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Moss could be cut

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Post#41 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:31 pm

Jollay wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Stop. If you can't see Favre's value over Charlie Frye's alone, you're just being ridiculous, or the value of just a guy who has played as long as Favre over the Browns QBS you are just being silly.

Hey, Steve McNair's value has slipped a little too. As has his mobility. And his accuracy.

And the Ravens are thanking God they have him starting right now every frickin minute.


Actually, you're right. The Ravens would be a better comparison. McNair and Favre are pretty comparable at this point in their careers.
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Post#42 » by Jollay » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:38 pm

Here's another name to throw out.

If the opener is any indication, the Titans made an incredibly smart move with the relatively cheap (one year, $1.8 million) re-signing of running back Chris Brown. All he did was finish with 175 yards on 19 carries

BUT WHOA, TT, 1.8 million!!! Ho, might be too much!!!!!

At least try, dooschbag. Sign ANYONE if not Moss.

Under these circumstances, criticizing Favre is insane.
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Post#43 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:43 pm

Jollay, I'd like you to respond to this post I made yesterday:

DrugBust wrote:Actually, what Ron Wolf did to Brett Favre was criminal.

By his own admission, not getting Favre more weapons was his biggest mistake.

Think about the great free agents he brought in...Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson, Eugene Robinson...all defense. Now think about the first round draft picks he used up.

Terrell Buckley
Wayne Simmons
Aaron Taylor
Craig Newson
John Michels
Ross verba
Antuan Edwards
Bubba Franks
Jamal Reynolds

How come he gets a free pass? Brett Favre was the game's greatest QB for years. But instead of surrounding him with studs, he relied on 3rd, 4th and even 7th round draft picks.

That Super Bowl winning team was amazing. #1 on offense and #1 on defense. There should have been a legit dynasty in Green Bay. Not a one year wonder. After we lost that Super Bowl against the Broncos, Wolfe said that the Packers were nothing but a fart in the wind. Really? No ****? I wonder if he had something to do with that.

Look at what has happened in Indy. If you have the best, play towards your strength. Give that franchise talent the supporting cast he needs.

Look at What Polian has done with Manning

Edgerrin James
Marvin Harrison
Reggie Wayne
Dallas Clark
Joseph Addai
Anthony Gonzalez

All first rounders.

Nobody is ever going to accuse Polian of wasting the best years of the league's best quarterback.

As for Favre, it's too late. Any objective fan can see that his best years are far behind him. The best thing that Thompson could do for Brett is assemble a team that can win without his best game, and he's done that. It's now very apparent: if Favre simply doesn't screw up, the Packers should have a chance to win. If he can take the slants and the checkdowns and not turn the ball over, the defense will win a lot of games.

What he should not be doing is throwing the ball down the field. He missed wide open guys today and threw passes directly into the arms of the opposition. I love the guy, but I don't want to see that gunslinger mentality anymore.


You said what TT has done to Favre is criminal. I contend that it's too late for Brett. He should have been treated to more weapons when he was in his prime.

How do you feel about Ron Wolf?
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Post#44 » by eagle13 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:45 pm

DrugBust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

This is an argument that will never change anyone's opinion. You guys feel one way and I feel another.

My argument boils down to this...

If you put Moss on Cleveland, is he really going to make a major impact? Because that's essentially the offense we have here. Favre's accuracy blows. He's lead the league in overthrows and uncatchable balls now for years. The impact he has in NE simply doesn't equate to what he would do here.


Oh here's your love of Brett n display again.

Of course we can't know for sure. But you were wrong about Moss's decline altogether. Moss supporters were right. So your wrong judgement and assessment would predict your probably wrong about this too!

We do know Moss is still effective.
Cannot agree Moss would not have been effective here.
But I can agree we don't know for sure.

Too bad we can't know for sure b/c TT failed and perhaps wrongly believed like you that Moss could not play anymore.

