Finally in response to: "JVG Doesn't Play Rookies"

[moofs]

In a way, this doesn't deserve its own thread. In another way, I'd very much like to put this attitude to rest - it's completely incorrect, and well past time to move on from it.

Not to hate on JVG, but our rookies wouldn't be playing well AT ALL, (they wouldn't get any PT, except for MAYBE Scola), and Hayes and Alston would both be playing around 30 minutes, with MJ the backup and Bonzi, Brooks, Landry, and Novak clicking their heels. Mutombo would also be getting serious minutes.

Adelman's style will work out better for us in the long run, methinks.

Max gave a good comment to this

stop hating on JVG
he will play the rookies if they played good
VSpan absolutely suck
Scola is getting limited min early in the season also
while Brooks and Landry are seeing none
nothing workout and we are losing
Adelman just trying to put all possible combination out there
just turnout our rookies played the best

There's been no denying that for a while, Landry, Scola, and Brooks [were/have been] defensive liabilities. I would imagine that he was taking the time to
- Try out the veterans we acquired to see how they worked
- Let them pick up offensive ropes in the NBA better
- (most important) Let them pick up some defensive tricks and strategies so they don't make a Novak out of themselves.

There were exactly FOUR rookies JVG had during his time (we traded away all our picks, remember?): VSpan (sucked. bad.), Novak ("matador defense" would be glowing praise, and when he got in last year he never did anything offensively - hence no PT), Snyder (not a rookie, but dumber than one. he didn't make it on two other teams either, and one of them was a rebuilding team made out of SCRUBS, if that tells you anything), Head (who played), and Luis Flores (WHO? WHAT?). I'm not counting or going into the topic of Rudy Gay because he simply didn't play for us.

Check our draft history since 2004. That's. It. I'm not going to look back at JVG's entire coaching history right now, but I feel pretty safe in saying that he's probably played worthwhile rookies and second years heavy minutes before. Charlie Ward perhaps. All the same, that attitude has surfaced because of his Rockets tenure, and as far as we're concerned, it is completely without merit. If anyone would like to make a good, serious argument that he should have played any of those 4 rookies in spite of what he'd seen in preseason, camps, and practice, go right ahead and try.

As I've pointed out before though, the coach sees a lot more than we do, and doesn't HAVE to see them play in a game to have a pretty good idea whether they can perform adequately or not.

[Amel]

move from what?

we moved on, we have a new coach? whats there not to understand?

Adelman is totally different than JVG...the guys who still deny that JVG was one of the biggest problems of our team structure the past 4-5 seasons are like HDDVD fans against Bluray....they spread FUD everywhere even tho the HDDVD format is clearly a dying format...

stop pretending JVG would play the rookies if they played well, that is absolutely not true....everyone on this team is playing because of the Adelman rotation, not because the rookies improved dramasticly,

and please take out Scola, Scola is no rookie, he played pro basketball for more than 6 years

[BaYBaller]

Most vet coaches generally don't give rookies much time simply because rookies generally aren't good.

Adelman is more offense oriented and thus he will probably tend to play rookies more because they are generally more polished offensively than defensively when they come into the NBA. Everybody has to (re)learn defense at the NBA level.

JVG however is more defense oriented as I'm sure everybody knows, and thus I believe that is the main reason he doesn't seem to play rookies much. If I were to take a stab at what JVG's rotation would look like at this point in the season I would imagine that he's still playing Alston ~40 mins with James as back-up, Hayes would start every game, Scola would have reduced mins, Deke would have all the backup C mins, and Landry, Brooks, and Novak would only get garbage time.

As an example I do not believe JVG would have put Scola in the starting line-up if he coached the Warriors game. JVG had the philosophy that teams should matchup to them and not the other way around. Of course the league is changing now and we don't have the roster to make everybody adjust to us.

[moofs]

move from what?

we moved on, we have a new coach? whats there not to understand?

and please take out Scola, Scola is no rookie, he played pro basketball for more than 6 years

Move on from the notion that if JVG was still coaching here, we would not be seeing the three rooks getting any PT. I have moved on. This topic was in response to the fact that there are still a lot of people here who bring that up fairly frequently in response to conversations about our rookies. If no one else brings it up, I won't.

