Week 8: Non-Packers

emunney · Post #321 » by **emunney** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:26 pm

Considering that there are 11 starters on every offense, and QB is by far the most dominant position in football, I don't see how it diminishes the position of RB to say that they are represented by the most important offensive starter on at least 6 teams (CHI, BUF, SF, STL, OAK, MIN). Two of those teams are very bad, one is very good, and three are playoff coin flips.

Nobody's claiming RB is the most important position, or even the 2nd most important position. Just that stating that it's by far the least important non-ST starter seems ridiculous given what actually happens in the NFL on teams that don't have good QBs.

Kerb Hohl · Post #322 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:29 pm

emunney wrote:Nobody's claiming RB is the most important position, or even the 2nd most important position. Just that stating that it's by far the least important non-ST starter seems ridiculous given what actually happens in the NFL on teams that don't have good QBs.

Exactly. I'm not saying RB is vital, but it isn't below C, G, and possibly MLB. Safety as well, and depending on the corner I could be convinced.

chuckleslove · Post #323 » by **chuckleslove** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:29 pm

GrendonJennings wrote:Wow, I wasn't really trying to stretch that out, so sorry Chuckles. I threw a number out there and it was really high.

Peterson and 2 firsts for Mangold, IMO would be their best move to rebuild.

Yes because hyperbole is awesome too. Did anyone here say they should trade Peterson and a couple of picks for Mangold? Nope only you.

I personally have already said that AP is the ONLY back I consider special. I would trade a first round pick for him and not think twice about it. Any other running back in the NFL I would take an elite offensive lineman over, the only other back I would give second thought to would be Foster.

But hey when your argument has devolved into hyperbole and exaggerations you are doing just great.

Newz · Post #324 » by **Newz** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:29 pm

GrendonJennings wrote:Wow, I wasn't really trying to stretch that out, so sorry Chuckles. I threw a number out there and it was really high.

Peterson and 2 firsts for Mangold, IMO would be their best move to rebuild.

When you have to start making stupid statements like that... you know you are really failing.

Kerb Hohl · Post #325 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:31 pm

Jesus christ guys. I accidentally said 20. I meant big leads. It was the main topic of discussion on their season.

I'd consider McFadden special and that other 6-7 top RBs as guys I'd value way more than a measly center, I don't care if he's HOF.

Detroit's offense isn't the same without Best unless they're playing Denver.

LUKE23 · Post #326 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:32 pm

I strongly disagree on both accounts. At the minimum the Lions game needs to be thrown out because losing Rodgers hurt us way more than having no Finley in that game, but even still I just disagree that he is worth more than 3 points.

Some people around here have a serious hard on for Finley and he is a great talent/player but if he went down with an injury this week I don't think we would start averaging a touchdown less a game.

We weren't moving the ball with Rodgers that game, to act like it skews a 40 game sample that much even if he does play doesn't compute.

Well, so far, all we have to go on is what has happened. Last year, we scored 24.3 ppg in the regular season. This year, 32.9. Overall, the difference with vs. without through 43 games is around a TD. So the evidence is there.

LUKE23 · Post #327 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:32 pm

emunney wrote:Considering that there are 11 starters on every offense, and QB is by far the most dominant position in football, I don't see how it diminishes the position of RB to say that they are represented by the most important offensive starter on at least 6 teams (CHI, BUF, SF, STL, OAK, MIN). Two of those teams are very bad, one is very good, and three are playoff coin flips.

Nobody's claiming RB is the most important position, or even the 2nd most important position. Just that stating that it's by far the least important non-ST starter seems ridiculous given what actually happens in the NFL on teams that don't have good QBs.

Bingo.

chuckleslove · Post #328 » by **chuckleslove** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:33 pm

We had these same stupid arguments about the value of a RB last year when people wanted TT to trade a 3rd round pick for Marshawn Lynch. I don't know about the rest of you but I would take Alex Green over Lynch, I know Green is injured and out for the year now but I see him as more upside and potential than Lynch and on a better contract. So glad TT doesn't value RB like half the posters around here do.

Newz · Post #329 » by **Newz** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:34 pm

chuckleslove wrote:We had these same stupid arguments about the value of a RB last year when people wanted TT to trade a 3rd round pick for Marshawn Lynch. I don't know about the rest of you but I would take Alex Green over Lynch, I know Green is injured and out for the year now but I see him as more upside and potential than Lynch and on a better contract. So glad TT doesn't value RB like half the posters around here do.

This times a million.

PkrsBcksGphsMqt · Post #330 » by **PkrsBcksGphsMqt** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:34 pm

Jamal Charles is another guy that changes his team's offense when he's on the field and is probably their best player.

Kerb Hohl · Post #331 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:35 pm

I didn't want Lynch either. Yeah, I agree that just like any other position it's a crapshoot once you get off the top of the list.

I was member A1 in saying that I didn't want Lynch really.

Why are centers always drafted and paid below RBs? Guards? Usually MLBs?

Chuck, we're not saying RBs are top 3 in importance, just not worst.

