ATL: Offseason

[humanrefutation]

I don't think it's necessarily true that this will be a "distraction" brought on the team. It's not like these guys haven't practiced under intense media scrutiny before, and they're not the first team to participate in a reality show during the season. I don't think it's necessarily the smartest decision for ANY rookie, particularly a 7th rounder who is going to fight to make the team anyway, to bring a greater spotlight on himself. That can rub teammates and coaches the wrong way. But, if he performs, they'll get over it.

I don't know why Sam is doing it - if it's just for the attention and hype, it's worthy of critique. But there's something to be said for the value of watching a gay player try to make an NFL team and its impact on bullied, closeted, or otherwise uncomfortable gay kids out there. A show like this, where they're watching someone like Sam physically destroy stereotypes and show that a gay man can succeed in a hyper-macho environment, might bring comfort to those kids who feel socially repressed. He can be a role model for them.

[Newz]

Other guys have reality shows. If the guy is bordering on being cut, he's trying to cash in while the iron is hot.

Yes, he probably is disingenuous about the "it shouldn't be a big deal at all, don't even consider my sexuality" type argument but I think once again some people are trying to look under every rock for a reason to support their opinions of things.

Support their opinion on what things?

A guy comes out as gay, says he doesn't want it to be about him being gay and then just about everything is about him being gay. The only reason a majority of people know who he is is because he's gay. Then after he says something like that, he strikes up a reality TV deal to cash in... on him being gay and the media exposure it has gotten him.

I could care less if someone is gay or straight. Who they choose to sleep with is their own business and I choose to treat everyone equally. Because of that I don't see why this is the biggest story in professional sports and it rubs me the wrong way when a guy comes out and says he wants to be viewed as a football player... but then goes completely against what he said. He is doing more to turn himself into a symbol for the gay community than he is to try and make himself into a football player.

Like I said, maybe my opinion on him is distorted because the media wants to cram this down everyone's throat every chance that they get. But that's what it seems like to me. It will be interesting to continue to follow the story as I bet if he doesn't make the team (which happens to a lot of 7th rounders or undrafted guys) some of the following would happen:

1. The media would question if he was cut because he was gay.
2. They would question if he was cut because of the media circus (that they and Sam created).
3. They will question if his teammates were being cruel to him in any way, shape or form.

My continued problem with this situation is that if Sam wants to be a symbol for helping people, that's fine. If he wants to exploit his situation and make some money off of it, that's fine. But don't go around saying all you want to do is be viewed as a normal football player and then sign a reality TV deal as a 7th round draft pick. That isn't normal, it isn't the same and by doing that he's not just another football player.

In addition people want to talk about treating everyone equal... is there going to be a media documentary about every player drafted in the 7th round that makes their team? Will there be an endless stream of questions for every player that is cut or will that just apply to Sam?

It's one thing to talk about equality and that should be the goal. It's a whole other thing if Sam is using his sexuality to gain fame and for the media to be exploiting him because he's gay. I'm not gay, but if I was I honestly think I'd be pretty offended by this whole situation.

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm not going to deal with somebody nor read their entire blabber when they think being gay is confined to the bedroom by "who they choose to sleep with." It's a real **** point of view that needs to be eradicated from the planet.

Basically everyone that has a reality show is doing it on worse moral grounds. This guy, as "commercial" and "look at me" as he has gotten, still has steel balls and is paving the way for a lot of people in his position to have a much easier life. The fact that you're going into a diatribe about it tells me that we still haven't reached the point in society where he is fully accepted.

The media has crammed it down our throats because a large subset of the population freaked out that he kissed a guy on TV. We still have a long way to go, and however toolish the guy is doing it, it's making people aware of things.

Sorry, MD. Back on topic.

[Newz]

I'm not going to deal with somebody nor read their entire blabber when they think being gay is confined to the bedroom by "who they choose to sleep with."

Basically everyone that has a reality show is doing it on worse moral grounds. This guy, as "commercial" and "look at me" as he has gotten, still has steel balls and is paving the way for a lot of people in his position to have a much easier life. The fact that you're going into a diatribe about it tells me that we still haven't reached the point in society where he is fully accepted.

Sorry, MD. Back on topic.

Back on topic? This is an around the league thread... where we talk about things happening in the NFL. This is perfectly on topic.

I find it amusing that you think my opinion of treating people equally basically makes me an unaccepting bigot. And no, you didn't say that... but I can tell it's exactly what you are trying to get across when you are posting. The fact that someone saying "We should treat this guy like everyone else" registers in your mind as "We haven't reached a point in society where he is fully accepted" is absolutely ridiculous.