As for Scola, he's still an NBA rookie and has had some rookie issues. Ginobli had issues his rookie season at 24/25 as well. The difference is that because of their prior professional experience, they are able to step past them faster, but there is still an adjustment period.

Let me rephrase part of my original post like this, if Head got PT as a rookie, whether it be because we were shorthanded or not, and Brooks and Landry are both relatively better than Head (especially when compared to Head's equivalent career stage), why would they not have received PT? Landry might have taken longer to bust into the rotation with Hayes and Scola, but with only Francis and James backing Alston at point, Brooks would have found his way into the rotation this season regardless. James and Francis produced the same type of shorthanded effect for this team that got Luther PT in his first year.

I simply get sick of people saying that all the time because they didn't like Van Gundy and feel like talking out their ears. There is no merit or evidence behind it whatsoever. The evidence we have with our team actually points to the contrary, as Head DID manage to get into the rotation in spite of his considerable drawbacks, particularly on defense. This attitude was picked up right around the time we were floundering last year and not putting in VSpan, Novak, and Snyder. Those 3 were used as the lone pieces of evidence. The attitude was gradually adopted by people that didn't like the coach. Then it eventually stuck as a mindset.

stop pretending JVG would play the rookies if they played well, that is absolutely not true....everyone on this team is playing because of the Adelman rotation, not because the rookies improved dramasticly,

I watched all the rookies play in preseason. Every game. They all acquitted themselves very nicely and demonstrated that they WERE going to be making a good mark on this team. "When" is a valid question that would depend on the coach and the situations, but I can assure you that regardless of coach, any coach in the NBA (default disclaimer of "save perhaps for Isaiah". Yes, in spite of his draft history), all three of these guys would have been playing by the last third of the season, and almost certainly by the midpoint. You can sit here now and say easily "well Adelman is more offensive minded and won't mind the defensive mistakes and that's why he played them" but that's pulled out your ear just as much as anything else. Adelman didn't play Landry, Novak, and Brooks for a long time, I'd wager he's still not really playing Novak, and up until about 2-3 weeks ago, a large number of people here were complaining about Adelman not playing the rookies and demanding that he be fired as well.

What I'm doing is pointing frantically at the big damn picture. Talent is talent. Just because they say it on ESPN doesn't mean that the only reason a rookie isn't playing is because he's a rookie.

I'll move on when everyone else does, and until then I'll point out that you're making completely unbackable statements that you're pulling out of thin air to support the fact that you didn't like our last coach.

Finally, as for Novak, his minor 1 quarter outburst aside, he still needs to be getting only garbage time until he improves more.

Scola would have reduced mins

As a pretty good defender, and especially given Deke's drastic production decline this year (NOT due to reduced playing time, he just almost completely lost his ability to reliably contribute), Scola might have been seeing more minutes (although I have suspicions he might not have seen as many initially).

[compucomp]

move from what?

we moved on, we have a new coach? whats there not to understand?

Adelman is totally different than JVG...the guys who still deny that JVG was one of the biggest problems of our team structure the past 4-5 seasons are like HDDVD fans against Bluray....they spread FUD everywhere even tho the HDDVD format is clearly a dying format...

stop pretending JVG would play the rookies if they played well, that is absolutely not true....everyone on this team is playing because of the Adelman rotation, not because the rookies improved dramasticly,

and please take out Scola, Scola is no rookie, he played pro basketball for more than 6 years

Hayes and Luther Head got more minutes than they could handle as rookies.

At least JVG didn't have the (Please Use More Appropriate Word) idea of putting Yao in the high post. Adelman has seen the error of his ways and this month put Yao back in the low post, and not surprisingly Yao is putting up Player of the Month caliber numbers. Adelman was guilty of trying to ruin the franchise center. JVG was "ruining" some crappy scrubs who sucked anyway and/or didn't give a ****. I'll take JVG over Adelman any day.

Oh by the way Spanoulis is a sack of garbage and not worthy of his NBA roster spot last year.

[Amel]

Oh ok....

I missunderstood your message

I agree with you

sorry about that bro

[compucomp]

Oh by the way, on the subject of Adelman and young players, you neglected the 800 pound gorilla that Kings fans hate Adelman for.... GERALD WALLACE.