LUKE23 · Post #332 » by **LUKE23** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:35 pm

chuckleslove wrote:We had these same stupid arguments about the value of a RB last year when people wanted TT to trade a 3rd round pick for Marshawn Lynch. I don't know about the rest of you but I would take Alex Green over Lynch, I know Green is injured and out for the year now but I see him as more upside and potential than Lynch and on a better contract. So glad TT doesn't value RB like half the posters around here do.

That is not what is being argued. The original comment was, "RB is the least valuable position outside of K/P". That is the comment that sparked this debate. It's a ridiculous comment.

Kerb Hohl · Post #333 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:35 pm

PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:Jamal Charles is another guy that changes his team's offense when he's on the field and is probably their best player.

Was just about to post this. 12th in PPG down to 25th this year.

chuckleslove · Post #334 » by **chuckleslove** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:40 pm

LUKE23 wrote:
I strongly disagree on both accounts. At the minimum the Lions game needs to be thrown out because losing Rodgers hurt us way more than having no Finley in that game, but even still I just disagree that he is worth more than 3 points.

Some people around here have a serious hard on for Finley and he is a great talent/player but if he went down with an injury this week I don't think we would start averaging a touchdown less a game.

We weren't moving the ball with Rodgers that game, to act like it skews a 40 game sample that much even if he does play doesn't compute.

Well, so far, all we have to go on is what has happened. Last year, we scored 24.3 ppg in the regular season. This year, 32.9. Overall, the difference with vs. without through 43 games is around a TD. So the evidence is there.

I'm not sure if you are including the Redskins game in your calculations or not but through 4 weeks last year with Finley we were averaging 26.5 PPG, if you include the Redskins game that drops to 23.8 PPG.

It is really hard to compare across seasons because so many other players also change, we have a new LG this year, Bulaga has a full year under his belt, the addition of Cobb who is much more of a threat than Swain, not to mention having better starting field position because we have a true return man, etc...

So last year we went from scoring 26.5 PPG in weeks 1-4 to 24.45 in weeks 6-17. I didn't include the Redskins game in either figure since Finley played part of that game but not the entire game..

So Finley was worth 2.05 PPG last season by your own measure.

PkrsBcksGphsMqt · Post #335 » by **PkrsBcksGphsMqt** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:40 pm

chuckleslove wrote:We had these same stupid arguments about the value of a RB last year when people wanted TT to trade a 3rd round pick for Marshawn Lynch. I don't know about the rest of you but I would take Alex Green over Lynch, I know Green is injured and out for the year now but I see him as more upside and potential than Lynch and on a better contract. So glad TT doesn't value RB like half the posters around here do.

Well, the only reason people were considering trading for a RB was because we didn't have one on the roster and we felt like a lack of a running game would be the only that could stop us from making a Super Bowl run. I'm not sure we make that run without a competent back like James Starks. None of us knew what James Starks could do, if we did then I'm sure none of us would have been entertaining the idea of trading for a RB mid season. The coaching staff and front office did know what they had in Starks, so they didn't feel the need to trade for a RB.

Kerb Hohl · Post #336 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:40 pm

QB
OT
3-4OLB/4-3DE
DT
WR
CB
MLB/RB/S
TE
G
C

chuckleslove · Post #337 » by **chuckleslove** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:41 pm

PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:Jamal Charles is another guy that changes his team's offense when he's on the field and is probably their best player.

Yeah for me he is in that second level right with Foster that might be a special player. But he isn't healthy right now so not really debating him

Newz · Post #338 » by **Newz** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:41 pm

LUKE23 wrote:I'm using the entire sample for my claim, which is more relevant than picking and choosing stretches of games. He is definitely worth more than 3 points per game to the offense vs. an average TE.

I have no problem with saying Finley is an incredible talent and he helps our team. I want to keep him around, I think he has a very good chance to be great and I think he has a huge impact on our team at times.

But I have never EVER seen people talk about how a guy is elite like they do with Finley when:

1. He hasn't been on the field a lot.
2. He hasn't produced at an elite level.

Would you trade Finley for Graham? Because at this point I would. Graham is a freak talent, he has a ton of weapons around him and an elite QB just like Finley. Only he puts up the type of stats elite players usually do at the same time.

I'm sure guys like Gates, Shannon Sharpe, Vernon Davis, Jason Witten, etc. have all drawn a ton of attention from defenses. But that hasn't stopped them from putting up elite or record breaking type of numbers.

Kerb Hohl · Post #339 » by **Kerb Hohl** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:42 pm

chuckleslove wrote:
PkrsBcksGphsMqt wrote:Jamal Charles is another guy that changes his team's offense when he's on the field and is probably their best player.

Yeah for me he is in that second level right with Foster that might be a special player. But he isn't healthy right now so not really debating him

Chuck, all we're saying is that it isn't the least valuable position outside of K/P.

I'll listen to any other debate, really.

emunney · Post #340 » by **emunney** » Tue Nov 1, 2011 4:42 pm

That whole John Kuhn at featured back thing was not ideal, and it did hurt us. Kind of like the Erik Walden at OLB thing isn't, or the Peprah at S thing. Yes, you can win with those guys (obviously), but that doesn't mean their positions aren't important. It just means we have enough great players elsewhere.