Regardless of Brett's misses and many completions - It couldn't have hurt to have a guy with Moss's ability on team. Especially when Moss has high respect for Brett.
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Post#45 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:49 pm

eagle13 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Oh here's your love of Brett n display again.

Of course we can't know for sure. But you were wrong about Moss's decline altogether. Moss supporters were right. So your wrong judgement and assessment would predict your probably wrong about this too!

We do know Moss is still effective.
Cannot agree Moss would not have been effective here.
But I can agree we don't know for sure.

Too bad we can't know for sure b/c TT failed and perhaps wrongly believed like you that Moss could not play anymore.

Regardless of Brett's misses and many completions - It couldn't have hurt to have a guy with Moss's ability on team. Especially when Moss has high respect for Brett.


No doubt I was wrong about Moss's decline. The reports of his demise were greatly exaggerated. But I wasn't alone. 30 other teams declined his services for one reason or another.
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Post#46 » by whatthe_buck!? » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:51 pm

livestrong4ever wrote:ahhahahah i LOL @ the people who picked him in like the 5th round of fantasy football drafts!

I thought it was a 4th round pick but whatever. But that would be the reasoning for cutting him because they only gave up a 4th rounder. This guy can't play he couldn't play in oakland and its not like NE needs this guy to win the division or even win the AFC. They have wes walker and stallworth. Stallworth is just like a poor mans randy moss runs fast down the field and can jump for the ball in the end zone. Never goes over the middle.

If Moss wants to be the number 1 guy he is in the wrong place.

Livestrong4ever, while I do hate to do this to you because I like you so much, you have kind of walked right into this one and may just have it coming to you. I have only one question for you:
Do you ever get tired of being right? :wink:
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Post#47 » by Jollay » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:09 pm

DrugBust wrote:Jollay, I'd like you to respond to this post I made yesterday:

-= original quote snipped =-



You said what TT has done to Favre is criminal. I contend that it's too late for Brett. He should have been treated to more weapons when he was in his prime.

How do you feel about Ron Wolf?


Well, that's an excellent post, first of all, and certainly true. Although you have to look at the offense being fairly complete already, and the success of non first rounders like Freeman and Chmura making that offense.

Which of course, you can make the point thats exactly what TT is doing. And as you know, I do think TT is going about making the team the right way.

To analyze, yes I think Favre should have been provided with a little more help in the 2000-2004 range, when the team in general had a much more realistic chance to win it all. I don't think Wolf should get a free pass for that, although I don't think he deserves extensive blame for it, either. I'll take a harder look at it later and get back to you.

However, I DO NOT accept your rationale that it is too late for Favre (although obviously the odds are against him and us). He is still a capable quarterback, and the football world is almost unanimous in that point. (Although again, I concede, that the outside view of Favre, for example with his vaunted 4th quarter comebacks stat, has not really been that relevent for years).

Most importantly, I do not accept that you don't try to improve an area of obvious weakness just because there isn't a good chance you go to the superbowl.

The 49ers aint going but they went out and got Jackson. The Titans have White and another decent back but still spent a little on Brown, and they aint going to the superbowl.

It would be one thing if bringing in a vet put us over the cap or jeopardized the building of the team, and the youth movement, but it simply does not.

Christ we brought in Damir Markota, for Bogut, and we can't bring in one guy for a living legend, especially when we were horrible in the red zone last year and we could obviously use a weapon or two.

And it could be at THREE positions. Who says it'll work? You don't know, I don't know, but you have to at least try.

Especially if you are saying to Brett Favre you want to win now.
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Post#48 » by eagle13 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:41 pm

DrugBust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

No doubt I was wrong about Moss's decline. The reports of his demise were greatly exaggerated. But I wasn't alone. 30 other teams declined his services for one reason or another.


Error likes crowds. Wrong is wrong alone or in a crowd.

Makes those of us who knew better - DT, BP, Dude, + a couple others look smarter than 30 teams.

