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Saw something on CF that was interesting.

This trade robs the Knicks of any assets they could really use for a sign-and-trade deal. In other words, they would be forced to sign James/Wade/Bosh outright instead of offering picks/expirings for a S&T deal, which actually puts the Knicks at a disadvantage, because at the max level, the difference between re-signing with your old team and signing a deal with a new team is apparently $30 million. In other words, Walsh has to convince LeBron to leave a winning team, give up $30 million, and join an incompetently run team with the only selling point that Walsh would be able to convince some other star to give up $30 million as well.

Another thing is that assets like the Knicks picks and Hill, as well as the expirings of Battier and Jeffries could potentially be used as trade bait for a sign-and-trade for someone like Bosh. Which could effectively mean that the Knicks gave us assets to screw them out of a big FA signing, and costing them a higher draft pick.

BINGO!!

Plus the Knicks have to decide if they want to go after two MAX FAs or not. If they elect to do that, then they have to renounce the rights to McGrady and Lee.

T-Mac and Lee combine for a cap hold of 26.8 million combined. So if the Knicks have what... a lil over 34 million in cap space? If they want to sign A max FA then T-Mac has to be renounced. His cap hold is over 18 million. They must renounce him because they cant use that cap space until he is renounced. So once T-Mac is renounced they lose his bird rights. Same thing with Lee.

A lot of pressure on NY this summer. And if they swing and miss, then they are screwed and we seek the benefits.

Another key factor people did not mention yet is China and with Yao as the national figure I see top tier player like Lebron James, Dwade willing to come here. Last but not least Houston is not a small city by any mean and it's a state tax free town. I see us go after the big 3 this summer. Let's do it Morey.

Jaykoolzboy wrote:Another key factor people did not mention yet is China and with Yao as the national figure I see top tier player like Lebron James, Dwade willing to come here. Last but not least Houston is not a small city by any mean and it's a state tax free town. I see us go after the big 3 this summer. Let's do it Morey.

Are we going to have the cap room now or do we have to convince them to take less to increase their chances to win?

Sign-and-trade. We have a few expirings, and we have lottery picks to trade.

Here's a fun question: did the Knicks actually hurt their chances of getting LeBron by making this trade?

VC#15 wrote:

Jaykoolzboy wrote:Another key factor people did not mention yet is China and with Yao as the national figure I see top tier player like Lebron James, Dwade willing to come here. Last but not least Houston is not a small city by any mean and it's a state tax free town. I see us go after the big 3 this summer. Let's do it Morey.

Are we going to have the cap room now or do we have to convince them to take less to increase their chances to win?

Sign and trade, we can offer 30 mil more than the NYK and give em something back, we have 3 really nice draft picks if New York did not land guys like Lebron, Dwade or Bosh.

I think something like this works

Shane Battier + Kevin Martin (he has to stay healthy this season, its the key)+ Jordna Hill + New York's first round next year and our swap-able draft pick this year for Lebron James (max deal start at 18mil) or Dwade (max deal start at 18mil)

If Lebron or Dwade convinced they wanna come here to the Rockets, I see no reason why their GM would reject offers like that.

Anywayz, Lets all get some Heineken for Morey if we ever see this guy around.

Can't you use trade exceptions in sign-and-trades?

Jaykoolzboy wrote:Another key factor people did not mention yet is China and with Yao as the national figure I see top tier player like Lebron James, Dwade willing to come here. Last but not least Houston is not a small city by any mean and it's a state tax free town. I see us go after the big 3 this summer. Let's do it Morey.

I don't think it's necessarily true. LeBron James and Dwyane Wade are already renown global superstars. They don't need any influence from China.

If either player comes to Houston (via trade), it's not because of China. It's because Houston has one of the bigger markets and because the Rockets have talent.

So in other words, Daryl Morey is a bastard.

Although I don't like this deal for the Knicks (too much risk) I gotta say that your guys logic and Morey's logic is totally flawed. Sign and trade deals for the type of FAs you are talking about are pretty much unheard of as long as you don't have the necessary cap room as leverage. You basically have little to no leverage. As a knick fan I know that: There have been plenty of very very good players talking about the Knicks when they were FAs in the past and it never worked out.
I'm not sure what Houston's chances at a max FA were prior to this trade and what NY's were but to think Houston's improved and NY's decrease is flawed logic.


