RealGM

While I admit this all sucks, and think McGrady's not the sharpest knife in the dishwasher, 2 words:

Francis, Mobley.

Had we not traded them and Cato's bad contract, we'd still have both of them on the books. We got back Juwan Howard, who eventually turned into Ron Artest (Howard->James->+Bonzi->Jackson->Artest) and Tyronn Lue, who turned into Jon Barry (who was very enjoyable for a half season before getting old).

Of those of you who are lamenting that we ever got quitterman, and the count is racking up, how many of you can earnestly say that you'd rathered have ONLY Francis and Mobley eating 27 million up to THIS YEAR than Artest and McGrady (a hair under 30mil combined), McGrady having been genuinely awesome for one year, very good for 2, pretty good for another, and then whatever you want to call the last 6 months? The downside cost? Pretty much just this year and maybe next year. He's still been better this season than Francis was 3 or 4 years ago (a sad statement).

For those of you wishing we'd traded him sooner, when in the last 2 years would that have been possible? "Hey buddy, you want this guy? He's injured all the time, and on the books for a sweet tidy little 60 mil over 3 years, he's become gunshy about driving to the rim because of his injuries and often doesn't for weeks at a time, but when he's at 80% or so he can still be reasonably effective." or "You can have this franchise guy who can't play at that level anymore and was kinda overpaid to begin with. He's gonna cost you short term, but he might recover at any time and he'll be great trade bait after 2008-09" (re: "You can keep your problem, buddy.")

Yeeaaaaah.
(That said, I still don't like how he handled this, but it's hard to vilify him for being dumb)

p.s. Main point in all this? I just really hate rampant b**ching

There's too much logic, partial order, and equivalence relation in this thread.
I'll pass.

I'm happy we got T-Mac instead of Francis and Mobley. Those two ballhoggers are taking shots away from Yao.

T-Mac United wrote:There's too much logic, partial order, and equivalence relation in this thread.
I'll pass.

What's "partial order" and "equivalence relation"?

you are right, i can't even imagine how angry i would have been if francis was still running our offense lol. honestly, i just think if we don't make a major trade, we should all stop the hate and just support our rockets till the end..nothing else we could do lol! yao can be pretty dominant for a few more years--we should take advantage of that as much as we can without making any dumb decisions. If it works and we win a chamipionship then GREAT if not..then hope we can rebuild in a few years! but yea makes me feel better that atleast we don't have francis right now.

T-Mac trade atleast gave us hope. With Francis and Mobley I do not think Yao would have improved this much

moofs wrote:

T-Mac United wrote:There's too much logic, partial order, and equivalence relation in this thread.
I'll pass.

What's "partial order" and "equivalence relation"?

Equivalence relation is the = relation between elements of any set.
(Howard->James->+Bonzi->Jackson->Artest) In this case, the NBA is the set.

Partial order is a more complicated form of ≤, <, ≥, > that involves sets.
(McGrady package vs. Francis package) In this case, each package is a set.

I used those terms as exaggerations.

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EDIT: This is a good post. I can't believe that there are people who think it was a bad deal.

Two things.

JVG said it best. When a Tracy McGrady is out there you have to go get him. He was coming off leading the league in scoring. Had put up 32ppg the previous year the highest total in 10 years in the NBA at the time. So the Rockets made the right decision.

One thing that could have been handled better was who the Rockets got. Instead of Juwan they should have insisted on Gooden. That was a big mistake on Houston's part. From there the Magic completely rebuilt and completed that process last off season. See McGrady wasn't the issue in Orlando...he was part of it but not all of it. You can tell that by the moves the Magic made over the next few years.

The Rockets though never drafted well. And they never addressed the weakest but most vital position on the floor in that of the PG. Yao and McGrady could have played more games together but I think what we saw in the Utah series was a team that just wasn't good enough. Yao wasn't good enough and McGrady wasn't great when he needed to be great. Until that series we didn't really know how good this thing would be. We knew afterwards that it wasn't good enough. So the Rockets made the right move in getting McGrady....but unfortunately because of injuries they didn't early enough what this team lacked. Probably would have found out in 06 and not 07 but everyone pretty much was injured in 06...the year we got the 6th pick.

No one is complaining about trading for McGrady.

I agree Iggy but to even discuss tmac in the utah series in a negative way is just wrong. Battier was absolutely horrible that series and your talking about a guy who played on team USA. Luther head couldnt buy a bucket and raefor was pretty inconsistent. On top of that Yao got completely owned when he covered Boozer i mean it wasj ust embarassing.

You cant be "great" when your role players dont knock down shots bottom line. I cant blame Mcgrady for anything hes done in the playoffs, but yes his body is prone to injury and his intensity and effort during the regular season can definately be questioned throughout his career.

Bottom line is i feel the organization should have realized awhile ago that the Yao Tmac combo was not effective enough. One of those guys should have been moved prior to this years experiment of "IF everyones healthy for the playoffs will be contenders". Not knowing if Yao or Tmac is playing kills chemistry, having one star thats injury prone is fine but two is too risky

T-Mac United wrote:Equivalence relation is the = relation between elements of any set.
(Howard->James->+Bonzi->Jackson->Artest) In this case, the NBA is the set.

Partial order is a more complicated form of ≤, <, ≥, > that involves sets.
(McGrady package vs. Francis package) In this case, each package is a set.

EDIT: This is a good post. I can't believe that there are people who think it was a bad deal.

Ah, in other words, I knew what they were but not the terms

Yeah, blows my mind. I have friends who think that, and several people on this board have stated it recently (ok, that part doesn't blow my mind since some of them have also said they would like him maimed or killed - i.e. not so um, sane?)

Iggyemu wrote:One thing that could have been handled better was who the Rockets got. Instead of Juwan they should have insisted on Gooden. That was a big mistake on Houston's part.