[BaYBaller]

No coach in the NBA doesn't play rookies just because they are rookies. All coaches want to win every game possible because it reflects on their careers. The only time it's different is when management forces them to play rookies to develop them for the future (SEA).

There is no doubt in my mind that Brooks would not be playing (and probably not even drafted) barring severe injuries if JVG was coach. James would be back-up PG he is an above average defender at his position.

Landry could've worked himself in some limited PT, but not a rotation regular. Landry is the hustling rebounder that JVG would give some serious consideration even though Landry's post defense wouldn't satisty JVG.

Scola would've been a rotation regular for sure, he's our PF version of Battier (and besides there isn't any depth in the frontcourt regardless).

Novak would be out of the rotation (I agree with moofs, Novak isn't in Adelman's rotation right now regardless), but I do know that JVG never would have run a play for Novak on the first play he subbed him. Never. But that's kind of how you have to use Novak because you know he's going to be a liability on the defensive end so you have to establish him on the offensive end immediately.

And I'm not so sure Deke has declined dramatically. The times I've seen him play this season he's looked fine, however TBH the sample size is way to small to argue one way or the other.

JVG liked that consistency which is why he rarely changed his starting line-ups. That has its benefits (TOs, team defense, etc.) as well as its disadvantages (trying to match-up with Phx, GS, etc.). I liked JVG while he was here but if you take a step back and look at it I think everybody could see that it was just time to move on. The time is ticking on the T-Mac/Yao window and this team was in dire need of a change.

[moofs]

Hayes and Luther Head got more minutes than they could handle as rookies.

How in the world did I forget Hayes?

[grond]

Oh by the way, on the subject of Adelman and young players, you neglected the 800 pound gorilla that Kings fans hate Adelman for.... GERALD WALLACE.

There were no minutes for Wallace at that time. They had Turk (a rookie himself that did see significant minutes) and Bobby Jax in front of him off the bench in the swingman positions (Peja/Christie starters). Plus, he did see time if either were injured. And don't forget he worked in a rookie Peja quite nicely into that Kings squad.

On the subject as a whole, I'd would say that as a head coach JVG does indeed prefer vets to new players, be they rookies or simply younger players. And yes, he can be incredibly stubborn about it too. When the Knicks traded Oak to the raptors for Camby he was so pissed that they'd traded a vet for a young guy he refused to play Camby for bloody ages as some sort of protest/effort to get the GM fired. All the while the team was losing games, sinking to the playoff edge and scraping in as the 8th seed.

Oh, and I quite like Gundy btw - but the man is very stubborn.

[compucomp]

-= original quote snipped =-



There were no minutes for Wallace at that time. They had Turk (a rookie himself that did see significant minutes) and Bobby Jax in front of him off the bench in the swingman positions (Peja/Christie starters). Plus, he did see time if either were injured. And don't forget he worked in a rookie Peja quite nicely into that Kings squad.

On the subject as a whole, I'd would say that as a head coach JVG does indeed prefer vets to new players, be they rookies or simply younger players. And yes, he can be incredibly stubborn about it too. When the Knicks traded Oak to the raptors for Camby he was so pissed that they'd traded a vet for a young guy he refused to play Camby for bloody ages as some sort of protest/effort to get the GM fired. All the while the team was losing games, sinking to the playoff edge and scraping in as the 8th seed.

Oh, and I quite like Gundy btw - but the man is very stubborn.

The thing is Wallace is now an All-Star caliber player and the Kings just let him go in the expansion draft. Why didn't Adelman find time for him? Doesn't Portland wish it didn't trade Jermaine O'Neal for Dale Davis, even though Sheed and Sabonis were firmly ahead of Jermaine? If a guy is that good, you find time for him. It turns out that Larry Brown was right to keep Darko rooted to the bench.

The rookie "prospects" that JVG supposedly ruined are not very good anyway, most are out of the league, unlike Gerald Wallace. Marcus Camby ended up getting plenty of PT and was key in their run to the finals. Adelman managed to let Gerald Wallace simply slip through his fingers, when right now he could be their Bonzi and Artest rolled into one.

