Post Draft Thoughts/Grades/Predictions/UDFA's

[humanrefutation]

No but I did go to school to be a physician assistant. Its quite easy to diagnose. In fact for any athlete (weekend warrior in my experience) loss of articular surface is a pretty significant hurdle to over come. There is no way to rehab the loss of the surface. Once its gone it doesnt come back. Micro fx is somewhat of a shot in the dark procedure too. The outcomes vary significantly with very few truly successful returns. If Jack does have degeneration of the articular surface of the knee there is no rehabbing that. He will have to absolutely at some point have the chondroplasty to try and regen the surface.

Fair enough. But isn't it reasonable to assume that Andrews has seen his scans and has concluded that Jack does not have degeneration of the articular surface of the knee? Or at least it's insignificant enough that it won't warrant microfracture surgery?

That seems much more in line with his quote than assuming that Andrews made a significant error of omission.

Truthfully to me it sounds like lip service from Andrews or a quote open to interpretation. Over 31 NFL teams felt differently with their physicians or teams of physicians than Andrews quote. If there was only the meniscus injury and no degeneration he woulda been a top guy. This never would be brought up or debated here. There has to be a reason why he slid and that reason has been stated as the need for the chondroplasty. Meaning there is articular surface degeneration.

Those are a hell of a lot more assumptions than I'm making by simply reading the quote from Schefter.

Andrews has nothing to gain by lying. Jack had already been drafted. He's not going to get paid more by telling Jack he doesn't need surgery. His reputation is intact. Making things up is quite the risk to take for a guy who has little to gain by being right.

Teams are obviously extraordinarily risk averse in the first round. Even the hint of the chance Jack's injuries are career-defining could cause many teams to pass. That doesn't mean he needs microfracture.

The only thing we know definitively is that the preeminent sports orthopedist has reviewed Jack's scans and progress and determined that he doesn't need the surgery.

Could he be wrong? Of course. But I'm not going to authoritatively speculate otherwise without having a legitimate reason to.

[Balls2TheWalls]

Didn't that Andrews information come out before he got drafted? I am pretty sure it came out before the 2nd round started on the day of the 2nd round.

[wichmae]

Didn't that Andrews information come out before he got drafted? I am pretty sure it came out before the 2nd round started on the day of the 2nd round.

Correct. It came out after the first round. Before round two even started. They even speculated on the draft show that Andrews may have made that quote by being asked to from Jacks camp.

[wichmae]

Fair enough. But isn't it reasonable to assume that Andrews has seen his scans and has concluded that Jack does not have degeneration of the articular surface of the knee? Or at least it's insignificant enough that it won't warrant microfracture surgery?

That seems much more in line with his quote than assuming that Andrews made a significant error of omission.

Truthfully to me it sounds like lip service from Andrews or a quote open to interpretation. Over 31 NFL teams felt differently with their physicians or teams of physicians than Andrews quote. If there was only the meniscus injury and no degeneration he woulda been a top guy. This never would be brought up or debated here. There has to be a reason why he slid and that reason has been stated as the need for the chondroplasty. Meaning there is articular surface degeneration.

Those are a hell of a lot more assumptions than I'm making by simply reading the quote from Schefter.

Andrews has nothing to gain by lying. Jack had already been drafted. He's not going to get paid more by telling Jack he doesn't need surgery. His reputation is intact. Making things up is quite the risk to take for a guy who has little to gain by being right.

Teams are obviously extraordinarily risk averse in the first round. Even the hint of the chance Jack's injuries are career-defining could cause many teams to pass. That doesn't mean he needs microfracture.

The only thing we know definitively is that the preeminent sports orthopedist has reviewed Jack's scans and progress and determined that he doesn't need the surgery.

Could he be wrong? Of course. But I'm not going to authoritatively speculate otherwise without having a legitimate reason to.

I think youre missing quite a bit here. If there is degeneration he will absolutely at some point need the surgery. Its like the sun absolutely will come up tomorrow. Its going to eventually happen. There is no physiological way to reverse degeneration. If its there its only going to get worse. Obviously I personally have never scoped the guys knee but probably close to 100 other physicians from teams have reviewed the information and deemed it to be too risky. The quote no where said definitively he will never need it. In fact the way most people are interpreting it is that he doesnt need it right now. So he most likely had an impact chondro injury earlier in his life and there are portions of the surface where the cartilage is missing. Therefore leading teams to believe there will be continued degeneration until the procedure happens. This is fairly common place for soccer players who have meniscus or LCL MCL injuries in their early youth. The surface has virtually no blood supply and therefore doesnt regrow. Its like tearing your acl and hoping it grows back together. It just doesnt work that way.

