Packers 2020 Offseason Thread - Packers Talking Extension with Aaron Jones

[RRyder823]

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[RRyder823]

QBR was designed to take a lot of that into account. Also never said I would rather have Carr. Just said that Rodgers season last year was worse statistically than Carr.

I wasn't arguing that Rodgers was better statistically.

Actually you were trying to argue that. It was quite literally a look at the stats point

You just only used a single stat that fit your narrative and now have backed off

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

QBR was designed to take a lot of that into account. Also never said I would rather have Carr. Just said that Rodgers season last year was worse statistically than Carr.

I wasn't arguing that Rodgers was better statistically.

Actually you were trying to argue that. It was quite literally a look at the stats point

You just only used a single stat that fit your narrative and now have backed off

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

And it was one point. I made a statistical point, yes. Was that my greater point? On the whole that was not my argument, and if you think that it was, you're out of touch. Where the hell was I sitting here saying Rodgers had a better completion percentage, threw more touchdowns, blah blah blah? I literally said that QB was a nuanced position and Aaron has decisive advantages in a lot of areas over average, and I stated it more than once.

I want to see it in writing. "The 2019 Green Bay Packers would have been better off with Derek Carr at QB," go ahead and embarrass yourself.

[RRyder823]

I wasn't arguing that Rodgers was better statistically.

Actually you were trying to argue that. It was quite literally a look at the stats point

You just only used a single stat that fit your narrative and now have backed off

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

And it was one point. I made a statistical point, yes. Was that my greater point? On the whole that was not my argument, and if you think that it was, you're out of touch. Where the hell was I sitting here saying Rodgers had a better completion percentage, threw more touchdowns, blah blah blah? I literally said that QB was a nuanced position and Aaron has decisive advantages in a lot of areas over average, and I stated it more than once.

I want to see it in writing. "The 2019 Green Bay Packers would have been better off with Derek Carr at QB," go ahead and embarrass yourself.

Sorry. You already did that by asserting that there are only about 5 guys that have been better then him the last 2 years and then when I asked why based on the stats you decided to try and use a single stat to prove your point while neglecting the other stats as a whole and topped it off with a straw man argument as a way to hedge your bet (which is why I ignored it) when those stats were provided

By most statistical measurements Rodgers has been a average QB the last 2 seasons. This is also backed up by the eye test and/or the fact that his overall play cratered if Aaron Jones wasn't on the field. (When Jones was playing it was elite though). That's not to say he's been bad. Its only to say he's been average.

So ill ask again. By what measurement has Rodgers been a top 6 QB the last two seasons?

(my guess is its everyone else's fault)



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

Sorry. You already did that by asserting that there are only about 5 guys that have been better then him the last 2 years and then when I asked why based on the stats you decided to try and use a single stat to prove your point while neglecting the other stats as a whole and topped it off with a straw man argument as a way to hedge your bet (which is why I ignored it) when those stats were provided

By most statistical measurements Rodgers has been a average QB the last 2 seasons. This is also backed up by the eye test and/or the fact that his overall play cratered if Aaron Jones wasn't on the field. (When Jones was playing it was elite though). That's not to say he's been bad. Its only to say he's been average.

So ill ask again. By what measurement has Rodgers been a top 6 QB the last two seasons?

(my guess is its everyone else's fault)



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Oh yeah? I'd love to know where I did that. The irony.

Never mind my not presenting a straw man at all. You're sitting there using passing statistics to qualify your "average" position. If you take QBs that were better statistically, as in how you're framing your argument, it should stand to reason that this team would be better with a QB with better statistics. In refusing to acknowledge that that's how you're framing your own argument, you're undermining it. Unless you'd like to admit that there's a lot more that goes into the position than those statistics? In which case, your hierarchal statistical rankings can be thrown directly out the window right along with your reasoning for "hE's AvErAgE."

[RRyder823]

Sorry. You already did that by asserting that there are only about 5 guys that have been better then him the last 2 years and then when I asked why based on the stats you decided to try and use a single stat to prove your point while neglecting the other stats as a whole and topped it off with a straw man argument as a way to hedge your bet (which is why I ignored it) when those stats were provided

By most statistical measurements Rodgers has been a average QB the last 2 seasons. This is also backed up by the eye test and/or the fact that his overall play cratered if Aaron Jones wasn't on the field. (When Jones was playing it was elite though). That's not to say he's been bad. Its only to say he's been average.

So ill ask again. By what measurement has Rodgers been a top 6 QB the last two seasons?

