Beverly vs. Lin

[BaYBaller]

You make it sound like the Raymond Felton situation in Portland where fans were booing him whenever he touched the ball. Fans in general stick by their players and only really turn on them if they don't give any effort, are out of shape, say dumb things in the media, etc. By all accounts Lin had a decent year, says all the right things, is improving, well liked by the coaching staff and community, and contributed heavily to a team that exceeded pretty much everybody's expectations.

I also doubt Dwight will sign with us, and I also doubt the team views TRob as "last in line." If anything, I think he has the best prospects out of our current PF roster of contributing next year, barring a star FA signing at the position. You seem to be so sure of yourself on things that are at best wild speculation.

[spolgar]

If you looked at them outside of the Rockets context (pretend Beverley and Lin were in the draft), Lin would be rated much higher. However, in the context of the Rockets roster, things are much different.

I'm not sure. There is always a question of fit, and perhaps Lin will get more touches somewhere else. However, much of Lin's sharing of touches on the perimeter with Harden comes from the fact that they have remarkably similar games, with Harden better range and Lin with better defense. Also, Lin and Harden might both be similarly gifted passers, but Lin is easily more willing. That is a different enough look to warrant single coverage per player from the opposing back court. You can't really help off one guy without the other destroying you. It would be difficult to say that about Beverly.

The way I see it, in today's NBA, you can only have one dominant guard per team. If your PG is dominant like Westbrook or Rose, then the SG should be able to be less dominant and play off the ball. This usually isn't a problem since SG are supposed to play off the ball. If your SG is dominant like Kobe, Jordan, or Harden, then the PG needs to be able to be less dominant and be a role player. Guys like Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher. Steve Nash instantly went from 10.7 apg down to 6.7 apg. You simply can't have two star guards, that's why Ellis and Curry didn't work out in GSW, and now that Ellis is gone, Curry exploded.

In the recent past, dominant SGs have had more offensively limited PGs and vice versa, as the offense channels through one player more often, but there are noteworthy exceptions. Jo Jo White did very well playing next to Havlicek. As did Goodrich with Logo. Arenas and Larry Hughes put up close to 50 points just by themselves, as did Richmond and Tim Hardaway in the early 90s. You wouldn't have to look further, in fact, than the Spurs in the past decade. Sure Manu didn't start, but he finished games all the time with Parker and Duncan. Ty Lawson/Andre Miller/Iggy were an interesting back court rotation in closing minutes before the injury bug hit the Nuggets. Curry might have exploded, but he had David Lee's shots and Klay Thompson to help space the floor. When you get to Iverson your offense, your numbers are going to look much better. Just ask Greg Anthony.

Besides, Monta Ellis is just a big a twit. Just recently, he almost came to blows with Larry Sanders in the middle of a playoff game after Sanders implored the team to be less selfish in a half time locker room speech. With a big enough sillyhead such as Jennings as a back court mate, I have no idea why the Bucks management thought this was a good idea.

Beverley fits into the role player PG category well. He's perfectly happy standing at the 3pt line waiting for a kickout. Lin is a terrible fit for that role. So given the Houston's backcourt situation, they're about the same. Actually Beverley is probably better.

If Morey acquired Harden first, there would be no way that he would've acquired Lin. So it makes a lot of sense to trade Lin for a valuable asset in the offseason. Otherwise, it's a waste of skills and money.

Beverly fits well in the current iteration now, as maximizing Harden's offensive output is crucial to our pace. His 10 free throws a gam mean an extra 5 fouls that are shared evenly to those that police the paint, and he softens the front court often before and during the 4th quarter, making it easier for everyone else. The immediate play for efficiency is to let the most efficient scorer on the floor decide where the ball goes, but that doesn't account for improvement of players beyond the immediate present. Also, if all goes to plan, rationally speaking, spacing the floor and giving the ball to Harden might be the most efficient way to go. However, the predictability of an offensive strategy often brings comfort to the opposition. Just look at what Phil Jackson did to Iverson with Tyrone Lue in the 01 finals. Getting team mates to improve their game and maximize their potenial takes reps. Both Lin and Harden need to expand their all around game so they can each give each other different options given who has the ball. The important thing here is that for once, we have two talented back court players who have in the past shown their ability to sublimate their egos for the good of the team. And unlike Arenas and Hughes, they can both play defense, and they are both reasonably sane and stable headed people.

Last but not least, all our scorers seem to be willing to share the spotlight and have already bought in to the game plan and their respective roles. Chemistry is the one thing on the player market that cannot be directly bought, and it is something the Rockets have in abundance. I am not sure why the fans are willing to give that up so easily by swapping out a piece as important as Lin.

[rocketsballin]

i'll read this thread later but LIN > BEV. only thing bev has on lin is defense, and lin's not a bad defender himself. bev is perfect off the bench, not as a starter. lin needs a good pick and roll big or you wont get much out of him.

if any of you read the bev thread on clutchfans, it brought some good points. i wanna see what he can do over a full season.

[moofs]

who's better? why wouldn't we trade Lin at this point?