I personally wouldn't have done the deal as a knick fan but if NY gets two max FAs(that's a big if and too big an if for my taste) and if it's Lebron/Bosh then it doesn't even matter what the Rockets or any other NBA team do in the next 8 years because as long as those guys stay healthy the title will be between LA and NY. Despite all the credit that Morey receives he'll have to come up with a miracle in the summer if he wants to threaten the Lakers. And Amar'e isn't that miracle. Despite having a solid team in place the Rockets also need a Lebron,Wade or Bosh in order to be able to come out of the west and IMO and considering what history suggests it is way more unlikely to achieve that with zero capspace then with 15mill. in capspace.

I was listening to the interview with Morey when he was discussing this with the hosts. I started thinking about what kind of trade assets we had for this summer before & after this deal:

Before:

Aaron Brooks (effective, cheap contract)
Carl Landry (effective, cheap contract)
Luis Scola (S&T)
Chase Budinger (effective, cheap contract)
Shane Battier (effective, expiring)
2010 First Round Pick
2011 First Round Pick
2012 First Round Pick

Obviously, you can't trade all of those picks, but just one or a combo of non-consecutive years.


After:

Aaron Brooks (effective, cheap contract)
Luis Scola (S&T)
Chase Budinger (effective, cheap contract)
Shane Battier (effective, expiring)
Jared Jeffries (expiring)
Hilton Armstrong (expiring)
Jordan Hill (recent first round pick, cheap contract, value could improve)
2010 First Round Pick
2011 First Round Pick (with pick-swap option, #1 protected)
2012 First Round Pick
2012 Knicks First Round Pick (top 5 protected)

Also, you consider that they may be willing to move Martin or Ariza for the right offer and I'd say that Morey has considerably increased his flexibility, rather than decrease it.

Knicksick wrote:The 30mill. argument is also flawed. It's for an extra year---Lebron and Wade for example have opted for shorter contracts in the past to be more flexible about their future and NY can offer as much as their original teams over the length of 6 years.

No, it's not possible. Otherwise it circumvents the CBA. A player who resigns with their old team can sign a 6-year deal (only with Larry Bird rights) while other teams can only offer 5-years. Not to mention that you can only inherit the Bird rights via trade. Thus, no free agent can sign a 6-year contract with a new team.

In other words, Morey is right because the sign and trade is the only way to acquire a free agent with the largest possible contract.

EDIT: Should LeBron make his decision solely based on money, corporations must step up and make up for the potential $30m loss to see him play in New York.

What New York's*** hopes hinge upon is that they can convince 2 Max-level guys to forgo a combined 60 million in salary in order to sign them outright.

The only way around that would be to offer a shorter deal where they could renegotiate for a longer, more lucrative deal extension...but with the potential of a lockout and changes to the CBA that is kind of a gamble in and of itself.

I guess we're looking at two wildly different approaches towards free agency: Cap Room or using assets to Sign & Trade. This will be an interesting summer.

Of course, Morey could just be talking about possibilities. Right now he has a pretty solid team lined up for next season (with the ability to bring Scola & Lowry back). He also has options.

The NBA should fear that Morey has options!!!

*** edit - it's not fair to single out NY. This goes for all the teams that just did a cap purge.

Mr. E wrote:What New York's hopes hinge upon is that they can convince 2 Max-level guys to forgo a combined 60 million in salary in order to sign them outright.

The only way around that would be to offer a shorter deal where they could renegotiate for a longer, more lucrative deal extension...but with the potential of a lockout and changes to the CBA that is kind of a gamble in and of itself.

I guess we're looking at two wildly different approaches towards free agency: Cap Room or using assets to Sign & Trade. This will be an interesting summer.

Of course, Morey could just be talking about possibilities. Right now he has a pretty solid team lined up for next season (with the ability to bring Scola & Lowry back). He also has options.

The NBA should fear that Morey has options!!!

Exactly! Give them 3-year deals, then offer them an extension. Though, it would still be less than the max contracts what they would have gotten from their old team.

