The RealGM Stretch 4 Obsession

[Mr. E]

I just don't get it.

You look around this site and it seems like everyone is obsessed with the idea of getting the Rockets a "stretch 4" a.k.a. a Power Forward who can stretch the floor to open up the offense for Dwight. The same few names keep getting tossed around (Ersan Ilyasova, Ryan Anderson, Carlos Boozer, etc.) and acquiring them seems to involve the Rockets seriously overpaying for them in just about every case.

Asik, Lin, Beverley, Jones, Motie - I always see some combo of those names (along with outgoing first round picks) going out in order to bring in some guy like Ersan or Anderson without consideration of contract situation or bench depth.

To me there is not a "need" for a stretch 4 for this team. Especially not at the expense of 48 minutes of elite defensive play (Howard/Asik). Between Harden, Howard, Parsons and Lin there should be no problem with scoring or spacing for this team. Yeah, one of those stretch 4's would be nice, but not if it is going to compromise the flexibility of the team moving forward by giving up too much.

And yes, I think that Asik straight up for any of the constantly mentioned stretch 4's is too much. 48 minutes of elite D at the C trumps a third or fourth offensive option in the starting lineup.

I would much rather roll with what we have now and see if Motie, Jones or Smith can step up to that starter's role. If changes need to be made then address them later. Do not throw away what is now one of the Rockets' top factors (48 minutes of elite D at the C) in a short-sighted move because there is a perceived need for something that they may not actually be in need of!

This is just how I feel about it. I do not like the idea of moving Asik and Lin for anyone who is reasonably available right now. It just seems like a bad move to me.


Thoughts?

[Guy986]

The Rockets played their best last season with 4 shooters and a big. Look no further than the lineups that featured Delfino at the 4 or our playoff lineups with Bev, Harden, Parsons, Garcia, Asik.

Likewise, Dwight Howard's Orlando Magic team performed their best with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, Ryan Anderson at the PF spot. Stan Van Gundy said, probably not an exact quote, that Howard NEEDS a floor spacer next to him.

Its well documented that both Harden and Howard play better when they're surrounded by shooters.

Its only logical to assume that this Rockets team, whose offense last season was so heavily predicated on spacing the floor to maximize efficiency, will find a competent PF with 3 point range at some point to complete its starting lineup.

My opinion is that if Morey could trade 15 mins of Asik for a proven 3 stretch 4 like Ryan Anderson, he would do it. And imo, Asik trade will go down this trade deadline.

If he could trade Lin for Ryan Anderson he would've done it yesterday. Or the day before that.

This team doesn't need a 3rd star. It needs great complimentary role player. Ryan Anderson, sans Kevin Love, is the PERFECT fit for this team.

[KiDdFrESh]

Actually Kevin Love is the perfect fit for this team. That is why i do not believe Morey will trade Asik for a player like Erasan or Rhino.

I think D-Mo and Jones can develop into stretch 4s.

[TMACFORMVP]

I completely agree that I prefer keeping Asik than trading him for just a solid-to-average power forward, but I think a stretch four is critical next to Dwight/Harden. I'm just hoping DMo/TJones could fulfill that role, and/or we likely go small with Parsons or Casspi at the 4.

[TMU]

Motiejunas is our stretch 4. He's the future. Accept it.

[gottamakeit]

Morey should go after Chris Copeland, he would look great next to dwight albeit only for a few stretches of the game.

[Mr. E]

Motiejunas is our stretch 4. He's the future. Accept it.

I support this plan

[Guy986]

Motiejunas is our stretch 4. He's the future. Accept it.

Stretch 4 is only good when he can sink those shots.

I dont have much faith in Dmo's free throw much less his 3pt shot.

[BaYBaller]

D12 + Asik on the floor is going to be a disaster. D12 is going to have fifty bazillion TOs in the post when Asik is with him on the floor. You don't necessarily need a "stretch 4," you can also have an athletic rebounder to punish them on the offensive glass, but Asik is more of a positional rebounder who outmuscles people for rebounds.