[King Roosk]

-= original quote snipped =-



There were no minutes for Wallace at that time. They had Turk (a rookie himself that did see significant minutes) and Bobby Jax in front of him off the bench in the swingman positions (Peja/Christie starters). Plus, he did see time if either were injured. And don't forget he worked in a rookie Peja quite nicely into that Kings squad.

On the subject as a whole, I'd would say that as a head coach JVG does indeed prefer vets to new players, be they rookies or simply younger players. And yes, he can be incredibly stubborn about it too. When the Knicks traded Oak to the raptors for Camby he was so pissed that they'd traded a vet for a young guy he refused to play Camby for bloody ages as some sort of protest/effort to get the GM fired. All the while the team was losing games, sinking to the playoff edge and scraping in as the 8th seed.

Oh, and I quite like Gundy btw - but the man is very stubborn.

Not to mention, that Kings team didn't need a young Gerald Wallace. They were one unlucky bounce away from going to the NBA Finals (where they more than likely would have handled Iverson's 76ers).

With JVG, the rookies that had talent got PT...plain and simple. We needed Luther and Chuck's contributions. So when JVG gave them a chance to play, they produced, and he kept them in the rotation. V-Span got his chance too, but he didn't show too much promise in the minutes given to him (poor outside shooting and turnover prone).

Is everybody forgetting that the only reason Landry and Brooks are playing is because our veterans were not getting the job done? Hell, Adelman sent Brooks and Landry to the D-league at one point. We needed youth and athleticism, and Mike James/Steve Francis were not the answer. As a result, Brooks and Landry got chances. They've produced and they've stayed in the lineup.

If the rookies JVG played had contributed as much and as quickly (as Brooks/Landry), but JVG still didn't increase their PT then it'd be a different argument. However, that's not the case so I don't really see what the fuss is about.

[grond]

-= original quote snipped =-
The thing is Wallace is now an All-Star caliber player and the Kings just let him go in the expansion draft. Why didn't Adelman find time for him?

For the reasons I listed above and also what Roosk said. They were stocked at the swing position and were a championship contender already.

Also, this is beside the point, which is: You can't use the Gerald Wallace example as a knock on Adelman developing young players when the 2 of the players that were keeping him on the bench (Peja & Hedo) were young developing players themselves, receiving plenty of PT.

-= original quote snipped =-
Marcus Camby ended up getting plenty of PT and was key in their run to the finals.

Yes he did, and yes he was (eventually). Which only proves however that Gundy is merely stubborn, and not stupid.

Anyway, the entire 'playing rookies' argument is really a subset of the more general 'who is the more flexible coach' argument. On that score, I give the slight edge to Adleman (took him way too long to begin starting Scola tho! )

[MaxRider]

JVG did play VSpan and Snyder early in the season
Snyder actually played pretty good until he broke his hand
then he's just having hard time making back to the rotation
VSpan however showed some flashes
but he can't stay out of turnover
sure he's not a shooter but JVG ask him to be the shooter
if you are a good basketball player you should know better and drive in instead of shooting an air ball

[moofs]

However, that's not the case so I don't really see what the fuss is about.

Me either, that's half the point of this thread. The other half is that even if they still see a reason to fuss in the face of that (I don't know or care how), it'd be nice if certain people here stopped throwing it around all the time like some etched-in-stone fact.

I almost went into some of the reasons they might want to do that yesterday but managed to bite my tongue

Anyway, the entire 'playing rookies' argument is really a subset of the more general 'who is the more flexible coach' argument. On that score, I give the slight edge to Adleman

Ah, now THAT is perfectly legit and agreeable

FYI for a lot of the people this whole article is aimed toward: words and phrasings are important. If you manage to learn that, it will help you a lot. (I'm still working on it myself)

[Lakers_4_Life]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OFJfbQDNwM8

That video pretty much proves the myth is that Spanoulis showed nothing to earn playing time. Brooks and Scola have not shown that much upside at all and yet were allowed to play through foul problems, poor defense, and turnovers.

If you think JVG would have been playing these 3 rookies this much you are someone who never actually watched him coach or is just trying to sir up crap.