Let's all be realistic here. Lebron is most likely going to resign with Cleveland. Dwade is most likely going to resign in Miami b/c I think riley will blow up the team if he has to to get in another star (probably Amare/Bosh/Boozer). So who will NY get that will change their luck? Chicago? Clippers?

The thing about all these teams that cleared space. Chicago has a good team. The clippers are okay. NY is horrible. There's no way NY will win this gamble b/c there's no combo of 2nd tier players that will make them great. Sure they'll make the playoffs with a Joe Johnson and boozer/Amare, but win it all? (I guess a Knicks fan would consider the playoffs a win).

I seriously hope we don't offer anyone a max contract b/c past history will show it hurts you more than helps in most cases.

i sense fear inb alot of teams. See what you fail to understand is that we are also looking at the 2011 class ( Durant, Carmelo). I dont think we make this dump without knowing something on the side. Walsh did what he had to do as well as what he said he'd do and in the end i think we will be good. Hold on to your hats cause houston wont be in the running for any of the big 3 free agents this summer..i Promise you..matter of fact save this message and talk to me in August

JookyJam wrote:i sense fear inb alot of teams. See what you fail to understand is that we are also looking at the 2011 class ( Durant, Carmelo). I dont think we make this dump without knowing something on the side. Walsh did what he had to do as well as what he said he'd do and in the end i think we will be good. Hold on to your hats cause houston wont be in the running for any of the big 3 free agents this summer..i Promise you..matter of fact save this message and talk to me in August

That's only if the lose out on LeBron, Wade or Bosh, and opt to not sign Johnson or Boozer. To me it is clear that Walsh's immediate plan in the 2010 FA. Otherwise, why was he so relentless in trading Jeffries contract at the expanse of 2x future 1st-round pick?

ohh i do agree his target is James this summer. I honestly cant see he going after James and Wade. That still leaves us small, but ill take a James, Bosh and a Tmac in a reduce roll with fillers for sure. Ohh well we'll see how it all works out 2010. Nothing is for sure but there has to be something said to have this kind of urgency for 2010 by NY. A la Shaq leaving Orlando for L.A

Well, the $30 million the players would be leaving would come mainly from the additional 6th year. The thing is that players like James, Wade, and Bosh are likely sign a contract in which they have player options after the 3rd year. (This is why they are enter free agency now.) Unless the next CBA completely chances (for the worse for the players), it's very likely that all of the top free agents are going to opt out of the deals well before that 6th year. This means that extra 6th year shouldn't be a big deal, other than an extra of insurance in case of a career ending injury.

If LeBron James does decide to leave Cleveland and go to New York, I can see him signing the MAX deal outright. If winning is important to him he would risk losing key future teammates like Wilson Chandler and Danilo Gallinari just to get a few more million over the first 3 years of his deal. He could easily make that money up just from Nike giving him more money to come to New York, and he'll have opportunities to make money in other ways. (I heard James Dolan is willing to give James his own cable station.) Now the second MAX player will probably require a sign-and-trade, and that could be involve David Lee or maybe an asset (such as a trade exception and a pick) obtained by signing-and-trading him. Or the second player will have to settle for the 5-year deal as well.

I don't believe New York's lack of tradable assets for possible "MAX" sign-and-trades will matter much in the end. I doubt NY deals either Chandler or Gallinari, even if it means adding James and Wade/Bosh/Stoudemire/Johnson/etc. They will be bare-boned enough, to be giving away any more young assets (as they did in this trade). If they do, it will be a last option type deal.

Everything is still up in the air, but if two MAX players decide to team up in NY, then they'll have to sacrifice a little (such as forfeiting that sixth year) and signing straight up. I don't know if any of the top free agents will be willing to do that, but I won't rule it out either. It will depend on if the players put a premium on winning, or getting the most money they can. If they Knicks add to two top free agents there is no guarantee that they will be immediate title contenders, but they will be a very dangerous team as the parts are added over the next couple seasons, and they will be very young a capable for contending longer than most teams.

Also, how are the Knicks "incompetently" ran? From what I can tell, New York fired Isiah Thomas and Scott Layden a long time ago. The Knicks didn't give up "2x future 1st-round pick[s]." They gave up one (in 2012). They gave up an option to swap, unless the pick is the #1 overall pick (in 2011).