I do think having 48 minutes of solid defense from the C position is underrated however, so I'm definitely not in the camp of trading Asik for pennies-on-the-dollar just for "fit" reasons. I think next year the PF spot is going to be T.Jones to lose. At the same time however I would definitely revisit trade scenarios at the trade deadline next year, depending on the team's situation and how desperate other teams are for a defensive C.

[moofs]

You don't necessarily need a "stretch 4," you can also have an athletic rebounder to punish them on the offensive glass, but Asik is more of a positional rebounder who outmuscles people for rebounds

Oh man, I remember this one, hold on... nngggngngnnnnngnffffff



Sorry, been constipated lately. Didn't mean to stink up the place like that.

If there's one thing bad about Morey, it's that the jackass doesn't really leave any good openings to pick apart what he's doing wrong and pontificate on how you'd do it better. The best you can do is guess at what he's going to do, then feel like the relative dumbass you are (those are generic "you"s, btw, and not specifically aimed at bayballer) when he almost always does something better than anything you ever dreamed up. This both takes the some of the fun out of trying to guess, and also reduces the amount of absurd guesses to poke holes in.

Thanks, jerk.
(J/K, D, you're still freaking awesome.)

[inquisitive]

i suspect morey will wait to see how well dmo, tjones, and smith do this season...if they play well i don't see asik being moved for a stretch 4 unless it was an offer that the rox can't turn down....if both play well, that will pump asik's trade value up!

[spolgar]

By trading for a stretch 4, say Ryan Anderson, we give up Asik most definitely. No other league candidate is worth the hassle. In turn, we are optimizing on scoring and assuming that will help us win games the most, rather than rebounding and defense. It worked great for us in the regular season, but in the playoffs, we'll need more than one great post defender if we want to get out of the first round.

Basketball offensive success has a great deal to do with spacing and timing and the role of selecting the right group of players and plays to appropriate the strengths of your star players will falls under management. As the game has progressed faster and smaller, with rules added over time that favor the wing, the more spacing you can get for the wing attack player, the better.

The argument is, for a stretch 4 in a Rockets uniform will give Lin, Parsons, Harden and Howard plenty of room to operate. In particular, it gives Harden, Lin and Parsons a kick out target that is an immediate offensive threat if the pick and roll fails, or it gives them a pick and pop option with Dwight doing board cleanup. It sounds neat on paper and many people think it would be worth trying. We did very well with 4 shooters and Asik in the middle last year. No doubt if Asik is replaced by Dwight, we'd have even better spacing as it would be impossible to go over the pick.

There are about 10 good stretch 4s in the league, and most of them are not attainable. Our only viable target is Ryan Anderson. And our prime trade chip here is Asik. Asik going to the Pelicans for Ryan Anderson makes a lot of sense, especially if we can also get Jeff Withey back for another player. Asik would get a lot of defensive boards as Davis slides to help on defense. Davis and Withey would be a bit redundant, as they are both mobile shot blockers that need to add bulk. The money also fits as well, Asik and Ryan Anderson both count about 8 mill against the cap.

However:

We lose our best proven rebounder.
We lose our best post defender and a pretty decent shot blocker. You seldom can have enough rebounding and post defense.
We lose who was arguably the 2nd best player during our playoff run, no small feat considering he was either covered by Perkins or Ibaka.
We lose someone who has consistently improved every month.

I wouldn't trade Asik for a stretch four. If we match up a particular team, say Oklahoma, and we play both Dwight and Asik, the Rockets might get 50 boards that game, especially if we can get away with playing more zone. (I picked Oklahoma since their zone killer just moved to Minneapolis). This goes double for teams that need their 2nd chance points to win, e.g. Memphis.

We have the best center rotation in the NBA, and I would say we have the best center rotation in the NBA since Yao and Mutombo. We're getting Ronnie Brewer as well, so between Garcia, Parsons, Brooks, Harden and Brewer, we should have lots and lots of reliable shooting. Further more, both our young pfs have range as is. We don't need another stretch four. Our roster is fine. Leave it the hell alone.

[inquisitive]

my concern with anderson is his state of mind....considerably what he witnessed...this season could be a bad one for him.

[texasholdem]

my concern with anderson is his state of mind....considerably what he witnessed...this season could be a bad one for him.

well if it's true that he was cheating on her then he was more than just a witness. I don't want him on this team anymore.