The thing is, as you said, when players like Tracy McGrady are available, you have to get them. That means that Orlando was in the position of power in the deal, in spite of handling it all very badly. For all we know, Houston DID try demanding Gooden instead of Howard, but Orlando was in the better position to make demands. For starters, we needed to either give up more assets or take back more liabilities, since as we all knew, McGrady > Francis + Mobley. There might also have been salary reasons for it, as Gooden was still on his rookie contract I believe.

Iggyemu wrote:The Rockets though never drafted well. And they never addressed the weakest but most vital position on the floor in that of the PG.

True enough, especially regarding our pre-Morey drafts, but I still don't think we have ever been presented with a good chance to upgrade the point.

Iggyemu wrote:Yao and McGrady could have played more games together but I think what we saw in the Utah series was a team that just wasn't good enough. Yao wasn't good enough and McGrady wasn't great when he needed to be great. Until that series we didn't really know how good this thing would be.

We started Chuck Hayes and had Luther Head, Juwan Howard, and Deeeeeeke off the bench in the 2007 series. Winning it would have been a huge upset. Basically, our hopes for the season WAY outpaced reality, as a 5-deep team (with one of the players being for defense off the bench) is mostly doomed. More importantly, this should all be water under the brudge by now so I'm shutting up.

barnsleyman123 wrote:No one is complaining about trading for McGrady.

Not true, there have been at least 5-8 posts I've read in threads around here lately, as well as direct comments from 2 friends of mine and quite a few other people saying he should go or have already been gone (topics I kindof addressed here, but more in other threads).

Iggyemu wrote:Two things.

JVG said it best. When a Tracy McGrady is out there you have to go get him. He was coming off leading the league in scoring. Had put up 32ppg the previous year the highest total in 10 years in the NBA at the time. So the Rockets made the right decision.

One thing that could have been handled better was who the Rockets got. Instead of Juwan they should have insisted on Gooden. That was a big mistake on Houston's part. From there the Magic completely rebuilt and completed that process last off season. See McGrady wasn't the issue in Orlando...he was part of it but not all of it. You can tell that by the moves the Magic made over the next few years.

The Rockets though never drafted well. And they never addressed the weakest but most vital position on the floor in that of the PG. Yao and McGrady could have played more games together but I think what we saw in the Utah series was a team that just wasn't good enough. Yao wasn't good enough and McGrady wasn't great when he needed to be great. Until that series we didn't really know how good this thing would be. We knew afterwards that it wasn't good enough. So the Rockets made the right move in getting McGrady....but unfortunately because of injuries they didn't early enough what this team lacked. Probably would have found out in 06 and not 07 but everyone pretty much was injured in 06...the year we got the 6th pick.

IMO we don't lose our chance when trading for Tmac, we lose our chance when we could have lost some more games back in 06 when both Yao and Tmac were injured..I mean, 2 spots up and we could get Roy...I like Shane a lot since he's been playing for the Rockets, but man, with Roy here, we would be set for the future and he would have been this 3rd option when we played the Jazz 2 years ago.
And I agree with Moofs, always tought that getting Gooden would have been difficult.

Mike12345 wrote:I agree Iggy but to even discuss tmac in the utah series in a negative way is just wrong. Battier was absolutely horrible that series and your talking about a guy who played on team USA. Luther head couldnt buy a bucket and raefor was pretty inconsistent. On top of that Yao got completely owned when he covered Boozer i mean it wasj ust embarassing.

Now THAT is some revisionist TOF history right there. McGrady couldn't even defeat the defense of Derek Fisher, all 6'1" of him. He shot sub 40% from the field and 25% from beyond the arc. He turned in putrid performances in the three road games preventing the Rockets from stealing a game on the road which would have won them the series. He was about as bad as Yao; he played better than Yao in the home games but worse in the road games. He is just as much to blame for that loss as Yao was.

abcdef wrote:Now THAT is some revisionist TOF history right there. McGrady couldn't even defeat the defense of Derek Fisher, all 6'1" of him. He shot sub 40% from the field and 25% from beyond the arc. He turned in putrid performances in the three road games preventing the Rockets from stealing a game on the road which would have won them the series. He was about as bad as Yao; he played better than Yao in the home games but worse in the road games. He is just as much to blame for that loss as Yao was.

Not sure it really Tmac and Yao who are to blame. IMO the whole Yao was **** up by Boozer is overblown. Don't forget they(the Jazz) were a good team , and IMO Battier was not as effective against them as he would have been against other teams (I mean, yes, he was quite good , but knowing the Jazz had their most offense from PG and PF spots, that's not Battier's role to guard; he would have been better against a different kind of team)
I said it before, with Scola in place of Howard, we take that team in 6 games. it was partially Yao and Tmac's fault( our leaders being good, not Great, when we needed them) and the supporting cast being supbar, and JVG being I think a little too stubborn.
All this **** about Yao/McGrady in that serie is way overblown.

T-Mac United wrote:

moofs wrote:

T-Mac United wrote:There's too much logic, partial order, and equivalence relation in this thread.
I'll pass.

What's "partial order" and "equivalence relation"?

Equivalence relation is the = relation between elements of any set.
(Howard->James->+Bonzi->Jackson->Artest) In this case, the NBA is the set.

Partial order is a more complicated form of ≤, <, ≥, > that involves sets.
(McGrady package vs. Francis package) In this case, each package is a set.

I used those terms as exaggerations.

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EDIT: This is a good post. I can't believe that there are people who think it was a bad deal.

Now use induction to prove that Francis-Mobley-Cato<McGrady-Howard-Gaines-Lue.

Discrete math on a basketball forum! I'm all warm and fuzzy inside.