If you looked at them outside of the Rockets context (pretend Beverley and Lin were in the draft), Lin would be rated much higher. However, in the context of the Rockets roster, things are much different.

The way I see it, in today's NBA, you can only have one dominant guard per team. If your PG is dominant like Westbrook or Rose, then the SG should be able to be less dominant and play off the ball. This usually isn't a problem since SG are supposed to play off the ball. If your SG is dominant like Kobe, Jordan, or Harden, then the PG needs to be able to be less dominant and be a role player. Guys like Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher. Steve Nash instantly went from 10.7 apg down to 6.7 apg. You simply can't have two star guards, that's why Ellis and Curry didn't work out in GSW, and now that Ellis is gone, Curry exploded.

Beverley fits into the role player PG category well. He's perfectly happy standing at the 3pt line waiting for a kickout. Lin is a terrible fit for that role. So given the Houston's backcourt situation, they're about the same. Actually Beverley is probably better.

If Morey acquired Harden first, there would be no way that he would've acquired Lin. So it makes a lot of sense to trade Lin for a valuable asset in the offseason. Otherwise, it's a waste of skills and money.

Very agreed. This has basically been my exact line of thought.

[moofs]

i'll read this thread later but LIN > BEV. only thing bev has on lin is defense, and lin's not a bad defender himself. bev is perfect off the bench, not as a starter. lin needs a good pick and roll big or you wont get much out of him.

if any of you read the bev thread on clutchfans, it brought some good points. i wanna see what he can do over a full season.

Link please?

[moofs]

With a big enough sillyhead such as Jennings as a back court mate, I have no idea why the Bucks management thought this was a good idea.

I'd say Ellis is more of a poopyface than a sillyhead.

[rocketsballin]

i'll read this thread later but LIN > BEV. only thing bev has on lin is defense, and lin's not a bad defender himself. bev is perfect off the bench, not as a starter. lin needs a good pick and roll big or you wont get much out of him.

if any of you read the bev thread on clutchfans, it brought some good points. i wanna see what he can do over a full season.

Link please?

i dont agree with everything. bev is defintely a good defender on and off the ball and can only get better
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=238401

[willywazza]

Lin > Bev

[moofs]

It's the same reason OKC is much worse with Jackson instead of Westbrook despite Jackson's much better scoring efficiency (the efficiency gap there is much wider than Lin-Beverley): Defenses as a whole don't react to Jackson's attacks, therefore easy baskets are few and far in between for the team and the team becomes overly dependent on outside shots falling. That is fine in short spurs, but it's not something you can settle for in long stretches if you are trying to be elite.

I'd say the main reason they were so much worse without Westbrook is because...

With Westbrook:
Westbrook - above average
Jackson - average

Without Westbrook
Jackson - average
Fisher - zombie

...so the REAL dropoff is from Jackson to Fisher.

[inquisitive]

if howard doesn't sign, neither lin or trob will get moved right away, if even...at least lin won't...maybe trob by the trade deadline if the rockets sign milsap or jefferson during offseason.

[adrenaLINe]

who's better? why wouldn't we trade Lin at this point?

If you looked at them outside of the Rockets context (pretend Beverley and Lin were in the draft), Lin would be rated much higher. However, in the context of the Rockets roster, things are much different.

The way I see it, in today's NBA, you can only have one dominant guard per team. If your PG is dominant like Westbrook or Rose, then the SG should be able to be less dominant and play off the ball. This usually isn't a problem since SG are supposed to play off the ball. If your SG is dominant like Kobe, Jordan, or Harden, then the PG needs to be able to be less dominant and be a role player. Guys like Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher. Steve Nash instantly went from 10.7 apg down to 6.7 apg. You simply can't have two star guards, that's why Ellis and Curry didn't work out in GSW, and now that Ellis is gone, Curry exploded.

Beverley fits into the role player PG category well. He's perfectly happy standing at the 3pt line waiting for a kickout. Lin is a terrible fit for that role. So given the Houston's backcourt situation, they're about the same. Actually Beverley is probably better.

If Morey acquired Harden first, there would be no way that he would've acquired Lin. So it makes a lot of sense to trade Lin for a valuable asset in the offseason. Otherwise, it's a waste of skills and money.

Very agreed. This has basically been my exact line of thought.

ill agree Lin needs to be traded, where he can go to a team, and be a ball dominant PG

my only issue is if the Rox management wanted to raise his trade value... they should not have had him spotting up at the 3 point line waiting to take 3s

it is well known spot up 3 point shooting was and still is his weakness,

I thought they we doing what they were doing this year develop Asik and Harden and Lin's weaknesses... for example im pretty sure Hardens TOs must have skyrocketed this year...

in any event, I was fine with Lin doing what it took to get wins even if it ment playing to his weaknesses

the haters were fine with him being relegated to a less ball dominant role... but then hating on him for stinking it up


kind of like Lin was the Reason the Rox lost the OKC series.... but then he is a mediocre to average, role player in their minds

[zapatasblood]