[spolgar]

This encroachment of someone's very very personal business is fast becoming uncomfortable for me.

This is the worst kind of yellow journalism.

[Mr. E]

It's gotten to the point where I cannot even open threads on the T&T board involving the Rockets because it's the same stuff over and over again.

The Asik/Anderson trend may actually eclipse the McGrady/Knicks trade ideas in terms of repetitiveness before all is said and done.

[spolgar]

Being talked about is a by product of being successful in show business. This is just a sign of things to come. We'll have a lot more new blood posting by November.

I remember watching youtube comedians underrated Asik on youtube last summer, especially drawing feigned gasps and moral outrage about his 25 million dollar contract. Now he's the primary trade chip for the 2nd best 3 point shooting power forward in the league? The increase in status must be nice.

[CoachKobe]

it's not a realgm obsession. there are reasons why a stretch 4 makes so much sense nowadays. it's not about the rockets exclusively, it's about the perfect fit for the nba how it is built according to its rules and its style of play. namely perimeter play.
rockets are pretty much one player away from being the best starting 5 in the entire league. guess what it is: a stretch 4.

[spolgar]

it's not a realgm obsession. there are reasons why a stretch 4 makes so much sense nowadays. it's not about the rockets exclusively, it's about the perfect fit for the nba how it is built according to its rules and its style of play. namely perimeter play.
rockets are pretty much one player away from being the best starting 5 in the entire league. guess what it is: a stretch 4.

By your definition, the best starting 5 in the entire league on paper is the Nets. They don't have a 'stretch 4'. They have a triple threat at the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 within 19 feet of the hoop. That's as close to the Pat Riley ideal of 5 6-9 players who can all pass dribble shoot and rebound. You can run whatever offense you want with that team so long as it is not transition heavy, you don't have to hide anyone on defense, there's at least 2 post offensive threats and 2 perimeter threats against any match up with their starting lineup, and save for Memphis, they match up about as well as anyone in the league assuming collectively, so long as the Nets didn't leave their jumper at home.

But that is clearly not true. They are a competent small team away from an upset. I also suspect besides Memphis, the Spurs and the Heat, well let's be fair, Lebron James, would give them fits. It only takes one glaring mismatch to collapse a defense time and time again, and at least a few teams will be able to look at the Nets roster and have the necessary persons to make a competent game plan happen.

Further more, there are only so many competent stretch 4s in the game. There are even fewer competent two way stretch fours in the game. In fact, come to think of it, there is no way I can safely say that getting a stretch 4 (Unless said stretch 4 is again, Lebron James) would yield me a similar points differential, i.e. I'd get more points forced by the rockets with a stretch 4 probably, but then I would give up more points on my defense because I'd lose a guy who will chang shots and prevent second chance points. I think we getting a stretch four and giving up Asik creates as many problems as it solves.

With a stretch 4, we match up better with Golden State, New Orleans (assuming we don't take their stretch four), Dallas, Portland. With Asik at the 5 and Dwight at the 4, I feel pretty good against both the LA teams, Memphis, San Antonio, Minnesota, Oklahoma and most importantly, Utah .

Finally, let's be honest here. This is no a diss against Coach Mchale, but a general statement about how organizations are percieved and how sometimes management ties into ratings. If Mchale left the Rockets organization and we got Phil Jackson or Popovich to coach, Stephen Scream-A Smith will say our team is the team to beat now. Skip Bayless would agree with him. Despite this being a players league, that coaching only goes so far, the talking heads in main stream media would only then, collectively, change their minds. They would finally admit what real fans of this team have known all along.

We have the best roster in the country already. Now it's all about execution, discipline and getting the other team to play within our game plan by taking away their options while magnifying ours.