Or let me guess what happened in that video never happened right? Sure showed nothing at all to ever get in a game. If JVG was still the coach Landry may already be demanding a trade. Seriously get real.

[King Roosk]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OFJfbQDNwM8

That video pretty much proves the myth is that Spanoulis showed nothing to earn playing time. Brooks and Scola have not shown that much upside at all and yet were allowed to play through foul problems, poor defense, and turnovers.

If you think JVG would have been playing these 3 rookies this much you are someone who never actually watched him coach or is just trying to sir up crap.

Or let me guess what happened in that video never happened right? Sure showed nothing at all to ever get in a game. If JVG was still the coach Landry may already be demanding a trade. Seriously get real.

What occurred in that video did happen...IN EUROPE. If it happened in the NBA then MAYBE you'd have a case, but unfortunately you have nothing.

And I think I speak for a majority of the board when I say, YOU get real. We're tired of you telling us V-Span is the next best thing in basketball because, frankly bro, he's not.

So SERIOUSLY, stop the V-Span lovefest because we've moved, on we don't care, and it's not pertinent to anything we're currently discussing.

[Lakers_4_Life]

-= original quote snipped =-



What occurred in that video did happen...IN EUROPE. If it happened in the NBA then MAYBE you'd have a case, but unfortunately you have nothing.

And I think I speak for a majority of the board when I say, YOU get real. We're tired of you telling us V-Span is the next best thing in basketball because, frankly bro, he's not.

So SERIOUSLY, stop the V-Span lovefest because we've moved, on we don't care, and it's not pertinent to anything we're currently discussing.

Apparently you didn't even watch the video. At least 5 minutes of NBA clips or let me guess you stopped watching 2 seconds into the video. You didn't even make it to the second clip where NBA clips started? The video alternated international with NBA clips on a 1 by 1............first clip international, next NBA, next international, next NBA all the way for 10 minutes so 5 minutes of NBA clips.

And believe me the video PROVES Spanoulis showed a lot of ability and potential and would have gotten PT pretty much under any other coach if you actually looked at the clip which you did not.

And 2 of the international clips are definitely of NBA significance. A crazy jumper over Pao Gasol (last time I checked he plays in the NBA and averages 19 and 9) and near the end of the video an insane cross over dribble that made Tony parker FALL DOWN on his butt and last time I checked he plays in the NBA was the 2007 Finals MVP. So yeah apparently those don't count either somehow they magically become crap players when they put on a Spanish or French team uniform then again become magically good when they put on an NBA uniform. Seriously, that's the worst Parker has ever been abused in his whole career and Spanoulis did it to him.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=OFJfbQDNwM8

Bottom line Rockets fans can keep on their nonsense with Spanoulis all they want but the video evidence is starting to pop up on youtube and there is zero doubt he will be back in the NBA and the Rockets will regret it. ESPN's top Euro scout saw Spanoulis play against Spain and said the Spurs would rue the day they let him get away he was so blown away but what he saw. And in Greece the Heat have been really pushing him to sign with them for next year to start for them. I guess JVG knows much more than Pat Riley does.

[jove9]

So the Heat are trying to sign you, huh, V-Span? Good for you.

There's no doubt that you know how to play the game, but seriously, dude. You toot your own horn more than any other player. I mean, you don't see T-Mac posting videos of himself to counter all the arguments that he's lost a step, and he definitely doesn't troll the Magic board (that I know of).

So why do you always show up here telling us how great you are? Ok, you're a good player. Wonderful. Can we move on now?

Why don't you go hang out on the Heat board to let them know what you'll bring to the team next year?

[King Roosk]

So the Heat are trying to sign you, huh, V-Span? Good for you.

There's no doubt that you know how to play the game, but seriously, dude. You toot your own horn more than any other player. I mean, you don't see T-Mac posting videos of himself to counter all the arguments that he's lost a step, and he definitely doesn't troll the Magic board (that I know of).

So why do you always show up here telling us how great you are? Ok, you're a good player. Wonderful. Can we move on now?

Why don't you go hang out on the Heat board to let them know what you'll bring to the team next year?

AGREED.

V-Span made a jumper over Pau Gasol! V-Span crossed over Tony Parker!

NOBODY CARES ANYMORE.

Moving on...