Lin is the better player with more potential but I don't think it is that much or that great. I don't think either are everyday starting Pgs in the NBA but Bev is the better fit. If we trade Lin fine and if we don't trade Lin then whatever I am more worried about the Pf spot, if any of our young 4s are worth keeping and should we try to get Howard(which I do not want). The Pg spot it not all that important right now

[Don Draper]

Why would Bev NOT get the starter spot? Quite a few of us have been saying that our two most obvious upgrade spots are PG and PF, and while Lin's contract is still reasonable, Bev's is super cheap, makes Lin available as trade bait, we're obviously not that attached to him and quite a few people were wanting him gone anyway (an overstatement, in my opinion), moving Lin would free up about 8 million in cap space.
Why wouldn't we trade him and make Bev the starter? While he was average for us, I still think Lin can be well above average in the right system, but the difficulties of deferring to Harden's overlapping, and obviously more effective strengths limit Lin quite a bit.
Seems like it'd be good for both parties to me.

Agreed.

Lin is simply expendable. I think he can still be good in a system where he could be the primary ball handler, but with James Harden and Beverly we have enough playmakers. In the meantime, he should come off the bench. I think he might benefit playing against second units and not overlapping too much time with Harden.

[adrenaLINe]

Lin is the better player with more potential but I don't think it is that much or that great. I don't think either are everyday starting Pgs in the NBA but Bev is the better fit. If we trade Lin fine and if we don't trade Lin then whatever I am more worried about the Pf spot, if any of our young 4s are worth keeping and should we try to get Howard(which I do not want). The Pg spot it not all that important right now

If Lin gets traded ill still watch the Rox to see how Harden develops

into a Kobe/Lebron type player, or a Melo/Howard type player

Rockets get Howard and ill quit watching for sure....

the guy is a cancer...

[chatuka]

Beverly reminds me of a poor man's chris paul.

I'd rather have the size of Lin, speed and strength of Lin too.

Lin is also a better passer, shooter, penetrator.

Defense is also better on Lin because of his size

[chatuka]

If you looked at them outside of the Rockets context (pretend Beverley and Lin were in the draft), Lin would be rated much higher. However, in the context of the Rockets roster, things are much different.

The way I see it, in today's NBA, you can only have one dominant guard per team. If your PG is dominant like Westbrook or Rose, then the SG should be able to be less dominant and play off the ball. This usually isn't a problem since SG are supposed to play off the ball. If your SG is dominant like Kobe, Jordan, or Harden, then the PG needs to be able to be less dominant and be a role player. Guys like Ron Harper, BJ Armstrong, Jordan Farmar, Derek Fisher. Steve Nash instantly went from 10.7 apg down to 6.7 apg. You simply can't have two star guards, that's why Ellis and Curry didn't work out in GSW, and now that Ellis is gone, Curry exploded.

Beverley fits into the role player PG category well. He's perfectly happy standing at the 3pt line waiting for a kickout. Lin is a terrible fit for that role. So given the Houston's backcourt situation, they're about the same. Actually Beverley is probably better.

If Morey acquired Harden first, there would be no way that he would've acquired Lin. So it makes a lot of sense to trade Lin for a valuable asset in the offseason. Otherwise, it's a waste of skills and money.

Very agreed. This has basically been my exact line of thought.

ill agree Lin needs to be traded, where he can go to a team, and be a ball dominant PG

my only issue is if the Rox management wanted to raise his trade value... they should not have had him spotting up at the 3 point line waiting to take 3s

it is well known spot up 3 point shooting was and still is his weakness,

I thought they we doing what they were doing this year develop Asik and Harden and Lin's weaknesses... for example im pretty sure Hardens TOs must have skyrocketed this year...

in any event, I was fine with Lin doing what it took to get wins even if it ment playing to his weaknesses

the haters were fine with him being relegated to a less ball dominant role... but then hating on him for stinking it up


kind of like Lin was the Reason the Rox lost the OKC series.... but then he is a mediocre to average, role player in their minds

I think Lin to the Heat would have been perfect for him. No pressure.. playing with the best players in the world. Lin would make the Heat even more dangerous.. scary thought

[spolgar]

If we are going to trade Lin, let's not bother with obvious places.

New Orleans could stand to get Jeremy Lin for Vasquez and spare parts. We'd get a big point guard immediately who can handle, pass and shoot.

Of course, the contracts don't match, but that doesn't matter. We can float them Asik and get back a few pieces of youth. I think everyone except for Unibrow is on the table. Ryan Anderson can be had as well.

If we get Dwight, this seems like a good next move. This keeps the paint area from being too congested on offense and we have a tall guard to throw the entry pass to feed the big guy.

[moofs]

Hm...!

Beverly/Harden/Parsons/RAnderson/Howard?
Vasquez|Brooks/JAnderson/Delfino/Jones|TRob|Smith off the bench?

That's pretty freaking scary. I like it.
Looks very much like a strongly contending team to me. NO would get better from that trade, too.

[spolgar]

I don't think Beverly is a starting point guard until he gets upgrades from floor 2nd lieutenant to floor colonel. He's Tony Allen Lite right now, which is pretty frigging good as it is.

But if we don't trade, I'm still happy.