P.S. This is not directed at anyone in particular. I get a bit of a kick out of fans of other teams suddenly chime in how our roster should go when before Harden's acquisition, both high risk signings were panned collectively by the majority of NBA fans, that we had a team of mostly power forwards until August 2012 worried everybody who liked Houston basketball, and garnered nothing but jeers from others. Now that we're winning, and because of Morey's strategy of acquiring assets, we've been able to align ourselves to the new CBA quicker than most other teams. We're frigging stacked. Now people wanna feel safe, root for somebody popular and chime in on a process that they have never been part of, but enjoyed jeering at before the results came into fruition. It's funny. I am at odds with sitting on my hands laughing at this, and buying stocks in Li Ning. I am pretty confident in knowing now that eventually many Americans will ditch Nikes if this Chinese apparel company sponsors the right combination of stars, as Americans often seek maximum return for their time and attention, even if it is to the detriment of everything else. It would be much akin to the working class switching from cars of the big 3 to Toyota and Honda during the 70s energy crisis, even if it meant putting their neighbors out of a job eventually.

[x-]

This team doesn't need a 3rd star. It needs great complimentary role player. Ryan Anderson, sans Kevin Love, is the PERFECT fit for this team.

I usually agree with you on pretty much anything, but I couldn't disagree more on this one.

If I could choose any player to play PF for this team Anderson might not be in the top-15.

In no particular order: LeBron, Durant, Love, Bosh, LMA, Horford, Dirk, Duncan, Ilyasova, Tobias Harris, Gallinari, Josh Smith, Melo, Jeff Green, Millsap, Royce White ... ok maybe not Royce White.

Granted, some (perhaps most) of these aren't even remotely close to being realistic options and Anderson does have his qualities. He's a really good shooter. He obviously stretches the floor.
That said, if you stay disciplined and play him tight, he gives you pretty much nothing aside from that couple of extra steps of space for his team mates.
Anderson is a chucker, so he'll bomb away even when not really open. If he does not shot, he presents no threat to drive, he doesn't set very good screens and he can't take advantage of smaller/slighter guys in the post, which is why many teams have starting putting their SFs on Anderson. He's just so limited. He doesn't have great feel for the game, kinda plays robotic. Very limited passer. His decision making is suspect. Average rebounder, a negative on D.

The Rockets actually are one of the teams that played Anderson really well last year. Well prepared. Didn't fall asleep. Didn't over-help to leave Anderson. The result: 14.3 Pts on 13.5 FGA (38.9% FG, 14.8% 3s) in 30 min/G in 4 games.

Sounds familiar? Maybe not. Let me fill you in:

Anderson's playoff averages:

Season G GS MP FG FGA FG% 3P 3PA 3P% FT FTA FT% ORB DRB TRB AST STL BLK TOV PF PTS
2009-10 9 0 9.9 1.0 3.2 .310 0.4 1.6 .286 0.1 0.1 1.000 0.9 2.6 3.4 0.3 0.2 0.2 0.6 1.3 2.6
2010-11 6 0 24.5 1.3 5.0 .267 1.0 3.3 .300 1.0 1.0 1.000 1.7 2.8 4.5 0.5 0.8 0.2 0.2 2.7 4.7
2011-12 5 5 34.4 3.0 8.8 .341 2.4 6.0 .400 1.2 1.4 .857 1.8 2.8 4.6 0.8 0.6 0.4 1.8 4.4 9.6
Career 20 5 20.4 1.6 5.2 .311 1.1 3.2 .344 0.7 0.7 .929 1.4 2.7 4.1 0.5 0.5 0.3 0.8 2.5 5.0

Season PER TS% eFG% ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% ORtg DRtg OWS DWS WS WS/48
2009-10 8.5 .391 .379 11.6 31.1 21.7 5.8 1.2 1.8 14.5 19.1 86 97 -0.1 0.2 0.1 .043
2010-11 8.3 .429 .367 8.0 13.9 10.9 3.5 1.9 0.5 3.0 10.9 109 101 0.1 0.2 0.4 .119
2011-12 7.1 .510 .477 5.9 9.5 7.7 4.3 1.0 0.9 16.0 16.0 95 110 0.0 0.0 0.0 .010
Career 7.8 .453 .417 7.9 15.8 11.9 4.3 1.4 1.0 12.1 14.8 96 104 0.0 0.5 0.5 .056

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... nced::none

That's just not very good... at all.

When Anderson is playing teams that don't really game-plan for him, he's very solid. If/once teams specially prepare for Anderson however, his limitations become very apparent.

Say no to Ryan Anderson.