(my guess is its everyone else's fault)



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Oh yeah? I'd love to know where I did that. The irony.

Never mind my not presenting a straw man at all. You're sitting there using passing statistics to qualify your "average" position. If you take QBs that were better statistically, as in how you're framing your argument, it should stand to reason that this team would be better with a QB with better statistics. In refusing to acknowledge that that's how you're framing your own argument, you're undermining it. Unless you'd like to admit that there's a lot more that goes into the position than those statistics? In which case, your hierarchal statistical rankings can be thrown directly out the window right along with your reasoning for "hE's AvErAgE."

Simply stating that a position is "nuanced" as an argument is 100% a strawman.

Now if you expect me to say the Packers would've been better with a different average QB then I won't. I will say they would've been about the same. Because well average is average.

You've still yet to actually give any reasons on why he's been better then average. But by all means continue on. (oh I know "nuanced"). Here's some nuance though. The Packers offense was elite, and Rodgers was actually really good also, with Aaron Jones on the field and both the Packers offense and Rodgers were absolutely dreadful (like horrible) when Aaron Jones wasn't.

If a player absolutely sucks when you remove one player from the lineup chances are he's not in the top tier anymore and is instead an average player who, like most average players, will look better when surrounded by top talent and will crater when he isn't

Just one single decent argument. Problem is you don't actually have one

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[RRyder823]

Imagine having a chance to to get four or five seasons out of one of the best QBs of all time and insisting that you want the offense run in a certain way that DOESN'T necessarily cater to what that QB does well. The offense shouldn't be structured independently of Rodgers. It should be structured AROUND Rodgers. Andy Reid isn't sitting around telling Patrick Mahomes to do less. He's adapted to his player.

LaFleur didn't give us any type of modernized offense. I didn't see imaginative play calling or route concepts. There wasn't overly extensive use of motion to disguise things. All in all, things were pretty vanilla, and given how his fingerprints seem to be all over this draft, personnel won't be an excuse he'll have.

If this was 2011 or 2014 I'd agree with you. But, 2020 Aaron Rodgers is NOT 2020 Patrick Mahomes.

Aaron Rodgers still has more talent in his body than all but 5 guys in the entire NFL. He doesn't need to be Patrick Mahomes to have an offense structured around him with his arm talent. When you have a talent of Rodgers ilk, you build a gameplan around what he does well. You don't build a game plan and system out of thin air and tell him to fit it. Good coaches adapt, bad coaches tell their players to. Build your offense around your personnel. If Rodgers isn't Mahomes was your takeaway from my post, you missed the boat.

But if you don't believe you tried asserting Rodgers is still a top 6 QB here ya go.

Impressive you don't remember it because its literally the 1st post of yours I replied to here saying he's been average the last few years and asked on what grounds you can make that claim on



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

If this was 2011 or 2014 I'd agree with you. But, 2020 Aaron Rodgers is NOT 2020 Patrick Mahomes.

Aaron Rodgers still has more talent in his body than all but 5 guys in the entire NFL. He doesn't need to be Patrick Mahomes to have an offense structured around him with his arm talent. When you have a talent of Rodgers ilk, you build a gameplan around what he does well. You don't build a game plan and system out of thin air and tell him to fit it. Good coaches adapt, bad coaches tell their players to. Build your offense around your personnel. If Rodgers isn't Mahomes was your takeaway from my post, you missed the boat.

But if you don't believe you tried asserting Rodgers is still a top 6 QB here ya go.

Impressive you don't remember it because its literally the 1st post of yours I replied to here saying he's been average the last few years and asked on what grounds you can make that claim on



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Reading comprehension must not be one of your strong suits. The only thing impressive here is how bad your interpretation of that statement is.

The fact that you can read that, quote it, and then claim it says something COMPLETELY different than what it actually says is hilarious. You're just sitting there mocking yourself.

[M-C-G]

Rodgers is a lot closer to average than top 5, with the exception of his INT %.

He ends up with more bad throws,throw aways, sacks and team holding calls which neutralize the benefit of his elite INT %.

I’d be interested in a legit argument not centered around INT % that he is even a top 10 QB the last two years.

