WOJ: Houston exploring Yao Ming trade

[moofs]

All-stars: Jamaal Magloire, Chris Gatling, Tyrone Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Allen Iverson, Eddie Jones

Justification doesn't work too well.

I won't deny that there are a few good players to have won the MIP (mcgrady, kj), but mostly it focuses on increased raw PPG and not much else. My point is that you can't valuate a player by some award or nomination, and that MIP is probably the shakiest award. (Allstar tends to focus on raw PPG, too)

[x-]

Morey will have to trade Brooks sooner or later unless he wants him to pay the $7-11mil some team (most likely the Kings) is going to throw at him.

I'd would guess he'll get sign&traded next summer, since he doesn't have too much value as of right now due the fact he'll be RFA.

[texasholdem]

All-stars: Jamaal Magloire, Chris Gatling, Tyrone Hill, Jerry Stackhouse, Allen Iverson, Eddie Jones

Justification doesn't work too well.

I won't deny that there are a few good players to have won the MIP (mcgrady, kj), but mostly it focuses on increased raw PPG and not much else. My point is that you can't valuate a player by some award or nomination, and that MIP is probably the shakiest award. (Allstar tends to focus on raw PPG, too)

So you are saying McGrady was/is a good player but Iverson was a bad player?

I would take Iverson's career (MVP winner, Finals loss in 6 vs lakers) over T-Mac's.

By the numbers
regular season
Iverson 26.7 ppg, 6.2 apg, 3.7 rpg, 2.2 spg, 41.1 mpg, 42.5%fg 31.3%3fg, 78.0%ft
McGrady 20.9ppg, 4.6 apg, 5.9 rpg, 1.3 spg, 33.9mpg, 43.5%fg, 36.7%3fg, 74.8%ft

playoffs
Iverson 29.7ppg, 6.0apg, 3.8rpg, 2.1spg, 45.1mpg 40.1%fg, 32.7%3fg, 76.4%ft (71 playoff games)
McGrady 28.5 ppg, 6.2apg, 6.9rpg, 1.3spg, 42.2mpg, 43.0%fg, 30.1%3fg, 75.6%ft (38 playoff games)

[Baller 24]

McGrady at peak/prime form rivaled only Kobe Bryant for about 6-7 years, if Bryant is considered significantly better than Iverson, this really shouldn't even be an argument. Aside from one season, Iverson never carried the same impact.

And Moofs is right being an all-star really doesn't carry much weight, and out of the 10 MIP's you've mentioned, only two have had seasons or careers that indicate them as a superstar, and maybe three to four have had the game changing impact. Other than that MIP is really about the expected improvement in production focusing on PPG improvement, doesn't really validate impact much--if at all. This season Kevin Love or Michael Beasley have got it on lock down, even with their atrocious team record.

[texasholdem]

Let's look at their careers from the 2000-01 to 2006-2007 seasons (Tmacs prime)
TMac's MIP season (first season in Orlando) to his 3rd season in Houson before his decline
Iverson's MVP season until he was traded in 2007 to Denver

TMac scored 13,195 points in 491 games played for a 26.8 points per game average
A.I. scored 14,006 points in 473 games played for a 29.6 points per game average

that's almost 3 points more per game for A.I. in the same timespan as Tmac's prime years

TMac got the hype but Iverson had as much impact

Both went the playoffs 5 times in that timespan
Iverson avg. 32.9, 30.0, 31.7, 31.1 and 22.8 in those playoff appearances
TMac avg 33.8, 30.8, 31.7, 30.7 and 25.3 in those playoff apperanaces

[Baller 24]

Let's look at their careers from the 2000-01 to 2006-2007 seasons (Tmacs prime)
TMac's MIP season (first season in Orlando) to his 3rd season in Houson before his decline
Iverson's MVP season until he was traded in 2007 to Denver

TMac scored 13,195 points in 491 games played for a 26.8 points per game average
A.I. scored 14,006 points in 473 games played for a 29.6 points per game average

that's almost 3 points more per game for A.I. in the same timespan as Tmac's prime years

TMac got the hype but Iverson had as much impact

Both went the playoffs 5 times in that timespan
Iverson avg. 32.9, 30.0, 31.7, 31.1 and 22.8 in those playoff appearances
TMac avg 33.8, 30.8, 31.7, 30.7 and 25.3 in those playoff apperanaces

Yes, but again outside of the 2001, you can't argue impact with Iverson, even with solid players assembled around him throughout his time in Philly. While in 2001, it's pretty easy to articulate that the eastern conference from 2001-2003 was at one of it's most weakest points, with Knicks, Heat, and Pacers downfall from the Jordan era.

[texasholdem]

Let's look at their careers from the 2000-01 to 2006-2007 seasons (Tmacs prime)
TMac's MIP season (first season in Orlando) to his 3rd season in Houson before his decline
Iverson's MVP season until he was traded in 2007 to Denver

TMac scored 13,195 points in 491 games played for a 26.8 points per game average
A.I. scored 14,006 points in 473 games played for a 29.6 points per game average

that's almost 3 points more per game for A.I. in the same timespan as Tmac's prime years

TMac got the hype but Iverson had as much impact

Both went the playoffs 5 times in that timespan
Iverson avg. 32.9, 30.0, 31.7, 31.1 and 22.8 in those playoff appearances
TMac avg 33.8, 30.8, 31.7, 30.7 and 25.3 in those playoff apperanaces

Yes, but again outside of the 2001, you can't argue impact with Iverson, even with solid players assembled around him throughout his time in Philly. While in 2001, it's pretty easy to articulate that the eastern conference from 2001-2003 was at one of it's most weakest points, with Knicks, Heat, and Pacers downfall from the Jordan era.