[humanrefutation]

Truthfully to me it sounds like lip service from Andrews or a quote open to interpretation. Over 31 NFL teams felt differently with their physicians or teams of physicians than Andrews quote. If there was only the meniscus injury and no degeneration he woulda been a top guy. This never would be brought up or debated here. There has to be a reason why he slid and that reason has been stated as the need for the chondroplasty. Meaning there is articular surface degeneration.

Those are a hell of a lot more assumptions than I'm making by simply reading the quote from Schefter.

Andrews has nothing to gain by lying. Jack had already been drafted. He's not going to get paid more by telling Jack he doesn't need surgery. His reputation is intact. Making things up is quite the risk to take for a guy who has little to gain by being right.

Teams are obviously extraordinarily risk averse in the first round. Even the hint of the chance Jack's injuries are career-defining could cause many teams to pass. That doesn't mean he needs microfracture.

The only thing we know definitively is that the preeminent sports orthopedist has reviewed Jack's scans and progress and determined that he doesn't need the surgery.

Could he be wrong? Of course. But I'm not going to authoritatively speculate otherwise without having a legitimate reason to.

I think youre missing quite a bit here. If there is degeneration he will absolutely at some point need the surgery. Its like the sun absolutely will come up tomorrow. Its going to eventually happen. There is no physiological way to reverse degeneration. If its there its only going to get worse. Obviously I personally have never scoped the guys knee but probably close to 100 other physicians from teams have reviewed the information and deemed it to be too risky. The quote no where said definitively he will never need it. In fact the way most people are interpreting it is that he doesnt need it right now. So he most likely had an impact chondro injury earlier in his life and there are portions of the surface where the cartilage is missing. Therefore leading teams to believe there will be continued degeneration until the procedure happens. This is fairly common place for soccer players who have meniscus or LCL MCL injuries in their early youth. The surface has virtually no blood supply and therefore doesnt regrow. Its like tearing your acl and hoping it grows back together. It just doesnt work that way.

I'm not missing anything. I understand what you're saying.

But, I literally read a quote from an orthopedist who reviewed his scans and determined that he doesn't need microfracture surgery. Thus, I am assuming that he doesn't have a condition - namely the degeneration that you're describing - that necessitates microfracture surgery. One leads to the other. Otherwise, it makes no sense that Andrews would say that he doesn't need microfracture surgery.

If my doctor tells me that I don't need chemotherapy, I'm not going to assume that what he really means is that I'm definitely going to need to have it in a few years. That would be asinine.

[Balls2TheWalls]

I think that the medical checks of the 25+ teams that would have been foolish to pass on a healthy Jack speaks volumes. I don't really care what Andrews says at that point.

[wichmae]

I think that the medical checks of the 25+ teams that would have been foolish to pass on a healthy Jack speaks volumes. I don't really care what Andrews says at that point.

Correct. Considering the bending of the quote too. The quote is doesnt. Not wont. Pertaining to mostly right now. If the reports are true and he has degenerative knees I applaud not wasting a first rounder on a guy like that. Weve seen the debilitation recently on Clowney. Easy pass for me.

[emunney]

Reports are he has a chondral defect. That could/likely will lead to microfracture. When exactly that would be is a guess. Depends on the extent of the damage. My guess, again, is that a lot more guys have chondral defects than have been reported... it's wear and tear, part and parcel of a violent game that is hell on the knees -- we know the majority of these guys will have osteoarthritis much sooner than the average person. That's just where it starts. Microfracture is a stall. People wouldn't be passing on him if his wasn't significant, I would think significant enough that the procedure would be in the predictable part of the future, or if there is another thing.

[humanrefutation]

Melvin Gordon just had microfracture surgery and the timetable is 4-6 months for recovery. I hope it doesn't seriously curtail his career.

[bizarro]

Back to the Packers roster:

I am extremely intrigued by this crop of UDFA's. I really appreciate the quality and depth. I think the secondary and WR battles are my two most intriguing areas heading into camp - from a position of most strength. ILB and DL, honestly, are the two positions that most concern me with the roster.

[emunney]

Melvin Gordon just had microfracture surgery and the timetable is 4-6 months for recovery. I hope it doesn't seriously curtail his career.

He had it in January.

[humanrefutation]

Melvin Gordon just had microfracture surgery and the timetable is 4-6 months for recovery. I hope it doesn't seriously curtail his career.

He had it in January.

Yeah, I don't know why I said "just."