I’ve posted a couple times a measure which was “bad plays” and Rodgers I believe led the league two seasons ago. The argument about him struggling without Aaron Jones is interesting as I hadn’t come to that conclusion. Further murky with how good he was without Adams. My hunch is because he didn’t really trust his WR he tended to defer more to the run game on run/pass options and he was more likely to get the ball out as the play was designed vs look for that secondary action.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[WeekapaugGroove]

One thing to note when ranking QBs is it might be harder to be a top 5 guy now than ever before. We're in a good age of QBs, rules make it easier but I think the fact teams in highschool and college throw more than ever has allowed young guys to come in and play well.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using RealGM mobile app

[Profound23]

Barring injury, Love will be a top 5 QB in 5 years

Question is, will it be with us

[humanrefutation]

The whole debate over whether Rodgers is a "top 5" QB in terms of talent or statistics is fairly meaningless. On his best day, I'd take him over anyone. On his worst day, he's pretty average with one elite skill at avoiding picks.

Either way, he's likely to be here for the next couple seasons at least. Here's to hoping we'll see more Godgers from him.

[DrWood]

Is anyone else not surprised that drama-queen Favre tries to create drama?

[RRyder823]

Aaron Rodgers still has more talent in his body than all but 5 guys in the entire NFL. He doesn't need to be Patrick Mahomes to have an offense structured around him with his arm talent. When you have a talent of Rodgers ilk, you build a gameplan around what he does well. You don't build a game plan and system out of thin air and tell him to fit it. Good coaches adapt, bad coaches tell their players to. Build your offense around your personnel. If Rodgers isn't Mahomes was your takeaway from my post, you missed the boat.

But if you don't believe you tried asserting Rodgers is still a top 6 QB here ya go.

Impressive you don't remember it because its literally the 1st post of yours I replied to here saying he's been average the last few years and asked on what grounds you can make that claim on



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Reading comprehension must not be one of your strong suits. The only thing impressive here is how bad your interpretation of that statement is.

The fact that you can read that, quote it, and then claim it says something COMPLETELY different than what it actually says is hilarious. You're just sitting there mocking yourself.

Keep believing I'm the one talking out of both sides.

You said there were only 5 QBs more talented then him right now. I responded asking what you were basing that off of because the evidence points to that not being the case.

You can try and deflect all you want but you have yet to make one legitimate argument to support your point

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[RRyder823]

Rodgers is a lot closer to average than top 5, with the exception of his INT %.

He ends up with more bad throws,throw aways, sacks and team holding calls which neutralize the benefit of his elite INT %.

I’d be interested in a legit argument not centered around INT % that he is even a top 10 QB the last two years.

I’ve posted a couple times a measure which was “bad plays” and Rodgers I believe led the league two seasons ago. The argument about him struggling without Aaron Jones is interesting as I hadn’t come to that conclusion. Further murky with how good he was without Adams. My hunch is because he didn’t really trust his WR he tended to defer more to the run game on run/pass options and he was more likely to get the ball out as the play was designed vs look for that secondary action.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

League ranking for expected points per play with Aaron Jones on the field versus off: 3rd with him and 29th without him

Aaron Rodgers QBR with Aaron Jones on the field and without: 67.7 with Jones on the field versus 28.7 without Jones (yep its that bad)

Those are some pretty striking numbers that point to Jones being the driving force on offense last season. It wasn't that Rodgers simply struggled without Jones on the field. A 28.7 QBR is downright dreadful. You could make an argument for sample size i guess but Jones snap count acounted for 61.5% of the Packers snaps so I'd say that's a large enough sample size on both sides

Also its probably the reason why Gute and MLF decided to double down with another RB early in the draft to try and even out those splits

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

Keep believing I'm the one talking out of both sides.

You said there were only 5 QBs more talented then him right now. I responded asking what you were basing that off of because the evidence points to that not being the case.

You can try and deflect all you want but you have yet to make one legitimate argument to support your point

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Fact of the matter is, unless you've developed something in the real world akin to the basketball in space jam, you're making an unreasonable request. I suppose you could still be struggling to read the words I typed and busy trying to find another way to misrepresent them by drawing your own false equivalencies.

If you have one game, and you have to pick a QB. You're not picking guys like Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Phillip Rivers, Derek Carr, blah blah blah over Aaron Rodgers, and that's because of the talent level. It's also why he's not merely "average" at the position. There's a gap between average numbers, and actually average in terms of ability.

[RRyder823]

Keep believing I'm the one talking out of both sides.

You said there were only 5 QBs more talented then him right now. I responded asking what you were basing that off of because the evidence points to that not being the case.