If you think that treating this guy like a circus freak and parading him around all over TV, the Internet, the radio, social media is good for him or this situation then I think you are wrong. You aren't treating him equal, he isn't being accepted as a football player... they are treating him like he is a freak. "Hey everyone, look at the sideshow! He is so much different than everyone else in the NFL! Let's not talk about him as a football player, let's talk about his sexual preferences... which we don't do with any other player, at least not even remotely close to this extreme! As a matter of a fact, now we need reality TV shows and documentaries about him and his sexual orientation! Hooray!"

That I am going into a diatrabe about it? I have gone off on the media overblowing guys like Manziel, LeBron and Tebow as well. Last I checked none of them are gay and I still have a problem with it.

The thing about those guys though is at least they own up to it. At least LeBron makes mention of his "brand". At least Manziel embraces being a douche and the media attention. At least Tebow made it well known that he was all about his religion. Sam came out and flat out said that he wanted to be known as a football player and not a gay football player... then he kept it a secret that he was going to make a documentary about himself being the first gay football player.

Are the other guys who are making documentaries and starring in reality TV shows saying it's just about them as a football player before they do it?

[Newz]

The media has crammed it down our throats because a large subset of the population freaked out that he kissed a guy on TV. We still have a long way to go, and however toolish the guy is doing it, it's making people aware of things.

I could care less that he kissed his boyfriend because he just got drafted. More power to him.

I'm not a fan of someone telling me "It's all about football" and then making it about everything but football. He seemed like a pretty cool guy to me at first and now he seems like a total douche. That's all I'm saying.

[humanrefutation]

He seemed like a pretty cool guy to me at first and now he seems like a total douche. That's all I'm saying.

I don't see how having a show covering his experience in training camp makes him a "total douche." That's where your criticisms go from being fairly benign to personal.

[Newz]

He seemed like a pretty cool guy to me at first and now he seems like a total douche. That's all I'm saying.

I don't see how having a show covering his experience in training camp makes him a "total douche." That's where your criticisms go from being fairly benign to personal.

Really?

The guy is saying he wants to be viewed as a football player like every other football player... he doesn't want him being gay being part of it. Which is great, I totally respect that and think it's awesome because that's how it should be. It shouldn't matter if he is gay or not.

But he says that and then he turns around and he signs on for a show that is clearly going to highlight how he is gay more so than how he is a football player.

It clearly isn't his fault the media circus is coming to town. He cannot control the national media, they are going to come if they are going to come. The media did the same thing with Tebow and it was a total disaster... that guy would probably still be in the league in some capacity if he didn't bring such a fuss with him. (Even though he wasn't very good either)

But don't say you don't want it to be about you being not gay and then, you know, make a show about you being gay. Is that not a douche move?

[humanrefutation]

I generally understand why people find his statements of "treat me like a football player" to be contradictory with him having a reality show. Obviously, the average football player, especially a 7th round pick, doesn't generate this kind of attention.

But, the thing about society's reaction to this that makes me annoyed is that people constantly complain and say things like "stop talking about the fact that you're gay!"

Why should he have to repress who he is just so people can sleep at night? The fact that he's the first gay NFLer is something of serious importance socially and athletically. Sam brought it up to begin with because he knew the story was going to come out one way or another because he came out to his Mizzou teammates, and he wanted to get ahead of it and control the message. I believe the show is designed to also do the same thing - get ahead of the story and control the message as best he can. That makes perfect sense to me.

The fact is, Michael Sam isn't like any other 7th round pick. He is in a unique and historic situation. He wants to be treated equally by his coaches and teammates. He doesn't want to be discriminated against. But his situation IS NEWS. That's why it's worthy of talking about, and why so many media sources are invested in telling his story. I highly doubt that he called Oprah and asked her to film. She approached him and asked to cover his story because she knew that people would be interested. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If people don't want to watch his show, don't. I don't blame anyone or think they're necessarily bigoted if they're not interested. But I know I'll be tuning in.

[Newz]

I generally understand why people find his statements of "treat me like a football player" to be contradictory with him having a reality show. Obviously, the average football player, especially a 7th round pick, doesn't generate this kind of attention.

But, the thing about society's reaction to this that makes me annoyed is that people constantly complain and say things like "stop talking about the fact that you're gay!"

Why should he have to repress who he is just so people can sleep at night? The fact that he's the first gay NFLer is something of serious importance socially and athletically. Sam brought it up to begin with because he knew the story was going to come out one way or another because he came out to his Mizzou teammates, and he wanted to get ahead of it and control the message. I believe the show is designed to also do the same thing - get ahead of the story and control the message as best he can. That makes perfect sense to me.