But Moss could still prove you guys partially right if he fulfils your other prediction and becomes a cancer.
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Post#49 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:49 pm

Thompson apparently regrets not going after Moss harder. So maybe what I'm going to say is a wrong assumption on my part...

But maybe a reason they weren't so fervorous in acquiring him is that they don't see Moss as an ideal fit in Green Bay and part of that is Favre.

I think they may believe that the defense is going to be good enough to carry the team to wins so long as the offense doesn't give the ball away, similar to the Ravens five or six years ago. You couldn't find a unit as bad as their WRs and they probably had the worst QB play as well in the league. Their yards per attempt was 24th in the league. But they went 12-4 and rolled through the playoffs and Dilfer didn't turn the ball over once in the four games.

Now, the Packer D isn't on the same level as the Ravens and they'll need some offensive production, but I think they would prefer to have a ball control offense that takes minimal chances down the field. With Moss, maybe Favre goes deep more than the coaching staff would prefer.

I don't know.

But I think if Thompson really wanted Moss he would have offered more than a 4th rounder.
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Post#50 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:51 pm

eagle13 wrote:-= original quote snipped =-



Error likes crowds. Wrong is wrong alone or in a crowd.

Makes those of us who knew better - DT, BP, Dude, + a couple others look smarter than 30 teams.

But Moss could still prove you guys partially right if he fulfils your other prediction and becomes a cancer.


Well I'm glad you feel you know more about football than 30 NFL GMs. Congrats.
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Post#51 » by BuckPack » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:57 pm

Come on DB, Favre hasn't lost it. this argument is gettign ridiculous. To justify not signing Moss now by saying that Favre is too poor of a QB to use him is approaching unfathomable levels. First it was "moss is a cancer", then, "he's lost it as a player and can't get deep anymore", then, "he can't be in Green Bay b/c we aren't good enough and he'll poison our locker room as he did for poor teams like Oakland and Minnesota." Now that that looks to be 0-4, we're moving onto the excuse that Favre just isn't good enough to utilize Moss' talents???? Are you serious? this has to be tongue-in-cheek, b/c no TT lover no matter how all-encompassing could possibly cloud your judgment that badly.

For pple who think Favre can't throw a deep ball anymore, here's some news for you: He's NEVER been a great deep ball QB! Sure he could chuck it a mile and with a little better accuracy, but the Packer offense rarely went downfield until Sherman came along and only when MS had Javon Walker could we do much in regard to fly patterns and go routes! Do you realize what an elite downfield WR has on deep routes? A HUGE part. Was Brady a good deep ball QB with Troy Brown and REche Caldwell at WR or did he suddenly be able to be a good one once Moss, Stallworth, Washington and Welker have shown up? What are you going to tell me now, Brady has a better arm than Favre?

Jesus, Favre can still hit the 25 yard out, still throw the 25 yard post and hit the runner in stride etc. ad nauseum. GO LOOK AT WHAT ANDY REID said about him before the game. Favre has not lost it-he's still a very good QB in this league!! I think most pple would would agree that he's still a top 15 QB in this league (which by all accounts-including scouts,inc he still is, in fact right around #15), how can you tell me the #15 QB in the league couldn't use Randy Moss at WR?
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Post#52 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:04 pm

A guy that throws 29 INTs and leads the league in overthrows and uncatchable balls is not a 'very good QB'. If he was named Jon Kitna or Trent Green people would be asking for his head.
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Post#53 » by BuckPack » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:07 pm

DrugBust wrote:
Well I'm glad you feel you know more about football than 30 NFL GMs. Congrats.


hahah, I certainly don't think that. But that doesn't mean I don't think TT made a mistake. We all make mistakes, some are just more public than others. TT erred and has admitted it...time to move on: we jsut need to make sure it doesn't happen again. But it also doesn't mean that we can't criticize him for sitting on his hands.

I believe he wanted Moss from the beginning, he juse screwed up in assessing his market value. Big time.
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Post#54 » by BuckPack » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:12 pm

DrugBust wrote:A guy that throws 29 INTs and leads the league in overthrows and uncatchable balls is not a 'very good QB'. If he was named Jon Kitna or Trent Green people would be asking for his head.