Tmac was in the east from 2001-2003 too.
Keith Van Horn and Mike Miller cancel each other out.
Same with Eric Snow and Darrell Armstrong.
AI had Mutombo for 2 years I'll give yiou that.
It's not AI's or tmac's fault Grant Hill kept getting hurt.
Geneally though the talent level was about equal
and Iverson won 4 playoof series in those 3 years to Tmac's 0

[Baller 24]

Tmac was in the east from 2001-2003 too.
Keith Van Horn and Mike Miller cancel each other out.
Same with Eric Snow and Darrell Armstrong.
AI had Mutombo for 2 years I'll give yiou that.
It's not AI's or tmac's fault Grant Hill kept getting hurt.
Geneally though the talent level was about equal
and Iverson won 4 playoof series in those 3 years to Tmac's 0

This is laughable. You're comparing individual players, rather than comparing a team as a whole. One player can't just cancel out another like we're playing a game of Pokemon. The Sixers in their one year wonder in '01 were coached by one of the greatest coaches of all-time in Larry Brown, Mutombo's defensive impact gave them an overall edge in DRtg, where they were a top 5 defensive team. The Sixers were assembled in a manner to allow Iverson to take 25-30 shot attempts to pile up as many points as possible (very inefficient considering he was only averaging 31 PPG), while the other players were utilized in a defensive setting and played their role to perfection, but ONLY for one season. Once the emergence of Jason Kidd's and Paul Pierce's Celtics came, Iverson's overall team production dropped significantly. Again, Mutombo isn't just a casual player, throughout his tenure there, the Sixers were consistently in the top 5 defensively speaking. Iverson with such a high usage rate only knew how to jack up 25-30 shots a game to try and score as much as possible, while turning the ball over twice as more than the likes of Bryant, Carter, and McGrady, who also ranked in the top for usage percentage.


Again, impact, skill-set, video footage, and statistically evidence suggests only Bryant rivaled McGrady throughout a 6-7 year stretch, Iverson aside from one season never had the same kind of impact. Iverson's surrounding cast was also a lot better structured defensively speaking (Top 5). McGrady in Orlando had a supporting cast that consisted of two average to above average perimeter options, outside of that the front-court was had no primary go-to option. McGrady at peak form was significantly better and attained a much better overall impact than Iverson, again aside from one miracle season where Mutombo's impact gets significantly overlooked (before and after staitstics suggests his impact was possibly ON PAR with Iverson), there really isn't much to argue here so I'll stop derailing the thread. You're using raw statistics to argue your points, which isn't going to get this argument anywhere.

[moofs]

Let's look at their careers from the 2000-01 to 2006-2007 seasons (Tmacs prime)
TMac's MIP season (first season in Orlando) to his 3rd season in Houson before his decline
Iverson's MVP season until he was traded in 2007 to Denver

TMac scored 13,195 points in 491 games played for a 26.8 points per game average
A.I. scored 14,006 points in 473 games played for a 29.6 points per game average

that's almost 3 points more per game for A.I. in the same timespan as Tmac's prime years

TMac got the hype but Iverson had as much impact

Both went the playoffs 5 times in that timespan
Iverson avg. 32.9, 30.0, 31.7, 31.1 and 22.8 in those playoff appearances
TMac avg 33.8, 30.8, 31.7, 30.7 and 25.3 in those playoff apperanaces

Ok, this is a straight-up hilarious post to me. I argue that allstar and MIP are based primarily on raw ppg, so you point out that Iverson scored more than McGrady to show me that Iverson's multiple allstar appearances made him the superior player, which wasnt really even my point.

At its core, basketball is won by having scoring efficiency * possessions that is greater than your opponents'. There are many ways to affect each factor, but net points scored are actually not one of them. In other words, ppg is the dumbest statistic there is in basketball.

P.s. this is a well-known topic at this point, but is far from new - it's how Auerbach valued people. Read up on it some.

[texasholdem]

Ok, this is a straight-up hilarious post to me. I argue that allstar and MIP are based primarily on raw ppg, so you point out that Iverson scored more than McGrady to show me that Iverson's multiple allstar appearances made him the superior player, which wasnt really even my point.
.

That post wasn't in response to you, it was to Baller. who was saying T-Mac's prime years were better than Iverson's, which I disagreed with.

But fine my posts are laughable and hilarious so I'll just stop now.

[moofs]

Heh sorry. I've also been in a bit of a foul mood lately. Seriously though, run through some Auerbach stories, or just think about the math that would result in being a winning team. I want you to get over your raw points fascination.

Iverson won cause his teammates played great defense and rebounded all his stupid shots like FIENDS.

Even if you're efficient and score at a 60% clip, but turn the ball over every other possession, you'd still better outrebound the other team by a significant margin or make the other team turn it over or shoot like crap if you want to win.

[Aaron Brooks]

Kings Plan To Use All Of $20M-$30M In Cap Space

[TMACFORMVP]

Kind of late on the news, but I'm really glad we're at least looking at possibilities. It's hard not to figure that there might be some verbal agreement in place beforehand, but I was under the impression that there was no way we'd even look into trading Yao. I wonder what we can fetch for him though, coupled with his enticing contract, and some of the prospects we have, Morey has some pieces to work with.