[Frank Nova]

Back to the Packers roster:

I am extremely intrigued by this crop of UDFA's. I really appreciate the quality and depth. I think the secondary and WR battles are my two most intriguing areas heading into camp - from a position of most strength. ILB and DL, honestly, are the two positions that most concern me with the roster.

Makinton Dorleant is like my new favorite underdog. I really really hope he makes the team and I think he will.

ILB I think is in better shape than we see on paper. Barrington is back and healthy, Ryan is a year stronger/better, it's really hard not to be excited about Martinez after everything I keep reading and we still have Clay to move around. Plus I know Joe Thomas had more downs than ups last year but he showed some signs he could be a decent plug and play type guy if/when needed. Plus Beniquez Brown could also stick around and make a name for himself. Idk maybe I'm just too optimistic, I definitely see a ton of question marks but I'm really holding out hope that TT finally got it right this time with the personel we have. After suffering through Brad Jones all those years, we deserve a break.

DL is a crapshoot though I agree. That's what I'm most worried about to. Kenny Clark looks great and everything but no chance is he the immediate answer. Daniels is a star but after him the cupboard is pretty bare. Guion and Datone are poster boys for mediocre and Pennell looks like he could be an up and comer but we gotta wait through his suspension. And I'm willing to bet Dean Lowry isn't the next JJ Watt that saves the day and becomes a star, hopefully he's good though.

My thing is, sometimes I get annoyed with the time consumption of draft and develop philosophy. We just always find ourselves relying way to heavily on unknown commodities. It's never that x player is out but y player is ready. It's always X player is out so hopefully y player is ready but we are going to find out because he's the best option we have. I hate to really complain that we aren't out there signing the Josh Normans of the league to record deals but I sure wouldn't be upset if we filled some glaring holes with NFL players and not UDFA's every offseason. Jared Cook signing was nice and I think that pays off nicely for us but how about 3 of those types of signings and not just 1, what's it really hurt?

[Ayt]

Athletic freaks like Jack get overrated every draft by fans and "experts." Throw in the knee issue and it is understandable why he fell to pick 36.

Who knows where teams would have had him on their boards ignoring the knee.

[MickeyDavis]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/hometown-kid-peter-mortell-getting-a-kick-out-of-spot-on-packers-b99722623z1-378865701.html

I hope he gets a legit shot

[ReasonablySober]

Athletic freaks like Jack get overrated every draft by fans and "experts." Throw in the knee issue and it is understandable why he fell to pick 36.

Who knows where teams would have had him on their boards ignoring the knee.

I think his drop may also have something to do with his drop. An impact linebacker may be the least vital position on the field. If Jalen Ramsey had the same issues I don't think he's dropping out of the top ten.

[WeekapaugGroove]

Athletic freaks like Jack get overrated every draft by fans and "experts." Throw in the knee issue and it is understandable why he fell to pick 36.

Who knows where teams would have had him on their boards ignoring the knee.

I think his drop may also have something to do with his drop. An impact linebacker may be the least vital position on the field. If Jalen Ramsey had the same issues I don't think he's dropping out of the top ten.

I totally agree and to piggyback I think leg injury concerns are magnified more with an athletic freak type prospect like Jack. If he loses a step then his value diminishes a ton.

For all the angst about not picking Jack I wonder if we'll all laugh at that in a couple years and it will be robert nkemdiche that we regret not picking. If (and it's a big if) keeps his head on straight he might be a monster pass rusher from the inside.

[WeekapaugGroove]

I think that the medical checks of the 25+ teams that would have been foolish to pass on a healthy Jack speaks volumes. I don't really care what Andrews says at that point.

Correct. Considering the bending of the quote too. The quote is doesnt. Not wont. Pertaining to mostly right now. If the reports are true and he has degenerative knees I applaud not wasting a first rounder on a guy like that. Weve seen the debilitation recently on Clowney. Easy pass for me.

This 100%. I'm actually surprised your point about the wording of the quote wasn't brought up more by the media. When I first heard it my reaction was no **** he doesn't need it now; that was never on the table. The concern is that he could/probably will need it at some point.

[sdn40]

From everything I gathered from the situation, Andrews didn't really lie. Jack doesn't need micro fracture surgery ......today. However, if he doesn't blow the whole thing up first, he will need it sooner rather than later. Just gotta get that contract signed first. It also speaks volumes that teams were speaking to Jack about an injury clause in the contract. There is a whole lotta smoke for there not to be a fire. In the end, there just isnt any value in that pick.

[pack15412]

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/hometown-kid-peter-mortell-getting-a-kick-out-of-spot-on-packers-b99722623z1-378865701.html

I hope he gets a legit shot

But that would mean no more Tim Masthay, Touchback Machine.