated his playing career. (Jordan, in order for the triple post to function, had to create space by operating in the mid-range. His all around game did not come into being until he got comfortable with his mid-range jumper.)
5) The Chicago Bulls were never a strong defensive team until Phil Jackson. Much of that was creditted to Johnny Bach's personal development, but other assistants might be involved.

To say that Phil Jackson would not have won championships without the greatest players of all time under his tutelage is definitely true. However, one thing has to be considered. In the past 20 years, the following teams have won championships (going back to 1989)

Lakers at 99-00, 00-01, 01-02
Spurs at 2002-03 and 04-05 with one nucleus, 98-99 with a different one.
Celtics at 2007-08
Heat at 2005-06
Houston with 93-94 and 94-95
Chicago with 90-91, 91-92, 92-93 and 95-96,96-97,97-98
Pistons with 2003-2004, 1989-1990

On all of those teams, I count at least 2-3 hall of famers. With the exception of the 93-94 and the 2003-2004 pistons, there are at least 1 G.O.A.T candidates for their respective positions on each roster. With the exception of Larry Brown and the Detroit Pistons, every NBA championship had an anchor of one superstar player and one near superstar complimentary lieutenant (Although Chauncey Billups is fast showing the rest of the NBA just how incredibly overlooked he is). You cannot win an NBA championship without being both an extraordinary coach with having extraordinary personal. Larry Brown never had it until coming to a team with 4 All Stars, and Brian Hill never got anywhere with the Magic despite having an extraordinary starting five in 93-94.

As per the counter example, the Lakers at 2001 and 2002 may have been the most fame laden of the teams, but I don't know if they were the most talented squad. Gary Payton was a shadow of what he once was as a man to man defender, having lost more than a step by then. Karl Malone was injured and accused of trying to hit on Kobe's wife right around the time of the playoffs. Shaq already wasn't loving Kobe by then and Kobe just got hit with the charges at Denver. They didn't run through the playoffs at all, having a playoff record of 13-9 and having to go through the Rockets, The Spurs in 6 games and then the Garnet/Sprewell/Cassell Bucks in 6 as well. They did well enough at home, but struggled to play well on the road. Couple that with the laker's bench was less than stellar and Larry Brown is simply the best X&O coach of all time, means that Hack A Shaq was enormously difficult to coach against.

Besides, I don't think you are giving the Pistons enough credit here. They didn't merely "play hard". They had the best X&O coach of all time. Their starting five were not just physically tough, they were the most defensively talented squad in many years. With Ben Wallace at the 5 and Rasheed Wallace at the 4 with Prince at the 3, you had penetration and passing lane defense covered. Hamilton is deceptively strong and had length, and could deny the ball from whomever he was guarding. And Billups was just really really good. They held that Hall of Fame team to 68 points in game 3, and routed them 4-1. This squad was talented as hell and very much underrated.

[NetsForce]

This thread just goes to show you how underrated P-Jax is.