A guy who is universally regarded by scouts, GM's and the vast majority of media members across the leauge as a "top 15 QB in the league" is certainly not Jon Kitna nor Trent Green and could certainly utilize someone of Randy moss' caliber at wideout.

Anybody who says otherwise is just trying to justify their argument with seeing only that which they want to see. I'd love to hear someone say to Mike McCarthy, "We have 14 million dollars of cap space, and we're not going to use $4 of it on Randy moss b/c we don't believe Brett Favre is good enough to utilize his talents to justify giving up 4 millions dollars of cap space."

If Favre weren't good enough to utilize Randy moss then he wouldn't let himself come back....unless you're now goign to pull an xtitan and claim he' sonly back "for the records" now too...
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Post#55 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:22 pm

I think he came back because he likes playing football and doesn't want to get into coaching or broadcasting.

I admitted I was wrong about Moss's health and ability. But so were a lot of people, including scouts who last spring believed Moss to be well past his prime.

As for how Moss fits with the Packers, I still say he doesn't. Put him in an offense that's loaded and a QB that's maybe the most accurate in the NFL and you saw yesterday what can happen. Put him in an offense that might be the worst in the league with a QB that is among the least accurate and I can only imagine the train wreck that would come about.

As for Moss and how much Thompson wanted him, proof is in the pudding. He placed more value on a third round pick. How much do you really think he wanted Moss?
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Post#56 » by eagle13 » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:23 pm

DrugBust wrote:-= original quote snipped =-

Well I'm glad you feel you know more about football than 30 NFL GMs. Congrats.


I never said that. I said "makes us look smarter".

Anyway your the one that lumped yourself in with other 30 GMs.

And I do feel sorta good that I was right. But not really b/c my knowing did not stop TT from screwing up. I have no impact. TT matters. I don't care that much about me being right as much as I care about TT being right. I care about the PAck.

Just so happens I am right is beside the point.

The point is TT blew it and even he admitted in article he was perhaps too conservative with Moss situation. At least he's man enough. I give him credit.

TT KNEW Moss was worth bringing to GB - you don't understand that - TT just screwed up being too cheap with a 4th rd pick.
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Post#57 » by ReasonablySober » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:32 pm

If he really wanted Moss and didn't offer more than a 4th, then yup, he blew it.
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Post#58 » by xTitan » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:50 pm

Moss had a great game....its 1 F'ing game...if he plays all season like this I will easily admit I am wrong....he is still a major a-hole and a pud.....I still don't believe he would put up near the numbers in GB that he will put up in NE, because of the style of offense and and the talent around him....NE's offensive line is far superior and he is playing with a GREAT QB, who will probably be league MVP this year if he stays healty, far superior long ball thrower to Favre at this place and even the biggest Favre apologists have to admit that (assuming Favre apoligist is not a brain disease). GB has an awesome defense and very good special teams.....there offense will improve they have 3 talented recievers.....the key is the offensive line, they are brutal, if they get it together GB will be just fine....as long as they don't turn the ball over alot.
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Post#59 » by BuckPack » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:01 pm

DrugBust wrote:If he really wanted Moss and didn't offer more than a 4th, then yup, he blew it.


apparently al davis would have taken the #5 from the pack and the $4 million to moss. But TT kept jerking AL DAVIS around, so Davis got sick and tired of it and gave him to Belicheck (of whom he didn't want to trade with).

TT blew it, no question about it.
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Post#60 » by Fandom » Mon Sep 10, 2007 7:32 pm

I find it absolutely hilarious that this Moss thing is still being discussed.

We can all sit here and fling mud at each other talking about the "what if's" until the cows come home, but it's not going to change a damn thing.

Moss is a Patriot, not a Packer. Let's just accept that and move on. Nothing is going to change. The only place you'll see Moss in a GB uniform is on your Madden 08 fantasy team.

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