You can try and deflect all you want but you have yet to make one legitimate argument to support your point

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Fact of the matter is, unless you've developed something in the real world akin to the basketball in space jam, you're making an unreasonable request. I suppose you could still be struggling to read the words I typed and busy trying to find another way to misrepresent them by drawing your own false equivalencies.

If you have one game, and you have to pick a QB. You're not picking guys like Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Phillip Rivers, Derek Carr, blah blah blah over Aaron Rodgers, and that's because of the talent level. It's also why he's not merely "average" at the position. There's a gap between average numbers, and actually average in terms of ability.

And unless you've developed a form of football scouting that is able to see a player at their absolute pinnacle in an ideal environment with absolute certainty instead of looking at a recent body work to project their current ability then im going to choose to use the latter method to guage just how good a player currently is. An argument of "hes better then average because i think he is" isn't a strong argument

Honestly its mostly surprising that one would think that asking for evidence to a claim would be an "unreasonable request"

In any case if you still insist on deflecting then this conversation has reached its limit

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

Keep believing I'm the one talking out of both sides.

You said there were only 5 QBs more talented then him right now. I responded asking what you were basing that off of because the evidence points to that not being the case.

You can try and deflect all you want but you have yet to make one legitimate argument to support your point

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Fact of the matter is, unless you've developed something in the real world akin to the basketball in space jam, you're making an unreasonable request. I suppose you could still be struggling to read the words I typed and busy trying to find another way to misrepresent them by drawing your own false equivalencies.

If you have one game, and you have to pick a QB. You're not picking guys like Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Phillip Rivers, Derek Carr, blah blah blah over Aaron Rodgers, and that's because of the talent level. It's also why he's not merely "average" at the position. There's a gap between average numbers, and actually average in terms of ability.

And unless you've developed a form of football scouting that is able to see a player at their absolute pinnacle in an ideal environment with absolute certainty instead of looking at a recent body work to project their current ability then im going to choose to use the latter method to guage just how good a player currently is.

Honestly its mostly surprising that one would think that asking for evidence to a claim would be an "unreasonable request"

In any case if you still insist on deflecting then this conversation has reached its limit

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

You can guage however you want.

It's surprising when you insist on "evidence" for talent level when you've been around here as long as you have, and then subsequently misrepresent that word in that "I said he was a top 5 QB in the league." Talent is a word used A LOT, we all know what it means, we ALL know it's open to interpretation, and you're sitting there acting like you're oblivious to it. It's dishonest, so that's correct, I have no interest in continuing further with you.

You're free to act like Derek Carr is just as good as Aaron Rodgers because QBR and stats bro, and I'll continue to think it's **** hilarious.

[RRyder823]

Fact of the matter is, unless you've developed something in the real world akin to the basketball in space jam, you're making an unreasonable request. I suppose you could still be struggling to read the words I typed and busy trying to find another way to misrepresent them by drawing your own false equivalencies.

If you have one game, and you have to pick a QB. You're not picking guys like Matt Ryan, Dak Prescott, Jared Goff, Phillip Rivers, Derek Carr, blah blah blah over Aaron Rodgers, and that's because of the talent level. It's also why he's not merely "average" at the position. There's a gap between average numbers, and actually average in terms of ability.

And unless you've developed a form of football scouting that is able to see a player at their absolute pinnacle in an ideal environment with absolute certainty instead of looking at a recent body work to project their current ability then im going to choose to use the latter method to guage just how good a player currently is.

Honestly its mostly surprising that one would think that asking for evidence to a claim would be an "unreasonable request"

In any case if you still insist on deflecting then this conversation has reached its limit

Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

You can guage however you want.

It's surprising when you insist on "evidence" for talent level when you've been around here as long as you have, and then subsequently misrepresent that word in that I said he was a top 5 QB in the league. It's dishonest, so that's correct, I have no interest in continuing further with you.

Its not dishonest in the least. Saying "There's only 5 QBs that are more talented then Rodgers right now" is trying to rank Rodgers in the top tier of QBs.

If you think that's misrepresenting you then I'd suggest you choose your words better

But it is good to know that apparently asking for evidence to support a claim is considered a tall task



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

[skones]

Its not dishonest in the least. Saying "There's only 5 QBs that are more talented then Rodgers right now" is trying to rank Rodgers in the top tier of QBs.

If you think that's misrepresenting you then I'd suggest you choose your words better



Sent from my SM-G975U using RealGM mobile app

Saying he is in that talent bracket, means I said he was in that talent bracket. It DOES NOT say that I thought he played top 6 for the position this past season.

It IS misrepresenting. I chose my words just fine.