The fact is, Michael Sam isn't like any other 7th round pick. He is in a unique and historic situation. He wants to be treated equally by his coaches and teammates. He doesn't want to be discriminated against. But his situation IS NEWS. That's why it's worthy of talking about, and why so many media sources are invested in telling his story. I highly doubt that he called Oprah and asked her to film. She approached him and asked to cover his story because she knew that people would be interested. I don't see anything wrong with that.

If people don't want to watch his show, don't. I don't blame anyone or think they're necessarily bigoted if they're not interested. But I know I'll be tuning in.

I have no problem with him being gay or him talking about him being gay. When did I say that I did?

I have a problem with the media cramming it down my throat because it's obnoxious. Just like it was obnoxious when they did it (and still do it with Manziel). It was obnoxious with Tebow and it's obnoxious with LeBron. It's obnoxious with Kobe, with the Knicks and with a lot of the teams. In this case I think it's worse because I personally don't think this is doing "great things" for the gay community... I feel like they are treating Sam like and outcast and a freak, not like he's another football player. By trying so hard to make him not different, they are making him different.

I don't see anything wrong with him having a documentary filmed about him. I don't see anything wrong with him trying to help people or make people feel more comfortable.

It rubs me the wrong way when someone stands up and say they want to be known as a football player. That he doesn't want to be known as a gay football player. Then he doesn't do anything to support that statement. If he had come out and said he wanted to be a symbol, he wanted to help people and all that... then that's cool. Just don't be a massive hypocrite. Don't hide stuff from the team that drafted you and decided to employ you... because that doesn't just impact you, it impacts them and it impacts your teammates.

[Kerb Hohl]

Yeah, that's annoying but I'll give him some latitude given what he's going to go through. He may get differential treatment but regardless of how he gets it, he's paving the way for one day, both the media scrutinizing somebody like him being cut and also the hate he will get being gone. That's what I think is the key. Somebody had to do it so that the 4th or 5th guy that ends up doing this, we don't hear scrutiny one way or the other when he is drafted or cut. The baggage is going to have to be dealt with.

[Kerb Hohl]

Newz, you said several times earlier in the thread that "you don't care what choice people make in the bedroom" as your view of them being gay. That was the reason for my tizzy I went into, because there is a lot more to it than that. If you're beyond that now, that is good and I apologize.

[Newz]

Newz, you said several times earlier in the thread that "you don't care what choice people make in the bedroom" as your view of them being gay. That was the reason for my tizzy I went into, because there is a lot more to it than that. If you're beyond that now, that is good and I apologize.

I do think it is a choice as much as it is a choice on who a straight person chooses to sleep with. Just like it's a choice who they enter into relationships with. I think the choice is seperated when you start talking about who they are attracted to... that is a different discussion entirely as you start talking about biological urges and all that stuff.

I wasn't saying it in a sense that he was CHOOSING to be gay so much as he is choosing his partner like anyone would.

[Kerb Hohl]

That one flew over my head a bit. Sure, everyone has a choice in the end as to who they go after. I guess my question is why do you and others only mention the bedroom portion of things? You said "who he chooses to sleep with" in today's first post which is what I asked about.

[Newz]

That one flew over my head a bit. Sure, everyone has a choice in the end as to who they go after. I guess my question is why do you and others only mention the bedroom portion of things? You said "who he chooses to sleep with" in today's first post which is what I asked about.

Because being attracted to and engaging in intercourse (and other actions of affection) with someone of the same sex is what makes someone gay.

I guess what you are saying is flying over my head too, because I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

[Kerb Hohl]

Because nothing about Michael Sam having sex has come into the public light, nor does it matter in his football/locker room/Rams experience. Only everything else about being gay does, yet you choose to focus on that. The whole point of it is that players feel comfortable around him, he can have a male companion, etc...it's an argument I hear from politically-charged trolls trying to claim that it's a display of sex, when it is everything but.

OK...done now. Not because I think we shouldn't discuss this, but because the mods will come in and get mad

[Newz]

I will also make one more post and be done with it.

Because nothing about Michael Sam having sex has come into the public light, nor does it matter in his football/locker room/Rams experience.

Yes, things about him having sex have come into public. Maybe he's a virgin, I have no clue. But if he has had sex odds are it was with a man and if he is attracted to someone and wants to have sex with them, it is going to be a man. That's why he's gay and not straight. It's exactly what he came out and said...

Only everything else about being gay does, yet you choose to focus on that. The whole point of it is that players feel comfortable around him, he can have a male companion, etc...it's an argument I hear from politically-charged trolls trying to claim that it's a display of sex, when it is everything but.

I think you are way overthinking this. Only everything else about being gay does? Gay people, in my opinion, are just like everyone else other than they are attracted to and/or engage in intercourse with people of the same sex. Maybe you are referring to the 'struggle' of people making fun of him of him or attacking him? But they are still doing that because of his sexual orientation... so it still matters and it's still the defining reason why any of this is being talked about in the first place.

It all revolves around sex and sexual attraction. That's why he's gay and straight people are straight. Like I said... I still don't even understand what you are getting at. It's almost like you are trying to convince me that gay people are completely different than straight people even outside of their sexual preference/orientation.

[Kerb Hohl]

No one cares what you do in the bedroom (at least they shouldn't) and who you do it with. Shut up, work out, get drafted and play football.

This is from way earlier in the thread and what I'm not getting. Yes, being attracted to the same sex makes you gay. No, the sexual part of a relationship is not what people care about in the NFL experience, and I am wondering why you keep trying to focus on that and then act naive about it.

If you were a straight pro athlete, assuming there are no sex tapes nor are there crazy Travis Henry-type scandals, what you do in the bedroom is, yes, 100% private, just like the likely closeted homosexual players have nothing come out.

However, let's imagine you're straight and you're drafted. You kiss your girlfriend on the video when you get drafted, you take your wife to the team charity golf event, you may be single and have tabloid releases that you are dating a supermodel.

Now let's compare this apples to apples:

Kerry Rhodes has a picture released of him [NOT HAVING SEX WITH] in what looks to be a relationship with a man. He has to explain himself (probably lying) and he's essentially blacklisted from the NFL. Eddie Lacy would not have this problem (let's assume he's straight). If a picture was released of him with a woman on his lap, the entire country, league, and players would just go about their business. Until now, if Michael Sam was holding hands with a guy without coming out of the closet, it would be massive news. This is what Sam is opening the doors to. Somebody not having to live something that should be completely comfortable, uncomfortably hidden. In general, nobody, gay or straight, makes their actual sex life public.

Unless you're just trying to play some interesting semantics game with me, what he does behind closed doors, just like 99% of the rest of the straight players in the league, is not an issue. What he does in the public eye is what Sam and every other closeted homosexual has to worry about, and it is why this is a big deal in society, because it is still not fully accepted (see: his draft video reactions).

[Newz]

Like I said, I'm done with it. I could continue on but I don't want to get banned.

Just know that you are accusing me of a lot of things I never said or never implied. I don't want you to post and for people to read this only to think "Oh, he finally got that bigot good! That shut him up!". It's odd to agree with someone but have them argue with you so much. I've never told people that everyone should be treated equally and then been accused of stuff like this until I have held discussions about race or sexuality on this board. I've never told people that everyone should be treated equally only to have them bring up examples like you did with Rhodes and Lacy where I clearly agree, though for some reason you think I am blind to.

Just because I don't use the same PC terminology that everyone else falls into doesn't mean that I disagree, it doesn't mean I am blind or uneducated. It just means that I don't let the news networks and the media tell me how to express myself.

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm honestly not calling you a bigot here at this point. It's more the fact that from the beginning of the thread, the magnitude of what he's going through/is doing might have been minimized. Maybe I'm not understanding your semantics correctly. I'm not sure exactly how you actually feel about it, nor do I necessarily care, I just think since the beginning of this, you had maybe been missing what the magnitude of this actually is.

In the beginning, you tried to point out that his sexuality is a private matter and not a big deal, when in fact in today's society, especially the NFL, it is a big deal to many people and also a very public matter (everything not having to do with sex). If we can agree on that, then I'm not overly concerned with the semantics of how it is understood.

[El Duderino]

I have no problem with him being gay or him talking about him being gay. When did I say that I did?

I have a problem with the media cramming it down my throat because it's obnoxious. Just like it was obnoxious when they did it (and still do it with Manziel). It was obnoxious with Tebow and it's obnoxious with LeBron. It's obnoxious with Kobe, with the Knicks and with a lot of the teams. In this case I think it's worse because I personally don't think this is doing "great things" for the gay community... I feel like they are treating Sam like and outcast and a freak, not like he's another football player. By trying so hard to make him not different, they are making him different.

I no longer sweat the media over-obsessing any topic because i have the ability to simply change the channel, which i do all of the time if i'm not interested in something being shown.

The media is how it is and never will change, so i stopped caring much years ago given i don't have to watch anything i don't wanna watch. So i end up DVR'ing most things which i watch and just fast forward right through anything which annoys or bores me.

As for Sam, i thought the media coverage of him was overboard to a degree, but i fully expected that to happen. On draft night i watched with interest his story/situation, but since that night if say i'm watching Sportscenter and he gets talked about, i'll just fast forward through his segment not because the obsessing angers me, but instead because i'm already bored of his story. If he wants to do this documentary, i don't care either way, but i won't spend my free time watching simply because it doesn't interest me beyond if he can play well enough to make the team.